R22 Corner
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R22 Corner
Scenario:
One pilot solo weighing 12 stone.
Needs to practice engine off landings.
Problem:-
Lower collective,governor off,wind off throttle,speed back to 60/65kts with right rudder.What happens next??
Well,rotor rpm decreases but collective is all the way down.Reducing speed further may help but only in the short term.
Only solution is to wind on the throttle and overshoot because the aircraft is too light with only one p.o.b.
Any ideas??????
Always take a busty blond when practising these exercises???
But what happens if it really quits when solo??
One pilot solo weighing 12 stone.
Needs to practice engine off landings.
Problem:-
Lower collective,governor off,wind off throttle,speed back to 60/65kts with right rudder.What happens next??
Well,rotor rpm decreases but collective is all the way down.Reducing speed further may help but only in the short term.
Only solution is to wind on the throttle and overshoot because the aircraft is too light with only one p.o.b.
Any ideas??????
Always take a busty blond when practising these exercises???
But what happens if it really quits when solo??
Guest
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well i fly r22s and am only 10 and a half stone.
keep 70 knots , the little extra airspeed helps recover to 110% at the end your rrpm shouldnt go below 90%, low i know but it is acceceptable if the rrpm persists in dropping after 90 % you should recover the problem may be in the rigging, talk to an engineer and he should be able to add a more negative pitch when collective is down , the collective will have a higher position in normal flight.
other option is to bring weights with you but if and when you do have a real engine failure( i have had 2 so far) you need to be able to handle the helicopter with just you, and god help you if you are light on fuel at the time as less weight
= less rrpm
[This message has been edited by whatsarunway (edited 18 October 2000).]
keep 70 knots , the little extra airspeed helps recover to 110% at the end your rrpm shouldnt go below 90%, low i know but it is acceceptable if the rrpm persists in dropping after 90 % you should recover the problem may be in the rigging, talk to an engineer and he should be able to add a more negative pitch when collective is down , the collective will have a higher position in normal flight.
other option is to bring weights with you but if and when you do have a real engine failure( i have had 2 so far) you need to be able to handle the helicopter with just you, and god help you if you are light on fuel at the time as less weight
= less rrpm
[This message has been edited by whatsarunway (edited 18 October 2000).]
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uncle joe,
you dont say how many hours you have on an r22. Suggest strongly you practise autos with an instructor and dont worry about weight of a/c with 1 pob. minimum weight well below 12 stone! what rudder?
whatsarunway,
pilot operating manual doesn't mention 70kts or 105% rpm, 10.5 stone also above min pilot weight. redline for rpm is 90%, why try 85%.
No offence guys, but you seem to be guessing.
This could add to statistics!
you dont say how many hours you have on an r22. Suggest strongly you practise autos with an instructor and dont worry about weight of a/c with 1 pob. minimum weight well below 12 stone! what rudder?
whatsarunway,
pilot operating manual doesn't mention 70kts or 105% rpm, 10.5 stone also above min pilot weight. redline for rpm is 90%, why try 85%.
No offence guys, but you seem to be guessing.
This could add to statistics!
Guest
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Uncle joe,...
I can just go along with what some other people have to say here. With 1600hrs fixed wing and having just passed the R22 ride, you are taking, without any offense, a pretty good chance of becoming a statistic by practicing solo autos.
I know it is very tempting, but for your best, leave it alone. Practice with an instructor and hope for the best if you should have a real engine failure on your own.
As for the RPM- the R22/ R44 is not a very forgiving machine. As long as you are above the minimum aircraft weight, which a normal R22 with standard equipment and at least one pilot oboard
always is, you should be able to contain and maintain RPM. If not, you may have an engineer check the rigging of the blades since it seems very strange.
Now when you are light, yes, you may not be able to recover or only slowly recover the lost RPM.
Don't listen to suggestions of having your RPM down below 90%- there is no need for it and by the end of the flare, every percent counts.
The only time you could consider the RPM in the mid 90 range is if you are looking for the max glide distance.
S-turns as someone suggested, doesn't help. You may increase the loadfactor temporarlily, but as you roll out of a turn you are back to square one. However, it is a good way of adjusting your glide distance to hit a spot.
