R22 Corner
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 82
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From: NZ Southern Alps
Hi Tip,
I have a copy of the manual, R44 too. Used them both a truckload while instructing. You're question about the contents is a bit broad. Can you be more specific?
Very handy teaching aid in terms of getting students (and others for that matter) to learn about the aircraft and know the basics of the order of things in emergency drills, etc. I would never answer one of my students questions . . . I would always encourage them to find the answer for themselves (maybe with a bit of guidance from me). They always remembered stuff better that way.
GP
I have a copy of the manual, R44 too. Used them both a truckload while instructing. You're question about the contents is a bit broad. Can you be more specific?
Very handy teaching aid in terms of getting students (and others for that matter) to learn about the aircraft and know the basics of the order of things in emergency drills, etc. I would never answer one of my students questions . . . I would always encourage them to find the answer for themselves (maybe with a bit of guidance from me). They always remembered stuff better that way.
GP
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 467
Likes: 2
From: Earth.
Thanks for the responses guys, I already have a copy of the Helicopter Instructors Manual which I use alot!
Just wondering if the R22 Training Manual was really facts and fiqures or if it went into flying and handling technique.
What do you guys find it most useful for?
TiP
Just wondering if the R22 Training Manual was really facts and fiqures or if it went into flying and handling technique.
What do you guys find it most useful for?
TiP
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 82
Likes: 0
From: NZ Southern Alps
Tip,
The Pilot's Operating Handbook, as it's called, is definitely more facts and figures than 'how to do things'. That being said, it describes the procedures to be taken in the event of emergencies, etc, and it does recount some of the dos and don'ts in handling techniques to avoid certain hazardous conditions eg. low-g, etc, by way of safety notices.
I mainly used it to get people to know the aircraft - fuel tank capacity, VNE, autorotational limitations, MAUW, power limitation, etc. That to me was the real benefit of it.
We used to give students a quiz before going for first solo. If you got your face in the manual the quiz was a breeze. I was continually surprised that people would get some of this quiz wrong when the whole thing was written from things we as instructors knew was in the manual!! Go fgure.
The Pilot's Operating Handbook, as it's called, is definitely more facts and figures than 'how to do things'. That being said, it describes the procedures to be taken in the event of emergencies, etc, and it does recount some of the dos and don'ts in handling techniques to avoid certain hazardous conditions eg. low-g, etc, by way of safety notices.
I mainly used it to get people to know the aircraft - fuel tank capacity, VNE, autorotational limitations, MAUW, power limitation, etc. That to me was the real benefit of it.
We used to give students a quiz before going for first solo. If you got your face in the manual the quiz was a breeze. I was continually surprised that people would get some of this quiz wrong when the whole thing was written from things we as instructors knew was in the manual!! Go fgure.
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 467
Likes: 2
From: Earth.
Gas,
I am talking about the flight training handbook (see link below)
http://www.robinsonheli.com/cgi-loca....htm?E+scstore
Think we got wires crossed.
TiP
I am talking about the flight training handbook (see link below)
http://www.robinsonheli.com/cgi-loca....htm?E+scstore
Think we got wires crossed.
TiP
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 82
Likes: 0
From: NZ Southern Alps
Hi Tip,
Sorry about that. Don't I feel like a goose? You know I haven't come across that manual before, and I've got just a couple of hours in Robinsons. Well you learn something every day, don't you?
Maybe you can give me YOUR opinions if you get you hands on it?
Sorry about that. Don't I feel like a goose? You know I haven't come across that manual before, and I've got just a couple of hours in Robinsons. Well you learn something every day, don't you?
Maybe you can give me YOUR opinions if you get you hands on it?
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 171
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From: midcoast US
Tip
I've got the book, which I bought about half-way through my heli rating training.
It's a 3-ring binder with enough paper to be about 3/4-inch thick (19mm, if you prefer). It has 5 main tabs:
1) Flight Training Syllabus - recommends lengths of each flight, what should be covered, and completion standards.
2) Ground Training Syllabus - how much time to spend on a lesson, what should be taught, etc.
3) R22 Maneuver Guide - 35 pages covering everything from straight and level to patterns (circuits), low-G, autos, rapid decel, slopes, run-ons, etc. About all that a PPL should learn, and a CPL should learn if new to the R22. There are descriptions of the maneuvers, airspeeds and alts, how to move the controls, perf standards for PPL/CPL (hdg, AS, alt, RPM, etc.)
4) School Safety Procedures - WX minimums, other safety ideas. Places for instructor to initial approving student's progress.
5) RHC Safety Notices - the same company SN that are in the back of the POH.
I'd say it's worth the cost. But I would have benefitted more if I had had it at the beginning of my training. (The school didn't stock the manual at that time.) When I bought the book, I already had a pretty good idea of all the concepts, just needed practice.
