Solo Auto's

[Steve76]

Who during their initial training (if you can remember back that far... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="tongue.gif" /> ) performed solo auto practice.. .. .I flew round popping off auto's left, right and centre. I figured that if I didn't have the confidence to do it during practice it would be ugly in the actual. I did fwd, 180, vertical and backwards solo auto's. How many out there know or have performed a backwards auto?. .. .This was the days of no governor robbies and I never experienced any problems. I followed all the precautionary proceedures with Carb heat etc and always left myself plenty of room to recover if it was looking dodgy.. .. .I never thought much about it until recently when I met others who have never performed a solo auto.. . . .I am not advocating that all wannabe's should head off and do this, but I think that having confidence in your ability and finding your personal envelope, helps each pilot to fly the aircraft rather than just strap in and hang on.. .. .A similar personal example. Two years ago the aussies gave me a Fixed Wing PPL in 11hrs without ever doing a spin ( a wonderful idea called 'competency based training' <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="smile.gif" /> ) Spins are not in the syllabus. . .I was fortunate to be able to do some FW time here in Canada where spinning is part of the training and went out with a mate and pointed the bl00dy thing at the earth for a good hour. The improvement in my comfort/skill level in the FW was remarkable. I subsequently was able to repeat the exercise solo and loved the experience. (No Helo pilot enjoys seeing only green rotating in the windscreen ... its very unnatural <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="biggrin.gif" /> ). . . .My end point is that solo student auto's, fixed pedals etc (and fixed wing spinning I guess...) are often frowned upon. They are 'high risk' manouvers but are we training a bunch of nancy's or are we producing pilots. . .If someone is either uncomfortable or not considered able to perform a solo auto, should they have a CPL?. .. .Let the games begin.

[t'aint natural]

Provocative stuff. Allow me to take the bait.. .Anyone who does a backwards autorotation is needlessly endangering his aircraft. You don't need experience of it, any more than you need experience of a 30-knot constant attitude EOL in an R22. One's about as foolish as the other. . .When I was younger I did a backwards autorotation through 360 under the hood in an R22 so the effects on the instruments could be demonstrated. The effect on me was a decision not to fly with that instructor again.. .The purpose of instruction is the preservation of life, and foolish risk should be avoided. You don't need to hot-dog to inspire confidence in a student - with some students, showing off will have the opposite effect. Despite all the bells and whistles we hang on Exercise 16 (here in the UK) I believe that 90 per cent of time spent doing autos (up to PPL standard) should be devoted to recognising the need for autorotation, getting into it, turning towards the wind and having a bash at the flare. In a real emergency, few low-time PPLs will have enough brain capacity for anything more.. .Dissenters form an orderly queue.

[the coyote]