The pedal input will not have any significant result on your RPM. Yes, it does create more drag on the aicraft if you are out of trim, but that will only increase your rate of descent, not affect your RPM.
If you ever should have the chance, attend the Robinson Pilot Safety Course.
For the meantime, please, may I suggest agai to stay away from solo autos, it would be a pitty to read about you in a safety bulletin.
I can just go along with what some other people have to say here. With 1600hrs fixed wing and having just passed the R22 ride, you are taking, without any offense, a pretty good chance of becoming a statistic by practicing solo autos.
I know it is very tempting, but for your best, leave it alone. Practice with an instructor and hope for the best if you should have a real engine failure on your own.
As for the RPM- the R22/ R44 is not a very forgiving machine. As long as you are above the minimum aircraft weight, which a normal R22 with standard equipment and at least one pilot oboard
always is, you should be able to contain and maintain RPM. If not, you may have an engineer check the rigging of the blades since it seems very strange.Now when you are light, yes, you may not be able to recover or only slowly recover the lost RPM.
Don't listen to suggestions of having your RPM down below 90%- there is no need for it and by the end of the flare, every percent counts.
The only time you could consider the RPM in the mid 90 range is if you are looking for the max glide distance.
S-turns as someone suggested, doesn't help. You may increase the loadfactor temporarlily, but as you roll out of a turn you are back to square one. However, it is a good way of adjusting your glide distance to hit a spot.
The pedal input will not have any significant result on your RPM. Yes, it does create more drag on the aicraft if you are out of trim, but that will only increase your rate of descent, not affect your RPM.
If you ever should have the chance, attend the Robinson Pilot Safety Course.
For the meantime, please, may I suggest agai to stay away from solo autos, it would be a pitty to read about you in a safety bulletin.
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Tiltrotor
Thanks for your comments.The big difference between having 30 years flying fixed wing and a novice at helicopters is in fixed wing during engine failure/stalls the nose is pushed down to increase airspeed and obtain optimum glide speed wheras in the hlicopter the airspeed is brought back by raising the nose to achieve 65kts.
I am quite capable of doing this reversal
even though I am old and decrepid!!
I cannot see the logic in disuading pilots not to practice solo engine failures when they may need to react one day to the real thing.
Other than changing the rigging on the r22,and I may hire a different one each time,how do you stop the revs dropping below 90%??
Methinks some balast under the pax seat is the only answer.
Thanks for the help anyway.
Thanks for your comments.The big difference between having 30 years flying fixed wing and a novice at helicopters is in fixed wing during engine failure/stalls the nose is pushed down to increase airspeed and obtain optimum glide speed wheras in the hlicopter the airspeed is brought back by raising the nose to achieve 65kts.
I am quite capable of doing this reversal
even though I am old and decrepid!!
I cannot see the logic in disuading pilots not to practice solo engine failures when they may need to react one day to the real thing.
Other than changing the rigging on the r22,and I may hire a different one each time,how do you stop the revs dropping below 90%??
Methinks some balast under the pax seat is the only answer.
Thanks for the help anyway.
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Uncle joe's... m.b.
Regrading your question about the RPM, as I said earlier, if you have the collective fully down, during an established glide (power off) at 65 KIAS, you should not have to worry about the RPM being to low and not recovering.
I have plenty of experience in both the R22/R44 and as a normal weight pilot- no trouble. If you cannot contain the RPM, then there has to be something else wrong.
The above is based though on an immediate entry meaning collective fully down instantaneoulsy. You don't have the inirtia of a Bell 212 rotor and if you don't lower the collective immediately, it is quite possible for the RPM to droop of and only recover very, very slowely. Still, it should recover if all is OK with the rotor rigging.
About practicing autos, by no means would I like to discourage anybody from practicing emergency procedures. However, having trained many people in the R22 and R44, amongst them, like yourself, very experienced fixed wing pilots, I would just strongly urge you to think about it twice in an R22 especially at the early stage in helicopters you are in.
As I said, it is a great training helicopter, never the less very unforgiving.
Training autos with an instructor in the R22 can be much more rewarding then solo. If you have passed your checkride I guess you will stand a fair chance living through an auto.
However, only continuous instruction to an advanced level will teach you how to successfully walk away, pick up another machine and go flying again.