I've got the book, which I bought about half-way through my heli rating training.
It's a 3-ring binder with enough paper to be about 3/4-inch thick (19mm, if you prefer). It has 5 main tabs:
1) Flight Training Syllabus - recommends lengths of each flight, what should be covered, and completion standards.
2) Ground Training Syllabus - how much time to spend on a lesson, what should be taught, etc.
3) R22 Maneuver Guide - 35 pages covering everything from straight and level to patterns (circuits), low-G, autos, rapid decel, slopes, run-ons, etc. About all that a PPL should learn, and a CPL should learn if new to the R22. There are descriptions of the maneuvers, airspeeds and alts, how to move the controls, perf standards for PPL/CPL (hdg, AS, alt, RPM, etc.)
4) School Safety Procedures - WX minimums, other safety ideas. Places for instructor to initial approving student's progress.
5) RHC Safety Notices - the same company SN that are in the back of the POH.
I'd say it's worth the cost. But I would have benefitted more if I had had it at the beginning of my training. (The school didn't stock the manual at that time.) When I bought the book, I already had a pretty good idea of all the concepts, just needed practice.
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 20
Likes: 0
From: Canada
Thanks
Could you point me in the right direction. I found a few bits and pieces but not too much.
Frank has been to France twice to see the diesel, and there are supposedly some big (720) Lycomings showing up, then there was the announcement from Rolls Royce that they are going to make a cheap 250 series turbine in the 300 HP range if they can get a big commitment for it. The only big user in the helicopter field is Robinson.
Lots of rumors, any facts or first hand sighting is sort of what I was looking for.
Frank has been to France twice to see the diesel, and there are supposedly some big (720) Lycomings showing up, then there was the announcement from Rolls Royce that they are going to make a cheap 250 series turbine in the 300 HP range if they can get a big commitment for it. The only big user in the helicopter field is Robinson.
Lots of rumors, any facts or first hand sighting is sort of what I was looking for.
Joined: Sep 2004
Aviation Qualifications: ATPL(H)
Posts: 2,372
Likes: 877
From: Canada
Originally Posted by Air-Five-oh
there was the announcement from Rolls Royce that they are going to make a cheap 250 series turbine in the 300 HP range if they can get a big commitment for it.
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 132
Likes: 0
From: W'n. USA--full time RV
RHC Training Manual: NOT worth getting!
Forgive my rant--but RHC did the industry, and themselves, a disservice by preparing that manual many years ago and THEN NOT IMPROVING IT! A small example: If you read this undated, unrevised factory giveaway carefully, you will detect that it does not provide for governor-equipped R22 control use--and governors have been mandatory on all R22's for over a decade!
The lesson plans are superficial and inconsistent. The maneuvers guide leaves far too many elements up to pilot/flight instructor guesswork. The writing style is careless, frequently failing to specify clearly how flight and control elements interrelate--that is, written BY already-qualified helicopter pilots FOR the same group, not lending itself to the newcomer (nor the new CFI, either).
That said, it is also true that the prevalent standards of Pilot Examiners usually approve of the manual as a bare-bones basis for CFI practical preparation on lesson plans and the like. So it's not so much WRONG as it is woefully superficial and misleading.
We desperately need a quality, carefully-written primary helicopter instructional manual. Currently, the closest one might come would be to cut and paste a skeletal maneuvers manual out of Coyle's Cyclic and Collective, then fill in the omissions with your own writing.
But a) there's too small a market for good-quality (expensive) textbooks in the tiny helicopter market, and b) the examiners and schools have become complacent and accepting of the shortfalls of current texts, so mediocrity becomes self-perpetuating . . .
Dave Smith
Chief Flight Instructor
The lesson plans are superficial and inconsistent. The maneuvers guide leaves far too many elements up to pilot/flight instructor guesswork. The writing style is careless, frequently failing to specify clearly how flight and control elements interrelate--that is, written BY already-qualified helicopter pilots FOR the same group, not lending itself to the newcomer (nor the new CFI, either).
That said, it is also true that the prevalent standards of Pilot Examiners usually approve of the manual as a bare-bones basis for CFI practical preparation on lesson plans and the like. So it's not so much WRONG as it is woefully superficial and misleading.
We desperately need a quality, carefully-written primary helicopter instructional manual. Currently, the closest one might come would be to cut and paste a skeletal maneuvers manual out of Coyle's Cyclic and Collective, then fill in the omissions with your own writing.
But a) there's too small a market for good-quality (expensive) textbooks in the tiny helicopter market, and b) the examiners and schools have become complacent and accepting of the shortfalls of current texts, so mediocrity becomes self-perpetuating . . .
Dave Smith
Chief Flight Instructor
Last edited by Heliport; 29th January 2006 at 10:59.
