R22 Corner
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 1,852
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From: Canada
mongoose,
You are probably right. I think I heard that FR originally wanted to sell the R22 for $26,000 but that price was far too low given the high cost of liability insurance.
By the way I have a copy of the 1967 Flying Annual. Here are a few prices:
Bell 206A - $89,000
Hughes 500C - $78,000
Hiller FH 1100 - $85,000
and a Sikorsky 61N for just $867,980!
You are probably right. I think I heard that FR originally wanted to sell the R22 for $26,000 but that price was far too low given the high cost of liability insurance.
By the way I have a copy of the 1967 Flying Annual. Here are a few prices:
Bell 206A - $89,000
Hughes 500C - $78,000
Hiller FH 1100 - $85,000
and a Sikorsky 61N for just $867,980!
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 77
Likes: 1
From: US
R22 Overspeed
Hi y'all. I had a sticky throttle in my R22 (Beta) a few days ago, and on lift off I think the governor failed to govern, as it were. Upon lift off, RPM, both engine and rotor, was above the red. Not sure exactly where, but am guessing maybe 115%. I was lightish - 2 POB but very light fuel load, and the overspeed excursion was for, maybe, 3 to 5 seconds.
What's the real world consequence of this kind of overspeed in a 22? It has the new Dash Four blades. Is it likely to drop a blade, self destruct the tail rotor drive shaft, or simply blow up on me? How common are overspeeds, in the real world?
What's the real world consequence of this kind of overspeed in a 22? It has the new Dash Four blades. Is it likely to drop a blade, self destruct the tail rotor drive shaft, or simply blow up on me? How common are overspeeds, in the real world?
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 56
Likes: 0
From: Sweden
no good
I've had a similar experience myself. All I can say is that you must report it to the owner and the technician responsible for the helicopter. After that you'll see if "safety" is just empty words or if the owner takes it seriously.
All I know is that if the engine and/or rotor were above red I wouldn't get near the machine untill it has been fully checked out. Unfortunately I think it will cost a lot, but you often pay for some kind of insurance when you rent or train on a helo.
This is found on the RHC webpage : "If the helicopter has been occasionally operated above manifold pressure limits, replace main rotor blades." Now you're talking about overspeeds, not taking to much power, but there is a connection.
There are quite a few ppl here that know much more about this than I do, they'll surely tell you what is the right action to take. But my advice is; Dont fly the machine yourself until this matter has been sorted out. Make sure the technician has ALL the details and understands exactly what happened.
best regards
RotorSwede
All I know is that if the engine and/or rotor were above red I wouldn't get near the machine untill it has been fully checked out. Unfortunately I think it will cost a lot, but you often pay for some kind of insurance when you rent or train on a helo.
This is found on the RHC webpage : "If the helicopter has been occasionally operated above manifold pressure limits, replace main rotor blades." Now you're talking about overspeeds, not taking to much power, but there is a connection.
There are quite a few ppl here that know much more about this than I do, they'll surely tell you what is the right action to take. But my advice is; Dont fly the machine yourself until this matter has been sorted out. Make sure the technician has ALL the details and understands exactly what happened.
best regards
RotorSwede
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 77
Likes: 1
From: US
Overspeed cont'd
Well, the owner takes safety pretty seriously - I AM the owner! I know what the book says, and I know the official RHC position, but I'm wondering how often does it really happen, and what are the 'real world' consequences? The new blades have about 5 hours on them. I'll replace 'em if I have to (ever seen the RHC safety video? it's very motivating when it comes to safety 
but just want to see if other people have had similar experiences...
but just want to see if other people have had similar experiences...
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 78
Likes: 0
From: australia
Lostpianoplayer, as you prob know the maintainance manual if very clear about this, i witnessed similar where a very clear massive over speed took place only to have an engineer carry out a std inspection, i read the maint: manual and then refused to fly it, to this day .
Nothing ever came to grief but what price do you put on the unsuspecting passengers life if not your own.
Remember also its usually not the blade thats in question but the hub and bearings,there are no tention/torshion straps in an R22, how many engineers drain the oil to get a clear feel of an over speed as described in the manual, they know better than Robinson! or at least know its cheaper to turn a blind eye.
PS: they may give it a clean bill of health, then you will feel really good about taking no chances.