And the thing about the R22 also is that establishing the glide isn't the hardest. Most hard landings occur during power recoveries, due to the fact that people overcontrol the aircraft, have difficulties coming out of turns resulting in generally low RPM, the speed is being bled off and there you go....
I hope you understand my scenario- it is absolutely not a critique on your pilot judgement, just a suggestion. Just like I wouldn't go out in a fixed wing during my first solo and practice steep spirals.
Regrading your question about the RPM, as I said earlier, if you have the collective fully down, during an established glide (power off) at 65 KIAS, you should not have to worry about the RPM being to low and not recovering.
I have plenty of experience in both the R22/R44 and as a normal weight pilot- no trouble. If you cannot contain the RPM, then there has to be something else wrong.
The above is based though on an immediate entry meaning collective fully down instantaneoulsy. You don't have the inirtia of a Bell 212 rotor and if you don't lower the collective immediately, it is quite possible for the RPM to droop of and only recover very, very slowely. Still, it should recover if all is OK with the rotor rigging.
About practicing autos, by no means would I like to discourage anybody from practicing emergency procedures. However, having trained many people in the R22 and R44, amongst them, like yourself, very experienced fixed wing pilots, I would just strongly urge you to think about it twice in an R22 especially at the early stage in helicopters you are in.
As I said, it is a great training helicopter, never the less very unforgiving.
Training autos with an instructor in the R22 can be much more rewarding then solo. If you have passed your checkride I guess you will stand a fair chance living through an auto.
However, only continuous instruction to an advanced level will teach you how to successfully walk away, pick up another machine and go flying again.
And the thing about the R22 also is that establishing the glide isn't the hardest. Most hard landings occur during power recoveries, due to the fact that people overcontrol the aircraft, have difficulties coming out of turns resulting in generally low RPM, the speed is being bled off and there you go....
I hope you understand my scenario- it is absolutely not a critique on your pilot judgement, just a suggestion. Just like I wouldn't go out in a fixed wing during my first solo and practice steep spirals.
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Uncle Joe,
Please do autos with an instructor - everyone else is right - you ARE going to come a cropper if you persist. I practice autos to power recovery only on my own, and our club insists we have 100 hours under our belts before we try on our own - its just so risky. Better still, on your next annual check flight book an hour or two with the examiner to practice autos.
Statistics show that prior to 1995 it was mainly fixed wing pilots that had R22 accidents in the USA, because of the natural reaction to push cyclic forward. Are you certain you wouldn't do that in a panic?
It seems many R22 engine failure can be attributed to carb ice so better to make sure you always operate FULL carb heat below 18 inch MP (and prior to climb out too!!).
Take care, fly safely....
Please do autos with an instructor - everyone else is right - you ARE going to come a cropper if you persist. I practice autos to power recovery only on my own, and our club insists we have 100 hours under our belts before we try on our own - its just so risky. Better still, on your next annual check flight book an hour or two with the examiner to practice autos.
Statistics show that prior to 1995 it was mainly fixed wing pilots that had R22 accidents in the USA, because of the natural reaction to push cyclic forward. Are you certain you wouldn't do that in a panic?
It seems many R22 engine failure can be attributed to carb ice so better to make sure you always operate FULL carb heat below 18 inch MP (and prior to climb out too!!).
Take care, fly safely....
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A certain large British helicopter operating company that used to have a training school with R22s ensured that the autorevs at min collective pitch were set at the high end of the permissible band. Dual autos required a touch of lever to contain NR in many circumstances, but for solo student practice autos (NB EOLs prohibited for students solo)the NR would be comfortably in the green arc when settled in auto.
A good practice, commended to any other training organisation using R22s.
A good practice, commended to any other training organisation using R22s.
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After 1500 hours teaching in R22`s and various other types. It`s the first time I`ve heard that you lower the colective and reduce speed to 60/65 knots.
I always teach on entry to an auto its lever fully down and flare (not back to 60 knots) but back enough to save the rpm.
Sure your rpm might run high but you can bring it back down with the collective.
Better having too much rpm than not enough if the engine quits for real.
Once you`ve established in the auto then you can select 65 knots.
