ATPL/CPL Training: Ground School topics
Join Date: Apr 2001
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Say again slowly and Johnnypick,
This probally wont help much as I'm in New Zealand(Hell of alot cheaper to train down here if you go for it)There alot of Fixed wing hours that you can transfer over to your CPL(H) here.You can transfer up to 20 hrs PIC(Must be in the last year),Intrument time(Both actual and Sim,Sim time can be up to 20hrs towards the 40 for a instrument rating).But the bottom line is I transfered from fixed wing to the Spastic Palm Tree and I never had so much fun in my life(Exceprt for the other thing
)The way I look at it is if you are flying a Helicopter the money may not be great but youll never have to work another day in your life
Best of luck
This probally wont help much as I'm in New Zealand(Hell of alot cheaper to train down here if you go for it)There alot of Fixed wing hours that you can transfer over to your CPL(H) here.You can transfer up to 20 hrs PIC(Must be in the last year),Intrument time(Both actual and Sim,Sim time can be up to 20hrs towards the 40 for a instrument rating).But the bottom line is I transfered from fixed wing to the Spastic Palm Tree and I never had so much fun in my life(Exceprt for the other thing
)The way I look at it is if you are flying a Helicopter the money may not be great but youll never have to work another day in your life Best of luck
The Original Whirly
Join Date: Feb 1999
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Can I second Helinut's comment that we're not being unfriendly; it's just that we don't know. I saw your post, and hoped someone else would answer it. Despite having recently got a CPL(H), and working on getting another 100 hours (oh, only another 60 needed now
) to do an instructor's course, I can't really answer your question. However, I do know you need 300 hours ROTARY (though not necessarily PIC), to do the instructor's course, because I checked that out. And most pre-JAR qualifications don't seem to count for much. But really, the person to ask is David Patterson at the CAA; he is a CPL examiner for them (maybe the only one, not sure), and the expert on JAR. Actually, I just realised I have his direct number - 01293.573076. Sorry I didn't say before, but I'm in the US for three weeks, with only intermittent Internet access.
Hope that helps, and at least proves we're not unfriendly.
) to do an instructor's course, I can't really answer your question. However, I do know you need 300 hours ROTARY (though not necessarily PIC), to do the instructor's course, because I checked that out. And most pre-JAR qualifications don't seem to count for much. But really, the person to ask is David Patterson at the CAA; he is a CPL examiner for them (maybe the only one, not sure), and the expert on JAR. Actually, I just realised I have his direct number - 01293.573076. Sorry I didn't say before, but I'm in the US for three weeks, with only intermittent Internet access.Hope that helps, and at least proves we're not unfriendly.
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Thanks for the replies.
The reason I asked about wether my fixed wing hours count towards Heli FI rating is that in JAR-FCL 2 it states that you need 300 hours FLIGHT time of which 100 must be solo if holding a CPL(H) or ATPL(H).
When I rang the Belgrano I got the same same response as whirlybird. Sort of. They don't seem to be able to make up their minds especially when I told them I was already a fixed wing instructor. When I asked them to justify why you need so many hours, the phone went strangly silent. The next response was "Oh it'll be coming out in a GID that's being sent round at the moment." To be honest this sounds like they've been caught out and are trying a typical CAA tactic when they don't really know the answer.- Give them any old bull and hopefully they'll accept it as we are the CAA.
I have it from a reliable source (!
!) that this is against the actual thinking behind JAR. I would be very interested to find out if this was the case in other countries in Europe.
If anyone feels like it, it may be an idea if we all ask them the question why and then ask them to justify it. Like most beauraucracies they seem to fold when put under any real pressure.
If we can get this rule changed, I can't see how it can hurt the Helicopter industry. In fact it will probably help as finding the cash for another 200 hours is not easy, and it is certainly putting me off the idea. (Still paying for the fixed wing training!!)
let me know what you all think.
Cheers
The reason I asked about wether my fixed wing hours count towards Heli FI rating is that in JAR-FCL 2 it states that you need 300 hours FLIGHT time of which 100 must be solo if holding a CPL(H) or ATPL(H).
When I rang the Belgrano I got the same same response as whirlybird. Sort of. They don't seem to be able to make up their minds especially when I told them I was already a fixed wing instructor. When I asked them to justify why you need so many hours, the phone went strangly silent. The next response was "Oh it'll be coming out in a GID that's being sent round at the moment." To be honest this sounds like they've been caught out and are trying a typical CAA tactic when they don't really know the answer.- Give them any old bull and hopefully they'll accept it as we are the CAA.