My advice... dont take advice... speak to Robinson.
Nothing ever came to grief but what price do you put on the unsuspecting passengers life if not your own.
Remember also its usually not the blade thats in question but the hub and bearings,there are no tention/torshion straps in an R22, how many engineers drain the oil to get a clear feel of an over speed as described in the manual, they know better than Robinson! or at least know its cheaper to turn a blind eye.
PS: they may give it a clean bill of health, then you will feel really good about taking no chances.
My advice... dont take advice... speak to Robinson.
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 106
Likes: 0
From: here and there
Get your aircraft looked at. Dont mess around with your or your passengers lives.
Overspeeds to the engine on Robbies can be indicated, amongst other things by the cooling fan 'slipping'. Take a look at it, there should be a torque stripe line that runs over the nut (where it is roll pinned and wire-locked after installation) and extends either side onto the fan itself. If this is not straight then the fan has 'slipped' and you most probabily have had an overspeed.
Overspeeds to the blades are much harder to see, impossible even, without them being removed. What will happen is that when you rotate the spindles the bearings will feel rough or 'notchy'. If this is the case then you will need these spindle bearings replaced.
I doubt that you would loose a blade and the engine certainly wouldnt 'blow up' on you because of an overspeed (it will start producing metal in the filters though). As I said at the start, get it looked at and assessed by your engineers asap.
How common are overspeeds in Robbies?
Not all that common, but they do happen and can be expensive, whats worth more, money or your life.
Overspeeds to the engine on Robbies can be indicated, amongst other things by the cooling fan 'slipping'. Take a look at it, there should be a torque stripe line that runs over the nut (where it is roll pinned and wire-locked after installation) and extends either side onto the fan itself. If this is not straight then the fan has 'slipped' and you most probabily have had an overspeed.
Overspeeds to the blades are much harder to see, impossible even, without them being removed. What will happen is that when you rotate the spindles the bearings will feel rough or 'notchy'. If this is the case then you will need these spindle bearings replaced.
I doubt that you would loose a blade and the engine certainly wouldnt 'blow up' on you because of an overspeed (it will start producing metal in the filters though). As I said at the start, get it looked at and assessed by your engineers asap.
How common are overspeeds in Robbies?
Not all that common, but they do happen and can be expensive, whats worth more, money or your life.
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 124
Likes: 0
From: Finland
Hi,
Overspeeding an R22 is very easy during lift up, especially if you are doing training and pilots/student pilots with little experience is flying.
What happens is, when you are lifting up the helicopter to a hover you are to tensioned and grabbing the throttle/collective to hard and preventing the governor to control the RPM. When the lift is increasing and you are getting coning on your blades the RPM tends to increase.....
Overspeeds are happening now and then especially if the helicopters are used for flight training and also the R22 is very sensitive to speed up the rotor RPM very quickly as you have a low inertia rotor system.
If you have an overspeed tell the owner/operator about it and try to estimate how high the RPM went and for how many seconds. Don´t play around without telling if you have an overspeed.
The engineers will have a good check of the aircraft and check up that everything is ok. I think they usually check the blades for delamination as well as the root of the blades. Also on the R22 you can see a missalignement of the locking nut to the fan if the engine have oversped as well as cracks on the weldings on the fan. Anyway, I'm not an engineer so an engineer can tell you precisally what they check for.
Overspeeding an R22 is very easy during lift up, especially if you are doing training and pilots/student pilots with little experience is flying.
What happens is, when you are lifting up the helicopter to a hover you are to tensioned and grabbing the throttle/collective to hard and preventing the governor to control the RPM. When the lift is increasing and you are getting coning on your blades the RPM tends to increase.....
Overspeeds are happening now and then especially if the helicopters are used for flight training and also the R22 is very sensitive to speed up the rotor RPM very quickly as you have a low inertia rotor system.
If you have an overspeed tell the owner/operator about it and try to estimate how high the RPM went and for how many seconds. Don´t play around without telling if you have an overspeed.
The engineers will have a good check of the aircraft and check up that everything is ok. I think they usually check the blades for delamination as well as the root of the blades. Also on the R22 you can see a missalignement of the locking nut to the fan if the engine have oversped as well as cracks on the weldings on the fan. Anyway, I'm not an engineer so an engineer can tell you precisally what they check for.