You`ll get away with reducing the speed back to 60/65 knots in a B206 but I doubt you would in a R22.
I always teach on entry to an auto its lever fully down and flare (not back to 60 knots) but back enough to save the rpm.
Sure your rpm might run high but you can bring it back down with the collective.
Better having too much rpm than not enough if the engine quits for real.
Once you`ve established in the auto then you can select 65 knots.
You`ll get away with reducing the speed back to 60/65 knots in a B206 but I doubt you would in a R22.
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uncle joe,
It doesnt matter what is under the seat if the engine fails! RPM is what makes a helicopter fly. The R22 will autorotate at any speed between zero and max range speed but you will die if you are relying only on how heavy it is. PLEASE practise with an instructor on board.
The odds of an actual engine failure in an R22 are infinitessimal compared with the odds of you cocking up a solo auto.
It doesnt matter what is under the seat if the engine fails! RPM is what makes a helicopter fly. The R22 will autorotate at any speed between zero and max range speed but you will die if you are relying only on how heavy it is. PLEASE practise with an instructor on board.
The odds of an actual engine failure in an R22 are infinitessimal compared with the odds of you cocking up a solo auto.
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There might be a problem with the pitch change links on the mainrotor swashplate. tell your mechanic that problem and let him look at it. It might be that the angle is too small.
Iīm in person a CFI and I tell you that you should not practis autoīs by your sell. Go with your CFI because itīs your life. Donīt save money on that!
Fly safty!
Hannes
Iīm in person a CFI and I tell you that you should not practis autoīs by your sell. Go with your CFI because itīs your life. Donīt save money on that!
Fly safty!
Hannes
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In the UK it is a requirement for the grant of a certificate of airworthiness that the aircraft reaches a minimum autorevs at a given low weight. If it does not achieve them it is not airworthy and as said above - needs looking at.
I agree with the comment that auto's should not be practised without an instructor. Stalling a fixed wing is quite uneventful compared to the problems you may experience experimenting with a R22.
I agree with the comment that auto's should not be practised without an instructor. Stalling a fixed wing is quite uneventful compared to the problems you may experience experimenting with a R22.
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Fastback:
I guess with what was meant here in the threads by lowering collective is collective fully down. However, as we both know, if you are flying at e.g. a 100 KTS and fully lower collective while simultaneously flaring the R22, God bless you, because the RPM will be through the roof pretty quickly.
As for your speed recommendations, maybe have a quick look at the R22 manual or speak to instructors that have really taught in the R22. The recommended glide speed is 65KIAS.
And yes, you will live through it, even if you have less speed. In fact, you can even do a no flare auto in the R22/ R44 by holding your speed consistently at approx. 40 KIAS, RPM top range and just applying full collective as you approach the ground.
Not that I want to give anybody any ideas, but it works.
Anyhow, the speed in the R22 only matters as you are getting ready for the flare, and the 65 KIAS seem to be just a good value. Any slower then 55, you may be missing the A/S for a good RPM value, any faster then 70/ 75 KIAS before the flare and it becomes quite tricky to control the RPM.
You are perfectly right to say that you can control the RPM with collective during the glide, which you almost every single time have to do, not only in the R22. But for student pilots and freshly rated pilots the idea is "KISS" keep it simple and stupid.
Establish a glide as consistent as possible and use the free time to think about what's next.
I guess with what was meant here in the threads by lowering collective is collective fully down. However, as we both know, if you are flying at e.g. a 100 KTS and fully lower collective while simultaneously flaring the R22, God bless you, because the RPM will be through the roof pretty quickly.
As for your speed recommendations, maybe have a quick look at the R22 manual or speak to instructors that have really taught in the R22. The recommended glide speed is 65KIAS.
And yes, you will live through it, even if you have less speed. In fact, you can even do a no flare auto in the R22/ R44 by holding your speed consistently at approx. 40 KIAS, RPM top range and just applying full collective as you approach the ground.
Not that I want to give anybody any ideas, but it works.
Anyhow, the speed in the R22 only matters as you are getting ready for the flare, and the 65 KIAS seem to be just a good value. Any slower then 55, you may be missing the A/S for a good RPM value, any faster then 70/ 75 KIAS before the flare and it becomes quite tricky to control the RPM.