I have it from a reliable source (!
!) that this is against the actual thinking behind JAR. I would be very interested to find out if this was the case in other countries in Europe.If anyone feels like it, it may be an idea if we all ask them the question why and then ask them to justify it. Like most beauraucracies they seem to fold when put under any real pressure.
If we can get this rule changed, I can't see how it can hurt the Helicopter industry. In fact it will probably help as finding the cash for another 200 hours is not easy, and it is certainly putting me off the idea. (Still paying for the fixed wing training!!)
let me know what you all think.
Cheers
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Say again,
We are at least partly to blame for the situation we are now in, in respect of the UK interpretation of JAR FCL and its adverse impact on the whole UK aviation industry, but especially helicopters. We did not raise objections when the thing was around in draft form. We still seem to be having problems in raising coordinated feedback/pressure to the CAA. One aspect that concerns me greatly is the way that you get different answers to the same questions, depending upon who you are and who you ask. The CAA are reluctant to commit to things in wiriting which leaves me concerned as to whether they might try to backtrack if the S**T hits the whirly thing.
As I mentioned in an earlier post, there may be a glimmer of light at the end of the tunnel. I heard that a new version of CAP 53 was/has just been published. (this was the "bible" that set out in detail what you needed to do to get a PPL and other associated ratings - it covered the vast majority of special cases too and was invaluable for instructors and flying schools to refer to). If we get that and a new CAP 54 (for professional licences) at least there will be a hard source of information and some hope of a level playing field.
I would encourage you to raise your question with them, and if it copmes from more then one source, so much the better.
We are at least partly to blame for the situation we are now in, in respect of the UK interpretation of JAR FCL and its adverse impact on the whole UK aviation industry, but especially helicopters. We did not raise objections when the thing was around in draft form. We still seem to be having problems in raising coordinated feedback/pressure to the CAA. One aspect that concerns me greatly is the way that you get different answers to the same questions, depending upon who you are and who you ask. The CAA are reluctant to commit to things in wiriting which leaves me concerned as to whether they might try to backtrack if the S**T hits the whirly thing.
As I mentioned in an earlier post, there may be a glimmer of light at the end of the tunnel. I heard that a new version of CAP 53 was/has just been published. (this was the "bible" that set out in detail what you needed to do to get a PPL and other associated ratings - it covered the vast majority of special cases too and was invaluable for instructors and flying schools to refer to). If we get that and a new CAP 54 (for professional licences) at least there will be a hard source of information and some hope of a level playing field.
I would encourage you to raise your question with them, and if it copmes from more then one source, so much the better.
The Original Whirly
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Say Again,
I know it's written as 300 hours FLIGHT time; I kept querying that too, since I have about 180 f/w hours. That was why immediately after my CPL Skills Test, I specifically asked David Paterson, the examiner, if he'd check it for me. It's JAR, not the CAA. Ron Jenkins of the CAA had been telling people something different, but David Paterson apparently helped write JAR, and is the one who knows, or so they tell me. I was annoyed too, but finally decided to bite the bullet, raid what was left of the savings, earn some more money, and have a couple of flying holidays abroad (not sure this is a holiday, but it's great experience anyway, despite what some are saying on other threads). But I was in a different position from you, with less than 400 hours TT, and really not feeling like I should be teaching anyone anything yet, so I don't mind that much. I agree, it's crazy. I suspect it may get changed. Ring David Patterson and see what you can find out, and please let me know.
I know it's written as 300 hours FLIGHT time; I kept querying that too, since I have about 180 f/w hours. That was why immediately after my CPL Skills Test, I specifically asked David Paterson, the examiner, if he'd check it for me. It's JAR, not the CAA. Ron Jenkins of the CAA had been telling people something different, but David Paterson apparently helped write JAR, and is the one who knows, or so they tell me. I was annoyed too, but finally decided to bite the bullet, raid what was left of the savings, earn some more money, and have a couple of flying holidays abroad (not sure this is a holiday, but it's great experience anyway, despite what some are saying on other threads). But I was in a different position from you, with less than 400 hours TT, and really not feeling like I should be teaching anyone anything yet, so I don't mind that much. I agree, it's crazy. I suspect it may get changed. Ring David Patterson and see what you can find out, and please let me know.