Very provactive post indeed. I have done some solo autos to the ground (when I had around 2000 hours). This was solely to see the effects of a minimum AUW: on RRPM and ROD and to compare the aircraft inertia to the rotor system inertia at touchdown. I came away realising that they are only easier than when you are heavier. As to students doing solo autos I totally disagree. They may develop confidence, however confidence can also be developed (FAR more safely) with a more experienced (and encouraging) instructor next to them. The first 500 hours after training is largely where the confidence building happens if you ask me. The stats of an accident from engine failure is far less than one from pilot error, why add to the risk unnecessarily? Does a parachutist pull his reserve after the main has opened properly just to see if it works?. .. .Other risks I can think of:. .1. Potential development of overconfidence in ones ability without the experience.. .2. The engine has been known to occasionally stop at idle.. .3. Is it legal and/or insured?. .4. Students will talk amongst themselves and develop a bravado/peer pressure thing as to who has done what and how much, how far etc.. .5. One good scare can destroy a lot of confidence for a long time.. .. .As to backwards autos: I've done enough to realise that there is absolutely no real point in doing them. If you have the height and/or time to stop, back it up and then whip it around or regain forward speed, you have plenty of height/time to turn 180 or 360 if need be and do a far more controllable auto with less pilot workload, less ROD, more precise touchdown judgement and a better sight picture of your chosen landing area.. .. .As to "are we training nancy's": If a school and the testing officer for their flight test are worth their salt, they won't issue a licence unless they can demonstrate an adequate level of competency with all the emergencies. The goal of any emergency is nil injury to anyone, on board or on the ground. If they can't demonstrate enough confidence and ability to satifsy that, simply don't pass them on their flight test. There should be no comparison between how radical a pilot's training is (and how radical a pilot in general is) and how much of a "nancy" he is, that's a hot dog mentality in my opinion.. .. .There are tragically many, many pilots no longer with us who I am sure if they could enjoy the benefits of hindsight would not have needlessly pushed the envelope so far. Risk versus gain and I personally don't see nearly enough gain in solo autos for the vastly increased risk.. .. .Of the scares you've had:. .1. How many were your fault?. .2. How many were the aircrafts fault?. .. .I think most pilots find number 1 totals more. In addition to developing ability, I see far greater benefits from a training environment that works at minimising number 1, rather than one (including solo autos) that encourages a pilot to unnecessarily increase risk for minimal gain.. . . . <small>[ 26 March 2002, 02:58: Message edited by: the coyote ]</small>

[heedm]

If students are doing solo autos then accidents, insurance rates, and ultimately instructional cost will rise.. .. .We all will lose in the end.

[Steve76]

Chomp..... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> . .. .Keep it coming guys, this is about the most interesting Rotorheads has been for a while.. .. .Additionally,. .A) They were sanctioned practice.. .. .B) I think we sell ourselves short if all we can expect is to recognise engine failure (My 5yr old can do that...) Lower the collective (repeditive motor skill) and turn into wind (Ahoy there me hearty...). . .Personally I would expect an instructor to expect more of me and would be disappointed if my incompetence or lack of training caused a routine auto to end in tears. I am not paid to "have a crack ... she'll be right" I am expected in my profession to be a professional and know how to do my job expertly. Emergencies are my job and are defining moments when I see the result of my education and practice.They are most definately the most important piece of flying I ever do. . .. .C) True. Backwards is not all that necessary but I do think vertical autos are very useful for aiming to hit the only clearing in the jungle. It isn't always going to be paddock.. .. .D) The gain from solo auto's - not equalling the risk. OK. . .Honestly... who while flying solo out there thinks to themselves "OK what would I do now if the engine stopped..." I am sure every driver thinks this. The benefit from the solo sanctioned practice is the knowledge that YES, I probably could make that area. To my thinking the auto is as rudimentry a proceedure as knowing your emergency checklist for a clutch disengagement or chip light. . .. .Smile team .... this won't change anything.. .Our middle class, white liberal, protectionist, safe secure, insurance controlled society will never allow us to change now. Just be thankful that the system protects us and decides for us how much risk we are capable of dealing with.. .Oh! and remember to Thank God that helicopters were created long before we all came along. . .A flying machine with all those moving parts .... that's dangerous.

[t'aint natural]

Steve: You have to remember that not all students or low-time pilots are as professional, capable and competent as you are.. .In the real world where the civilian PPLs live, you must accept that they will not always be as current, as razor-sharp and as compos mentis as they might be.. .For them, staying alive is primarily a matter of risk avoidance. The student who is taught the proper management of his carb heat is safer than the student who executes a perfect autorotational landing after a carb ice induced engine failure. The PPL who pulls off a great landing with an empty tank is less of a pilot than the PPL who never, never lands with less than half an hour's fuel. Those are the two primary reasons for emergencies (piston-engine) in the real world.. .If they ever have to autorotate for real (once in every 10,000 hours?) they should forget all the backwards 360 into a jungle clearing stuff and concentrate on recognising the problem (your five-year-old's perspicacity notwithstanding) reacting to it instantly, and walking away from the wreckage.. . . . <small>[ 26 March 2002, 08:11: Message edited by: t'aint natural ]</small>