You are perfectly right to say that you can control the RPM with collective during the glide, which you almost every single time have to do, not only in the R22. But for student pilots and freshly rated pilots the idea is "KISS" keep it simple and stupid.
Establish a glide as consistent as possible and use the free time to think about what's next.
Guest
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Thanks guys for the advice.
Isn't prune great for helping fellow aviators with experienced and friendly advice?
What have I learned?
1)more auto's with an instuctor until at least 100 hrs P1.
2)Once the collective is down the flare is more important than the 65kts.Over reving can be controlled by collective.
3)In fixed wing forced landings without power
were practiced all the time,but like someone said practising solo in the r22 may create more difficulties than benefits until more experience gained.
4)I find it difficult to feel comfortable in a helicopter after 30 years in fixed wing.Its more of an ordeal rather than a pleasure.Hovering at 1000 ft is mind blowing when I am used to 160kts in the 401.
I need loads and loads more hours to start enjoying my flying and feel comfortable with the emergencies we have been discussing.
Thanks
Isn't prune great for helping fellow aviators with experienced and friendly advice?
What have I learned?
1)more auto's with an instuctor until at least 100 hrs P1.
2)Once the collective is down the flare is more important than the 65kts.Over reving can be controlled by collective.
3)In fixed wing forced landings without power
were practiced all the time,but like someone said practising solo in the r22 may create more difficulties than benefits until more experience gained.
4)I find it difficult to feel comfortable in a helicopter after 30 years in fixed wing.Its more of an ordeal rather than a pleasure.Hovering at 1000 ft is mind blowing when I am used to 160kts in the 401.
I need loads and loads more hours to start enjoying my flying and feel comfortable with the emergencies we have been discussing.
Thanks
Guest
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Hey Uncle Joe,
I whish you the best for your flying in the R 22. Itīs great from you that you are listing to the opinions from other people and that you are learing out of that.
Most students of mine thought, after there checkride, that they are the best pilotīs in the world and that they can do everything, but belive me you are learning a lot during each fly. Watch other people flying and look at there attidude and learn from them what they are making right and what wrong.
Anyway, Iīm not your CFI, but enjoy each fly you are in the Helicopter because itīs such a great fun!
Take care
Hannes
I whish you the best for your flying in the R 22. Itīs great from you that you are listing to the opinions from other people and that you are learing out of that.
Most students of mine thought, after there checkride, that they are the best pilotīs in the world and that they can do everything, but belive me you are learning a lot during each fly. Watch other people flying and look at there attidude and learn from them what they are making right and what wrong.
Anyway, Iīm not your CFI, but enjoy each fly you are in the Helicopter because itīs such a great fun!
Take care
Hannes
Guest
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Dear uncle joe,
Fantastic! I just read your last post (no pun intended). I agree that this forum is good to learn from. It seems to me that the speed/rpm question becomes irrelevant if the instructor is sitting next to you when you cock it up. I am real happy that you now see the danger of high time plank versus low time rotary. The laws of primacy will always prevail. I Look forward to exchanging messages with you for longer than previously thought possible.
Fantastic! I just read your last post (no pun intended). I agree that this forum is good to learn from. It seems to me that the speed/rpm question becomes irrelevant if the instructor is sitting next to you when you cock it up. I am real happy that you now see the danger of high time plank versus low time rotary. The laws of primacy will always prevail. I Look forward to exchanging messages with you for longer than previously thought possible.
Guest
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It would seem that you may have a problem with the collective rigging if you really are experiencing that low an Nr. As suggested above, a more experienced pilot should check the auto-revs and if necessary adjustments made. I concurr with multip.
When trying autorotations, remember that 90% of the benefit comes from practising the entry, subsequent sight picture PFL and Nr control. The landing is unecessarily risky and come the day of a real failure, the most important bit is getting to a safe landing site; you'll almost certainly get away with the engine off landing then.
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Another day in paradise
When trying autorotations, remember that 90% of the benefit comes from practising the entry, subsequent sight picture PFL and Nr control. The landing is unecessarily risky and come the day of a real failure, the most important bit is getting to a safe landing site; you'll almost certainly get away with the engine off landing then.
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Another day in paradise