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 77
Likes: 1
From: US
OK - reckon the course of action is clear!
Thanks for your thoughts! Message received loud and clear - it's grounded anyway, pending a decision on how far to go with disassembly/inspection but I just wanted to be sure I wasn't being paranoid. Bttter safe than sorry? Couldn't agree more...
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 281
Likes: 0
From: UK
R22 Overspeed
Hi All,
Lostpianoplayer,
Glad to her you are taking my fellow PPruners advice, and treating this incident seriously. I felt I should relay my advice on what can happen if overspeeds are not fully investigated.
I used to work as an instructor a school using R22s as a basic training heli. One day a close friend of mine, a new CPL but very sensible and competant for his experience, took a friend out in one of the school R22s on a private flight. Shortly after departure, in the cruise at approx. 1000ft he had a sudden engine failure. Luckily, he had been practising emergencies regularly during his CPL course and safely auto'd the heli into a field, both onboard uninjured and aircraft undamaged!!, quite a feat for a 200hr pilot. Subsequent investigation led the engineers to believe that the engine had been badly oversped, in the weeks previously, and not reported. The R22 can cope with slight RRPM overspeeds occasionaly before the bearings start to suffer, but it doesn't cope well with ERPM overspeeds. I believe the aircraft in question had been oversped by a PPL away from base (probably forgot to ensure the governor was on and working before lift) and was too embarrassed/unaware of the consequences, to report it. Luckily on this occasion, good training and a little bit of luck prevented a disaster.
Hope this story helps to assure you that although a full inspection etc. might be expensive, it could be a lot worse.
BC.
Lostpianoplayer,
Glad to her you are taking my fellow PPruners advice, and treating this incident seriously. I felt I should relay my advice on what can happen if overspeeds are not fully investigated.
I used to work as an instructor a school using R22s as a basic training heli. One day a close friend of mine, a new CPL but very sensible and competant for his experience, took a friend out in one of the school R22s on a private flight. Shortly after departure, in the cruise at approx. 1000ft he had a sudden engine failure. Luckily, he had been practising emergencies regularly during his CPL course and safely auto'd the heli into a field, both onboard uninjured and aircraft undamaged!!, quite a feat for a 200hr pilot. Subsequent investigation led the engineers to believe that the engine had been badly oversped, in the weeks previously, and not reported. The R22 can cope with slight RRPM overspeeds occasionaly before the bearings start to suffer, but it doesn't cope well with ERPM overspeeds. I believe the aircraft in question had been oversped by a PPL away from base (probably forgot to ensure the governor was on and working before lift) and was too embarrassed/unaware of the consequences, to report it. Luckily on this occasion, good training and a little bit of luck prevented a disaster.
Hope this story helps to assure you that although a full inspection etc. might be expensive, it could be a lot worse.
BC.
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 92
Likes: 0
From: New Zealand
I would be more concerned about the engine overspeed, Cracked cylinder heads are the most common result. I would not even question the whole deal - The manual states that up to 116% there are certain inspections to carry out ,and at or above then things become more expensive ie throw away.....
The new 5 bearing set up in the spindles reduces wear from overspeeds but the same inspections still apply.
I have heard of pilots who accidently leave/knock the governor off and pull in power on take off where the correlator does its thing and sends the rpm through the red - Is this what happened in your case?
Look after the whirly bit and it will look after you - I personally believe in Helicopter Karma
The new 5 bearing set up in the spindles reduces wear from overspeeds but the same inspections still apply.
I have heard of pilots who accidently leave/knock the governor off and pull in power on take off where the correlator does its thing and sends the rpm through the red - Is this what happened in your case?
Look after the whirly bit and it will look after you - I personally believe in Helicopter Karma
Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 700
Likes: 0
From: 5 nM S of TNT, UK
I know that the fan nut position is an indicator of past overspeed, but presumably this is just for the case where the throttle is open on engine start and the unloaded engine RPM runs away, leaving the fan behind to catch up? I don't see how the nut can slip during an in flight overspeed.
