R22 Corner
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 413
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From: leicester
skippo,
So the next question has to be how quickly does carb icing melt with full carb...
Drop an ice cube on a radiator and I bet i doesn't melt in under 10s!
Does full heat literally blast the carb icing out of the carb in a few secs?
PS Whirlybird, Do you recon if it happened to you, you could pull it off without anyone knowing (fellow instructors)... Just imagine the T.L. student on the way home "Yeah...he really cut the engine...and we just floated down!!!"
MADY
So the next question has to be how quickly does carb icing melt with full carb...
Drop an ice cube on a radiator and I bet i doesn't melt in under 10s!
Does full heat literally blast the carb icing out of the carb in a few secs?
PS Whirlybird, Do you recon if it happened to you, you could pull it off without anyone knowing (fellow instructors)... Just imagine the T.L. student on the way home "Yeah...he really cut the engine...and we just floated down!!!"
MADY
Senis Semper Fidelis
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 1,288
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From: Lancashire U K
My Lady cfi drummed it into me that Carb heat FULL ON before any other item or action if going to practice any Auto's on the R22,
However that will not give you a cast iron guarantee that your carb will NOT ice up, under certain Wx conditions it will.
The secret is to pull full heat and watch the temps climb, then at least you know heat is there, but God, or Allah will still be watching ready to catch you
shalt thou fail!
Vfr
However that will not give you a cast iron guarantee that your carb will NOT ice up, under certain Wx conditions it will.
The secret is to pull full heat and watch the temps climb, then at least you know heat is there, but God, or Allah will still be watching ready to catch you
shalt thou fail!
Vfr
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 185
Likes: 4
From: Downwind of a smelly passenger
yeah the trick is to not pull carb on and then enter , make sure ya put it on on your downwind landing checks . When giving Throttle chops on student fly with the heat on for a bit before ya do it, The student will expect a Chop when he see's ya go for Heat , so put it on and them you will get the full effect .
Another trick is to crack the thottle out of idle to about 60-70% when passing 300' on Auto's the reason for this is that it gives you more reaction time in case yer power is gone due to ice and you have more vital seconds to perform yer best full down Touch .
Another trick is to crack the thottle out of idle to about 60-70% when passing 300' on Auto's the reason for this is that it gives you more reaction time in case yer power is gone due to ice and you have more vital seconds to perform yer best full down Touch .
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 19
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From: usa
10 secound melt time?
Mady
I bet it takes more than 20 seconds to melt carb ice to! I said some time in advance, most do it on downwind checks. Also if you are to throttle chop a student, leave it on for a longer time. This will make the chop safer and give the student mor element of suprise
. When it comes to how quikly ice already acumulated melts i have no idea. BUT if you use the carb temp gauge this can give you an idea of if some ice already acumulated.
In other words if youre been close to or in the yellow band, i would wait longer before doing any autos after applying carb heat
Think ahead, dont put a student and yourself in a world of !!!!...
Proper carb heat procedures do work...
I bet it takes more than 20 seconds to melt carb ice to! I said some time in advance, most do it on downwind checks. Also if you are to throttle chop a student, leave it on for a longer time. This will make the chop safer and give the student mor element of suprise
. When it comes to how quikly ice already acumulated melts i have no idea. BUT if you use the carb temp gauge this can give you an idea of if some ice already acumulated. In other words if youre been close to or in the yellow band, i would wait longer before doing any autos after applying carb heat
Think ahead, dont put a student and yourself in a world of !!!!... Proper carb heat procedures do work...
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 1,957
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From: Australia
MD902man
well said, NO THROTTLE CHOPS IN R22,
heard a story about that once,
it goes like this:-
exerienced instructor does one with ab initio at about 1,000 agl,
entry hgt very lucky,
student:- they think didn't push down on the old life-saver but they think he threw in a boot full of left pedal. Instructor scared so much does not remember
Result flick roll inverted,
instructor completes hlf roll and hlf loop or something and lands asap,
note entry hgt,
instructor is last seen heading to change room at a higher speed than loop pull out speed.
machine passed fit to fly after thorougth look over, and clean off oil from ALL over underside of whole A/C
ab-boy still none the wiser.
maybe someone should start a thread, F--- NSTB
heard a story about that once,
it goes like this:-
exerienced instructor does one with ab initio at about 1,000 agl,
entry hgt very lucky,
student:- they think didn't push down on the old life-saver but they think he threw in a boot full of left pedal. Instructor scared so much does not remember
Result flick roll inverted,
instructor completes hlf roll and hlf loop or something and lands asap,
note entry hgt,
instructor is last seen heading to change room at a higher speed than loop pull out speed.
machine passed fit to fly after thorougth look over, and clean off oil from ALL over underside of whole A/C
ab-boy still none the wiser.
maybe someone should start a thread, F--- NSTB
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 123
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From: Playing in the sand
What if the R22 is the only machine you have ever flown and a student gets an actually engine failure on a solo flight? If every practice auto they have ever done was a 3-2-1 countdown, then they won't have the reaction time needed to get the collective down before the rotor stalls!