[Have a Chat]

The likelihood of a student rolling it up at the bottom of a practice auto is extremely more likely than the engine actually quitting in the first place! I have to agree with “the coyote” & “ t’aint natural” Although I believe a CPL line pilot who wishes to keep their “eye in” or so to speak, should practice forced landings etc, but not to the ground. This will enable the pilot to keep his or her judgment sharp. I was once told by a C.F.I, to who has over 16000 hrs heli (8000 instructing), that he would on occasions during flight, (obviously without pax) close the throttle without allowing himself prior time to selecting a suitable landing area and then proceed with selecting area etc, just for practice. And stated that this was sufficient in keeping judgment, awareness, and control of his aircraft. He would then save the touch down practice for a suitable location with known terrain just in case something actually went wrong. I like his method, but can understand that a student pilot or a pilot who is not flying regularly is risking more than they might potentially gain! . .. .Just an opinion!

[Whirlybird]

Keep going guys; this is really really really interesting.. .. .Speaking as a 200 hour pilot with a brand new CPL with the ink barely dried yet:. .. .I did loads of practice autos to the ground with an instructor during my CPL course; no problem, great fun, came to really enjoy them and feel...hmmm...sort of confident. Afterwards, there I was, back to paying to hire R22s for fun. So I asked if I could just practice the entry alone, and was first told that no, it wasn't allowed, then told I could. So I did one, and for no accountable reason I was scared stiff. I thought of a million reasons not to bother, had to really psych myself up to do it, and was shaking enough afterwards that I decided once was enough. Why? I have no idea. I'd done them with no help from an instructor loads of time. But doing them solo is different. So does that mean I should practise more, until I get over this block about doing them alone? Or should I accept my own lack of experience, figure I'm scared for a good reason, and leave it for a while, hoping that in a real emergency instinct and/or practice will take over? . .. .Over to you lot.

[RW-1]

My my my !!!! Nice thread! Reminicient of one i began a while ago.. .. .Since I'm passing 100 hours, and obtaining my commercial in the next few weeks, the subject has much meaning for me.. .. .Solo Auto's, well I can go with Coyote on that, light weight being by myself, likely are easier with CFI in ship.. .. .As for going out and up to alt and practicing the entry and part of the glide, I could see myself doing so without too much trepidation.. .. .I see the initial entry and glide as the key to a successful outcome (meaning the likelyhood of me surviving it, not that I may get it down without rolling over, etc.). .. .As I was just given the opportunity over all others training to finally take the 22 solo again (due to losses and insurance, there have been no student or rentals for the last year and a half) and going XC.. .. .I had those thoughts of engine failure, more as I was crossing a series of wires ("Now is when it would happen, be vigilant! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="biggrin.gif" /> ). .. .Do I believe as a student that it would help my confidence? Not really. I may feel better in doing them, but the risks of botching it far outweigh my confidence building at my level of time. Sure, when I go for CFI and do full down's and have to get them in solo, then, at that level of flight time I may feel differently about it.. .. .So far I feel that I am prepared when the engine begins giving indications of failure to begin a powered descent and then auto if things go bad quickly, I'm confident (more like hopeful) I'll heed those signs and perfrom a good entry, be outside and find a spot to set it down on. If I don't roll over, etc afterwards during the slide or touchdown, then I'll just consider that luck, or knowledge imparted to me from my CFI Mike, and some of the things I've heard from all of you over time.. .. .Shoot, right now I'd like to just know I'm ready to go for my checkride, which WILL be happening within the next 4 weeks.