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I've had a thought. If everyone thinks that this is a daft rule, why doesn't we try and get it changed.
As the wording is so open to interpretation a decent (I use the word lightly!) Lawyer would make mincemeat out of them. Instead of just accepting it at face value (p.s Whirly I'm not having a pop) if alot of people and especially companies make noises about this, they will have to change it.
I called the CAA this morning to try and get an answer about Bridging exams, but despite many calls and e-mails I've still not recieved an answer. i.e they don't exist yet.
This situation is laughable, I don't know any company that could get away with acting in this manner. But I'm not going to start an anti-CAA rant, All I want to do is get started with my training.
E-mail me if anyone wants to co-ordinate efforts.
As the wording is so open to interpretation a decent (I use the word lightly!) Lawyer would make mincemeat out of them. Instead of just accepting it at face value (p.s Whirly I'm not having a pop) if alot of people and especially companies make noises about this, they will have to change it.
I called the CAA this morning to try and get an answer about Bridging exams, but despite many calls and e-mails I've still not recieved an answer. i.e they don't exist yet.
This situation is laughable, I don't know any company that could get away with acting in this manner. But I'm not going to start an anti-CAA rant, All I want to do is get started with my training.
E-mail me if anyone wants to co-ordinate efforts.
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Right, I've finally got an answer that makes a bit of sense.
I've just been told that for fixed wing instructors wanting to become FI(H)'s there IS some flexiblity. The reason that FCL 2.335 says flight time, is that it allows some allowance in each individual case. (My god that actually makes sense!!) Also that when actually taking the course there is a dispensation against the ground training, but not the flying side(Again that is sensible).
The amount of allowance is different in each case but personally I should see "about 50 hrs" off the requirements.
For the Ground school subjects until the Bridging exams arrive you have to do 4 of the subjects - A/c systems, Planning and I've forgotten the other two?!:o
I feel better now and Hopefully this may have cleared up any confusion that everybody I've spoken to seems to have had.
JAR don't you just love it!!
I've just been told that for fixed wing instructors wanting to become FI(H)'s there IS some flexiblity. The reason that FCL 2.335 says flight time, is that it allows some allowance in each individual case. (My god that actually makes sense!!) Also that when actually taking the course there is a dispensation against the ground training, but not the flying side(Again that is sensible).
The amount of allowance is different in each case but personally I should see "about 50 hrs" off the requirements.
For the Ground school subjects until the Bridging exams arrive you have to do 4 of the subjects - A/c systems, Planning and I've forgotten the other two?!:o
I feel better now and Hopefully this may have cleared up any confusion that everybody I've spoken to seems to have had.
JAR don't you just love it!!
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I've GOT an ATPL(H) allbeit a German one, you should hear the trouble I'm having trying to convert that into a JAA license in the UK, it's a ****ing nightmare. I sympathise with the trouble you're having but good luck although if you want to earn any money stay with the planks.
PAS. gis a job anyone! I want to come home.....weep.
PAS. gis a job anyone! I want to come home.....weep.
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I've just recieved an e-mail from the Belgrano with some good news!
If you have a CPL(A) with ATPL credits, the only groundschool exam you have to pass is Principles of flight. What a result!
I still haven't got much further about the hours required before doing an FI rating. YET!! Though I've been told by someone at the CAA that the German version of the CAA takes a very different line.
Oh, isn't it wonderful to be in Europe! Now we can tell the CAA "that's not what the French,Germans, Italians etc.. do, Therefore why are you different?" Then sit back and listen to the spluttering!!
If you have a CPL(A) with ATPL credits, the only groundschool exam you have to pass is Principles of flight. What a result!
I still haven't got much further about the hours required before doing an FI rating. YET!! Though I've been told by someone at the CAA that the German version of the CAA takes a very different line.
Oh, isn't it wonderful to be in Europe!
Now we can tell the CAA "that's not what the French,Germans, Italians etc.. do, Therefore why are you different?" Then sit back and listen to the spluttering!!
Helicopter Schools - do they want my money ?
I'm getting a little bit peeved. I will shortly start my CPL(H) modular course, 30 hours, at about £200 per hour. This means I have £6000 or thereabouts to spend with someone.