The instructor that used to chop me in the R22 had a rule of thumb for students until he knew how well they would react to it; always chop below 20in on newbies since there is less drag and more time to react compared to pulling full power.
The instructor that used to chop me in the R22 had a rule of thumb for students until he knew how well they would react to it; always chop below 20in on newbies since there is less drag and more time to react compared to pulling full power.
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 353
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From: Out there somewhere
While I was on the Robinson safety course last year, one point that was highly stressed to instructors was to "never chop the throttle" as a new student may react totally wrong, i.e. freezing on the controls. 
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 78
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From: UK
R22 QUESTION
Apologies fellow aviators for a dumb question that I should be able to remember (and I am expecting to get some grief, so give it your best shot).
How many degrees of slope is the R22 limited to for sloping ground detail?
Is it 15 degrees of slope in either direction? Haven't got my books with me so I can't look it up.
Ta & safe flying.
RV
How many degrees of slope is the R22 limited to for sloping ground detail?
Is it 15 degrees of slope in either direction? Haven't got my books with me so I can't look it up.
Ta & safe flying.
RV
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 148
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From: europe
The thought of a 15 degree slope in an R22 will haunt my dreams forever!IIRC (I'm sure some kind soul will correct me if necessary) you have 9 degrees of cyclic authority to the right, and 11 degrees to the left
From that, interpret your own safe limits! - there is nothing in the manual
Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 700
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From: 5 nM S of TNT, UK
I hate the feeling when you are slope landing nose up and waiting for the back of the skids to touch ground. As you can't see the surface behind you, it is just a question of hoping the skids hit before the tail, or that's how it feels anyway.
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 7
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From: xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Wind speed limits for starting an R44/R22?
Hi Folks
I'm looking for some information or advice regarding the limitations for start-up and shutdown of an R44/R22 with reference to blade sailing. There is currently no limitations within the POH.
Cheers
I'm looking for some information or advice regarding the limitations for start-up and shutdown of an R44/R22 with reference to blade sailing. There is currently no limitations within the POH.
Cheers
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 281
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From: UK
Wind limits
R22/R44 start up/ shut down limits,
I have seen it in the POH, either in the safety notices or as a CAA supplement, limit is 26Kts i think. The best wind position to avoid a tailboom strike is to have the wind at 10 - 11 o'clock which means you have the blade rising on the left side of the A/C and at a high point as it goes over the tailboom and falling on the right side and at a low point as it passes the nose.
Regards BC
I have seen it in the POH, either in the safety notices or as a CAA supplement, limit is 26Kts i think. The best wind position to avoid a tailboom strike is to have the wind at 10 - 11 o'clock which means you have the blade rising on the left side of the A/C and at a high point as it goes over the tailboom and falling on the right side and at a low point as it passes the nose.
Regards BC
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 185
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I have seen it in the POH, either in the safety notices or as a CAA supplement, limit is 26Kts i think.
This was a result of AD95-26-04, which is now included (in part) in the POH.
The relevant text is copied below.
LIMITATIONS SECTION
The following limitations (1-3) are to be observed unless the pilot manipulating the controls has logged 200 or more flight hours in helicopters, at least 50 of which must be in the RHC Model R22 helicopter, and has completed the awareness training specified in Special Federal Aviation Regulation (SFAR) No. 73, issued February 27, 1995.
(1) Flight when surface winds exceed 25 knots, including gusts, is prohibited.
(2) Flight when surface wind gust spreads exceed 15 knots is prohibited.
(3) Continued flight in moderate, severe, or extreme turbulence is prohibited.
Adjust forward airspeed to between 60 knots indicated airspeed (KIAS) and 0.7 Vne, but no lower than 57 KIAS, upon inadvertently encountering moderate, severe, or extreme turbulence.
Note: Moderate turbulence is turbulence that causes: (1) changes in altitude or attitude; (2) variations in indicated airspeed; and (3) aircraft occupants to feel definite strains against seat belts.
I don't believe there is a limitation for starting, but the advice that has been posted previously about the best azimuth is good (notwithstanding the obvious error, as pointed out by Flingwing below, which I admit I missed at first!)
cl12pv2s
Last edited by cl12pv2s; 30th March 2006 at 16:19.