[B Sousa]

Autos to me, are one of those things you have to know. Even done well, the odds are in an emergency your gonna bend some metal. Murphy was a Helicopter Pilot and will be there when you least need him.. .Its expensive in the civilian world, I was fortunate to do all I wanted in Military Aircraft. Its a real confidence builder. It got to be so much fun that at night We used to come in on the runway at 100 ft and 100 knots in a Huey, split the needles and see how far the sparks would go... That was in a different life for sure. Another time in a Cobra I had a Sprague Clutch failure so that at needle split, there was none. Needless to say Im glad it was practice and with needles rejoined I put it in a field LZ and used a local phone for Maintenance.. .All good training and in 30 some years no engine failures. That brings up the point of how much is necessary when chances of failure are very small. The risk of breaking Aircraft in training seems to be so much greater. Owners have different views than Pilots and the controversy goes on........ .As to the 180 Autos. You just cant understand how much fun it is in a Cobra, to do a tight 180 and view your landing spot out of the top of the canopy while in the turn (mind the RPMs)....

[Helinut]

IMHO it all depends upon-. .. .What you mean by an auto:. .(Relatively) high level entry glide and power recovery is different from an EOL all the way to the ground.. .. .How good you are:. .Latent talent, skill level, experience, currency (best judged by an independent observer). .. .What you fly:. .Low MR inertia/high MR inertia; very expensive/just fairly expensive; yours/theirs. .. .What the aircraft owner / insurer (and instructor if you have one) thinks:. .As a stude you really ought to limit yourself to what your instructor thinks you should do. He/she is responsible for you and is in the best position to judge your ability. If the owner/insurance company ban solo autos, then there is no choice. Certainly for a while lots of R22s insurance banned autos other than with a QHI as PIC.. .. .I started as a PPL student on pre-governor R22s, and was lucky enough to have a very experienced “super-instructor”. He authorised a couple of sessions of solo autos towards the end of my PPL course. I did not realise until later that this was quite unusual. I tried to build hours quickly and around 6 months after I got my PPL I realised that I was reluctant to do an auto solo, even though I had done significant continuation training. I did a session of autos dual and then went out and did some solo. From then on, I always tried to do solo autos whenever I could. I learnt a little trick from someone of setting myself up for an auto and then entering auto at the next TX on the RT.. .. .During my AFI rating we must have done hundreds of autos. Many EOLs and I had a great boost in confidence from this. Once you are an instructor, then autos become so ordinary and everyday occurrences that they are not noteworthy at all (which is really the ideal situation for every pilot, of course). As an AFI, we were not allowed to do EOLs until we had some instruction under our belts, and were initially limited to more helpful wind/loading conditions.. .. .As a PPL instructor, I never did authorise a stude for solo autos. During continuation training I did selectively authorise solo autos, usually following a dual session where the considerable differences in auto characteristics were briefed before the solo flight. When I started to do CPL instruction, solo autos were routine (but NOT to the ground).. .. .I used to fly autos a lot doing pleasure flying in a single: nice and gentle entries so that the pax were not apprehensive. Now I mainly fly twins. I only enter autos during training or base checks (touch wood).. .. .It is really a question of risk management, if you want to use jargon. Need to balance the risks of the training auto against the risk of screwing up a real one.. .. .Still fly the R22 for fun though. Got checked out by one of my old students the other day, which was an interesting role reversal.

[muffin]

This is one of the subjects that I often ponder on. As a low time PPL(H) I sympathise with Whirly, as I think that if I ever did pluck up the courage to do one solo, I would probably have the same reaction as she did. The various learned opinions on the subject that I have canvassed range from Never, through Not Allowed by the Insurance Co to Only with Special Authorisation.. .. .Funnily enough, I have no hesitation in stalling a plank wing, although I guess that I would think quite a bit before deliberately spinning it. Solo spins are far more common than solo autos, though the risk of entering those dark and forbidding areas of the envelope is probably similar.. .. .One day, I will ask for authorisation and be told to go ahead. Would I then have the courage to actually do it? Dunno.. .. .If you don't practise it, how do you know you can do it?