My problem ? I can't get people to speak to me about it !! I've spoken with the place I fly with normally, as they can do the modular course and I know the place and the people. Despite a few reminders, the guy I've asked hasn't got back to me two weeks after my initial enquiry so I had to ask someone else if they could chivvy him later this week.
I've also contacted another school, less convenient for me but with a reputation which seems good, from what I gather. Left a message, asked someone to get back to me, nothing.
Is it just me, or am I encountering something which isn't unusual ?
BTW, if I get unsolicited emails from people in response offering me their services, I'll read them then delete them without response.
My problem ? I can't get people to speak to me about it !! I've spoken with the place I fly with normally, as they can do the modular course and I know the place and the people. Despite a few reminders, the guy I've asked hasn't got back to me two weeks after my initial enquiry so I had to ask someone else if they could chivvy him later this week.
I've also contacted another school, less convenient for me but with a reputation which seems good, from what I gather. Left a message, asked someone to get back to me, nothing.
Is it just me, or am I encountering something which isn't unusual ?
BTW, if I get unsolicited emails from people in response offering me their services, I'll read them then delete them without response.
Gatvol
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Hey there are some hungry folks in the U.S. that didnt get all your money last time. Check out the HAI site at www.heli.com They do CAA/JAA stuff.........Its in Florida so easier for you to get there.....
Good Luck, dont give up your daytime job....
Good Luck, dont give up your daytime job....
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I needed to do a CAA checkride and approached a UK school. Their response was to give me the CAA number to book a checkride first.
They then proceeded to bend overbackward to accommodate me for the required training for this date. Altogether a very stress free arrangement.
Should you wish to know whom I used please mail me...... Probably then find it's the same place as you can't get a response from!!!
They then proceeded to bend overbackward to accommodate me for the required training for this date. Altogether a very stress free arrangement.
Should you wish to know whom I used please mail me...... Probably then find it's the same place as you can't get a response from!!!
The Original Whirly
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Nr Fairy,
You could try Heliflight, who I did mine with. I'd be surprised if they didn't get back to you if you wanted to do a CPL course. I think it was £195/hr (plus VAT), but might have been £205/hr. I think I blot all these figures out of my mind, because I really don't want to know how much I've spent on helicopter flying! E-mail me if you want phone numbers or any other details.
BTW, you may have to hunt around a bit to find an airfield that's open late enough for you to do the night flying - I gave up in the end and waited for winter. Though I daresay in the south, with more airfields, such things are easier. You can do it separately though, ie not at the school where you do the rest of the CPL course.
You could try Heliflight, who I did mine with. I'd be surprised if they didn't get back to you if you wanted to do a CPL course. I think it was £195/hr (plus VAT), but might have been £205/hr. I think I blot all these figures out of my mind, because I really don't want to know how much I've spent on helicopter flying!
E-mail me if you want phone numbers or any other details.BTW, you may have to hunt around a bit to find an airfield that's open late enough for you to do the night flying - I gave up in the end and waited for winter. Though I daresay in the south, with more airfields, such things are easier. You can do it separately though, ie not at the school where you do the rest of the CPL course.
And I've no doubt whatsoever that my old Alma Mater, Cabair, would be more than willing to relieve you of any spare cash you may have (well, actually, ANY cash, spare or not )
Hopefully the "Recommendation Police" don't shout at me for mentioning names.
)Hopefully the "Recommendation Police" don't shout at me for mentioning names.
Gatvol
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Just butting in again, I still find it hard that you follks in the UK let schools get away with 200 pounds an hour.... You can dam near get B206 time for that here in the sates... Maybe you all ought to get together..
What is the ridiculous price for anyway?? Why so high?? Taxes??, fuel? or just filling someones pocket....
What is the ridiculous price for anyway?? Why so high?? Taxes??, fuel? or just filling someones pocket....
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B. Sousa
That's one of life's great mysteries for anyone involved in UK aviation. It's true the amount of tax we pay on fuel is extortionate, but one thing for sure, the huge difference in price between the UK and the US is not all explained by the difference in fuel price.
I have a lot of sympathy for people trying to get their CPLs. It was always expensive, but I'm not sure I could afford do it if I had to do it now.
That's one of life's great mysteries for anyone involved in UK aviation. It's true the amount of tax we pay on fuel is extortionate, but one thing for sure, the huge difference in price between the UK and the US is not all explained by the difference in fuel price.