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 83
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From: Region 5 / Region 4 / and sometimes Region 8?
Originally Posted by pa42
Forgive my rant--but RHC did the industry, and themselves, a disservice by preparing that manual many years ago and THEN NOT IMPROVING IT! A small example: If you read this undated, unrevised factory giveaway carefully, you will detect that it does not provide for governor-equipped R22 control use--and governors have been mandatory on all R22's for over a decade!
The lesson plans are superficial and inconsistent. The maneuvers guide leaves far too many elements up to pilot/flight instructor guesswork. The writing style is careless, frequently failing to specify clearly how flight and control elements interrelate--that is, written BY already-qualified helicopter pilots FOR the same group, not lending itself to the newcomer (nor the new CFI, either).
That said, it is also true that the prevalent standards of Pilot Examiners usually approve of the manual as a bare-bones basis for CFI practical preparation on lesson plans and the like. So it's not so much WRONG as it is woefully superficial and misleading...,
<snip>
The lesson plans are superficial and inconsistent. The maneuvers guide leaves far too many elements up to pilot/flight instructor guesswork. The writing style is careless, frequently failing to specify clearly how flight and control elements interrelate--that is, written BY already-qualified helicopter pilots FOR the same group, not lending itself to the newcomer (nor the new CFI, either).
That said, it is also true that the prevalent standards of Pilot Examiners usually approve of the manual as a bare-bones basis for CFI practical preparation on lesson plans and the like. So it's not so much WRONG as it is woefully superficial and misleading...,
<snip>
For basic maneuvers, I find the FAA's Rotorcraft Flying Handbook (here with a bunch of good stuff) to be a good blend of descriptive and ambigious explainations (flying heli's seems pretty ambigous at times, yeah?) Add Shawn Coyle's Cyclic and Collective, and you've got a some good descriptions of basic through advanced (thanks to Shawn) maneuvers.
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 11
Likes: 0
From: St Louis, MO
Originally Posted by Lunar
Interesting as I remember (from Franks own mouth) "There will never be a turbine powered Robinson" from the horses mouth. Things change I suppose.
Lunar
Lunar
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 185
Likes: 4
From: Downwind of a smelly passenger
R66
I attened the safety course in Decemeber .
Frank had dismissed the diesel engine , could'nt find a unit with the performance needed for the job . So they are looking at a light turbine .
the plans have been put on the back burner a bit but he did confirm the name R66 , It's gona have 5 seats a a luggage compartment and a coulpe of cup holders optional extra's of course.
I have flown the R44 with the factory A/C works well and the vents on the ceiling look well blended into the interior. will be great for that sticky hot summer in USA .
The T-bar is ugly as !!!! and i nearly gave up flying b 4 i began cos it's not what i dreamed a helicopter control to resemble , but it works really well and if you used a modified stick i think you would loose the full travel free movement you have with the t-bar because you sit low in a Robie and under yer knee would just restrict the travel , the standard stick is ok in a s300 cos thats like flying a soccer mom mobile , and other heli's ya sit more upright .
Well if they bring out a cheap light turbine it will be easier for the newer pilots to get some turbine time instead of waiting until the time is right
Frank had dismissed the diesel engine , could'nt find a unit with the performance needed for the job . So they are looking at a light turbine .
the plans have been put on the back burner a bit but he did confirm the name R66 , It's gona have 5 seats a a luggage compartment and a coulpe of cup holders optional extra's of course.
I have flown the R44 with the factory A/C works well and the vents on the ceiling look well blended into the interior. will be great for that sticky hot summer in USA .
The T-bar is ugly as !!!! and i nearly gave up flying b 4 i began cos it's not what i dreamed a helicopter control to resemble , but it works really well and if you used a modified stick i think you would loose the full travel free movement you have with the t-bar because you sit low in a Robie and under yer knee would just restrict the travel , the standard stick is ok in a s300 cos thats like flying a soccer mom mobile , and other heli's ya sit more upright .
Well if they bring out a cheap light turbine it will be easier for the newer pilots to get some turbine time instead of waiting until the time is right
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 573
Likes: 0
From: uk
I am sure Frank will come up with the cheapest to operate turbine and sell lots and lots of them and if it's anything like the others have some odd handling characteristics due to the 'simplistic' design.
A Bell 206 reborn
A Bell 206 reborn
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 369
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From: Europe trying to enjoy retirement “YES”
Info please.
What is the supply situation regarding R22 Main Rotor Blade delivery after the Mandatory Service Bulletin requiring scraping of existing blades?
Many Thanks.
outhouse
What is the supply situation regarding R22 Main Rotor Blade delivery after the Mandatory Service Bulletin requiring scraping of existing blades?
Many Thanks.
outhouse