[r22dave]

i'm a low time PPL(h) and am very interested in this thread. with my instructor i could bang out auto's all day, no problem. A few hours on, out with my mate and he says what happens if the engine quits? so i did a nice gentle entry, split the needles, no problem recovered and flew off. Then the other day flying along on my own and i felt the chopper yaw a little and thought the engine skipped a beat(didn't) i was there ready to auto(almost buried the collective looked at the needles, fine)after that i don;t mind saying apprehensive of doing a solo auto. i've booked time with my instructor to do some auto's. My reaction was there but even still what a scary thought, that split second sh*t me up no end.

[heedm]

The problem I see with students doing autos solo is they are taught to do autos...just that. They are not taught to instruct autos. They are not taught to identify and recover autos that fall outside a training profile.. .. .It's really quite easy for something to go wrong. Short final you see an animal running across your field. Briefly watch that animal and think "might not land" you may instinctively raise collective. Finally get your head back in the cockpit and you're low level, high speed, low rotor...what do you do? If you haven't already answered you definitely cannot do autos solo.. .. .I'm not an instructor, but I know the ones who taught me had extensive training in autos. Not the training required to save injury and maybe an airframe, the training to safely disengage the engine while in flight.. .. .It's a different story when you're no longer a student. As you gain experience, you become better prepared for surprises. You better understand your own limitations, your machine, and you develop an improved air picture.. .. .As a student there is a skill set that you must learn in order to get your licence. Focus on that. If after obtaining your licence you don't feel you have enough skill in autorotations, then pay for some further training. In that further training, learn how to recover from poor autorotation profiles.. .. .muffin you asked, "If you don't practise it, how do you know you can do it?". .. .If you do practice it you still don't know you can do it. The practice is just to develop skills and reflexes...it doesn't assure you can do anything.. . . . <small>[ 26 March 2002, 22:38: Message edited by: heedm ]</small>

[the coyote]

I guess some things I've learnt from doing truckloads of autos to the ground in R22's during my instructing days.... .. .1. If you inadvertantly push full left pedal in the R22 after you close the throttle, there is a very real chance that the next thing you know you are the best part of upside down and then possibly without a tail boom or main rotor or long to live.. .2. RRPM overspeed prevention and general RRPM management is one of the more common things an instructor does teaching autos and always because the student is distracted with other tasks. Solo autos in my opinion will inevitably lead to RRPM excursions beyond limits with potentially very serious safety implications.. .3. Mr Murphy will always find ingenious ways to try to bite you when you never expect it, and we are not playing games here, I have had a few experiences teaching autos where for a second or two it could have gone either way with serious consequences.. .. .For the students/low time pilots and your concerns:. .. .During your training there is always ways to improve your autos which your instructor no doubt suggests to you, and it is imperative that you can do them adequately. If you can consistently say to yourself when doing autos - on that last one I need to improve on this or that, but had it been for real I would have been unhurt, then I think you should feel reasonably confident in yourself should it happen for real. Know all your auto stuff backwards, but never forget the basics. In my opinion, at the end of the day if all you do is:. .. .1. Get the collective down immediately.. .2. Establish the R22 at close enough to 55 Kts (into wind if you can). .3. Flare at the bottom positively enough to lose ALL your groundspeed. .4. GET IT LEVEL FOR THE TOUCHDOWN. .5. Use all the collective when the aircraft is within a couple of feet of the ground give or take, (which I think you will do naturally anyway). .. .You will be very unlucky to be injured, let alone anything worse in my opinion. Even severe upright vertical impact is better than rolling it over, thats what they're designed for and hence point 3 and 4.. .. .Steve76 and all, one thing I have learnt as an instructor is there are always some personalities amongst students that do things when they know they shouldn't or do them spontaneously or do them for no real reason that they can explain afterwards. I wonder if threads like these, while controversially interesting, may plant seeds in the minds of those type of people. If you look at the stats on the many training accidents from autos, isn't it risky enough dual let alone solo? And the most dangerous risks are the ones you aren't even aware of. Some students may not share the same skill or proficiency or good fortune you had when you rolled off the throttle solo.. .. .I cannot stress this more to all student pilots: DO NOT do solo autos.. . . . <small>[ 27 March 2002, 05:25: Message edited by: the coyote ]</small>