I have a lot of sympathy for people trying to get their CPLs. It was always expensive, but I'm not sure I could afford do it if I had to do it now.
The Original Whirly
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Well, I compared fuel prices when I was in the US, and worked it out, and came to the conclusion most of it was due to the HUGE difference in fuel prices. Apart from that instructors earn about twice as much here PER HOUR. But because of the weather they probably earn less overall than in the US. And the weather's part of the problem; aircraft and instructors can be airborne for many more hours in the US than over here. I don't think it's lining anyone's pocket; running a flying school is not seen as a get rich quick scheme. I know schools who would love to undercut their competitors, but say they can't afford to. I only know of one that's a bit cheaper than the figures we've given. They are based at a small airfield and probably have lower operating costs. Apart from that...well, I have my own opinions about them; let's just say you usually get what you pay for.
Helicopter Pilots Get It Up Quicker
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I had a similar problem when I started flying.
I knew that I was going to be spending a lot of money so I faxed just about every school I could find in the UK and US. I can't remember how many that was but the resulting replies speak for themselves:
UK - 4 replies over about 6 weeks
USA - without exception every school replied with literature or a call or both the longest reply was 4 weeks and that came with an apology for the delay in responding.
That's why I learnt in LA! And spent the majority of my money there. (And not just on flying!!! )
I knew that I was going to be spending a lot of money so I faxed just about every school I could find in the UK and US. I can't remember how many that was but the resulting replies speak for themselves:
UK - 4 replies over about 6 weeks
USA - without exception every school replied with literature or a call or both the longest reply was 4 weeks and that came with an apology for the delay in responding.
That's why I learnt in LA! And spent the majority of my money there. (And not just on flying!!!
)
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B Sousa:
One of the fundamental problems here in the UK - and one that is estimated to increase the cost of a commercial helicopter course by almost 50 per cent - is CAA charges.
In the late 1980s we had a free-wheelin' free-market government that mandated that the Civil Aviation Authority (and a large number of other government arms) recovered their entire running costs from the industries they "served". In aviation, of course, that's a very big bureaucracy and a very small customer base.
Everything you take for granted from the FAA has to be paid for in full by the user in the UK. To get a star annual on my R22 signed off by the CAA (and all they do is stamp the document, they don't even look at the engineering work - it literally takes 20 seconds) recently cost me £950 or about $1400. A friend with an AS350 paid almost $5,000 for the same service.
Our biggest training organisation, Cabair, pays about half a million pounds a year in fees to the CAA. Acting as it does as an unpaid collection agent for the government, it also takes the flak for the charges. And don't even start me off about the Public Transport Category Certificate of Airworthiness, a hugely expensive piece of bureaucratic nonsense which cripples UK owners, especially those with low-utilisation aircraft, and only the United Kingdom has to put up with. The rest of the world seems to manage without it.
The upshot is that an R22 costs an obscene amount of money to put into the air in the UK, examination fees (non-existent or very low in most countries) are usurious, and any time the CAA wants more money, they just mandate another requirement and we have to pay.
One of the fundamental problems here in the UK - and one that is estimated to increase the cost of a commercial helicopter course by almost 50 per cent - is CAA charges.
In the late 1980s we had a free-wheelin' free-market government that mandated that the Civil Aviation Authority (and a large number of other government arms) recovered their entire running costs from the industries they "served". In aviation, of course, that's a very big bureaucracy and a very small customer base.
Everything you take for granted from the FAA has to be paid for in full by the user in the UK. To get a star annual on my R22 signed off by the CAA (and all they do is stamp the document, they don't even look at the engineering work - it literally takes 20 seconds) recently cost me £950 or about $1400. A friend with an AS350 paid almost $5,000 for the same service.
Our biggest training organisation, Cabair, pays about half a million pounds a year in fees to the CAA. Acting as it does as an unpaid collection agent for the government, it also takes the flak for the charges. And don't even start me off about the Public Transport Category Certificate of Airworthiness, a hugely expensive piece of bureaucratic nonsense which cripples UK owners, especially those with low-utilisation aircraft, and only the United Kingdom has to put up with. The rest of the world seems to manage without it.
The upshot is that an R22 costs an obscene amount of money to put into the air in the UK, examination fees (non-existent or very low in most countries) are usurious, and any time the CAA wants more money, they just mandate another requirement and we have to pay.