[Hughes500]

There seems to be confusion here, or perhaps it is me. An autorotation is airflow reversal through the disc achieved by bottoming the collective. I teach all my students to do this ( obviously) and encourage them to do it solo after I have shown them how to regain airsped and RRPM if things go wrong. Quite frankly if a PPLH cannot enter autorotation on his own without risking himself or the aircraft he should not be flying.. .. .Now an engine off landing solo, this is different, under no circumstance should this be done without an instructor for all the reasons - death, injury, damaged ac, damaged pride, loss of confidence, increased insurance premiums etc etc.. .. .If a PPLH cannot drop into auto instinctively what hope has he got when the donkey does fail ? Better to put it in to auto immediately and then be embarrassed to find the engine hasn't quit then to be embarressed when the engine does quit and you haven't been quick enough to get it in to auto. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

[oldbeefer]

I appreciate the difference between PPL and military students, but when I instructed on the Whirlwind, students did three solo engine off landings as "a boost to their confidence". Didn't do much for the QHI's in the tower who was monitoring them! And I wouldn't suggest it with an R22 (reluctant myself unless the wind is &gt;15kts and there only a whiff of petrol in the tank!)

[the coyote]

All of my references have been to autos to the ground. I would also include power recoveries to the hover, although not as risky, I still wouldn't advocate them solo.

[RW-1]

Coyote,. .. .Loved your last post.. .. .Let's cover some of auto's this way:. .. .There are times I do them dual that I really can't believe it was I that did it, except for the fact that Mike (CFI) hasn't had his hands on the controls. That alone is my confidence builder. He may make statements to me about one condition or another, but now it's mostly silence, except for when he announces "power failure", or "quick stop" on a departure <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="smile.gif" /> ). .. .We discussed that it seems to be important that someone at my level of time have the instinct to get the collective down for a good entry when the power failure is real, and I believe I can do that.. .. .One thing I haven't heard yet in this discussion is that of getting to the point where one is outside the aircraft during the auto. I am transitioning to that at the moment, especially for my 180's.. .. .It would matter not if I didn't overspeed (and if in a real EOL, at my flare I may not care too much that I overspeed it right?, though not my intent) and held everything in the green if when getting to the bottom I find out I was along for the ride into a barrier, etc.. .. .Wehn I look at my time and how many things could go wrong in practice, heck it isn't something I want to try yet. Though I don't see the issue with an entry followed by a power recovery higher up as H500 stated.. .. .For myself, I typically won't do something on my own until Mike has stated I can do so, he's the one they would be grilling after I ball it up, IMO.. .. .Are we agreed that no matter what your time level, that being able to enter and establish is more of the goal at that level?. .. .Oh yes, I forgot, we can compare plank stalls to doing auto's, but I wouldn't, for stalling the plank has way less variables to it. Every auto we do is different in terms of conditions, weight, etc. That is one thing that makes it hard to gear up for when doing them. Something like no two are "really" the same.. . . . <small>[ 27 March 2002, 18:30: Message edited by: RW-1 ]</small>

[Vfrpilotpb]

After I had gained my PPLh I started to learn all about flying , in my rush I decided to try a few autos, after my flight I explained what I had been doing to my Cfi, who very patiently explained to me that it was not the wisest of things to do all on my own, so what I do now is evry time I fly I go for a quick Auto with my Cfi, whe now says that I am quite fit to do them any time any where, but I realise that a newish Pilot is putting him/herself at needless risk by practicing on their own, for after all, you cannot surprise yourself with the words "Engine Failure" ....but your pax CFI can! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" /> . .However try it in a B206, and it seems a Non event!. . . . <small>[ 27 March 2002, 20:40: Message edited by: Vfrpilotpb ]</small>