Joined: Sep 2002
Aviation Qualifications: CPL
Posts: 4,721
Likes: 636
From: Great South East, tired and retired
There should also be a "run-out check" on the T/R drive shaft - engineer opens some inspection holes on the boom and uses a vernier caliper to measure the distance to the drive shaft. The rotors are then turned with this caliper in contact with the shaft, and the variations in position measured. It determines if the driveshaft has been whipped around and the bearing damaged.
Expect $ome expen$ive bill$
Expect $ome expen$ive bill$
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 77
Likes: 1
From: US
Reason for overspeed
OK - so the consensus here is pretty much what I thought - just get it sorted out, no matter what. Yes, I do expect some expensive bills - but I have never laboured under the misapprehension that aviation is cheap. It's cool, it's magic, it's the only reason for living....but it's not cheap
The only thing that I might be able to add to this discussion is that I am pretty sure the governor was ON - I was a bit overwhelmed in the confusion immediately after lift off, when I felt the overspeed before I noticed it, and toggled the gov switch a few times, so I'm not 100% sure, but I am 95% sure! I had noticed that the throttle was very sticky as part of my pre flight tho - spent 10 mins or so wiggling the thottle - and I'm not sure how the gov works, but I strongly suspect that the sticky throttle was actually the problem. That said, I may have left the governor off - student or not, we all make mistakes, me maybe more than most - but just thought I'd mention the "sticky throttle" issue. If the governor couldn't overpower the stickiness, and I had a correlator-driven overspeed, well, I guess that means a sticky throttle is more serious than I thought, given that I'm now going to be getting the damn thing torn down. (Or, hubs inspected, tail shaft wash out inspected, SOME engine looking at (please God not a bulk strip, but I'll just do what the grown-ups say...)
It's a low time engine and brand new dash four blades. Yeuuuch. But collisions with Mother Earth are worse than telephone number bills eh
The only thing that I might be able to add to this discussion is that I am pretty sure the governor was ON - I was a bit overwhelmed in the confusion immediately after lift off, when I felt the overspeed before I noticed it, and toggled the gov switch a few times, so I'm not 100% sure, but I am 95% sure! I had noticed that the throttle was very sticky as part of my pre flight tho - spent 10 mins or so wiggling the thottle - and I'm not sure how the gov works, but I strongly suspect that the sticky throttle was actually the problem. That said, I may have left the governor off - student or not, we all make mistakes, me maybe more than most - but just thought I'd mention the "sticky throttle" issue. If the governor couldn't overpower the stickiness, and I had a correlator-driven overspeed, well, I guess that means a sticky throttle is more serious than I thought, given that I'm now going to be getting the damn thing torn down. (Or, hubs inspected, tail shaft wash out inspected, SOME engine looking at (please God not a bulk strip, but I'll just do what the grown-ups say...)
It's a low time engine and brand new dash four blades. Yeuuuch. But collisions with Mother Earth are worse than telephone number bills eh
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 124
Likes: 0
From: Finland
Lostpianoplayer,
I have never heard of an R22 throttle that should have been sticky so the governor couldn't been able to overrun it. But, when being an instructor it have happened many times that pilots are grabbing the throttle to hard and preventing the governor from working. This have happened to me also
even after been flying the R22 for many years, specially if you pick up the helicopter into a hover close to a hangar, slope ground or just a thight spot....ie. you are to tension and grabbing throttle to hard. Also when I have been showing (or try to show) the smoooooothes landings in the world I just grab that trhottle to hard and get low RPM warning on
If you suspect that the throttle is too sticky have your engineer to have a look on that as well and do a couple of ground runs/test flights to sort it out.
Cheers
I have never heard of an R22 throttle that should have been sticky so the governor couldn't been able to overrun it. But, when being an instructor it have happened many times that pilots are grabbing the throttle to hard and preventing the governor from working. This have happened to me also
even after been flying the R22 for many years, specially if you pick up the helicopter into a hover close to a hangar, slope ground or just a thight spot....ie. you are to tension and grabbing throttle to hard. Also when I have been showing (or try to show) the smoooooothes landings in the world I just grab that trhottle to hard and get low RPM warning on If you suspect that the throttle is too sticky have your engineer to have a look on that as well and do a couple of ground runs/test flights to sort it out.
Cheers
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 518
Likes: 0
From: England
lost, you have all my sympathy, I doubt I could ever afford to buy a r22
and reading your honest tale, makes me realise, even if I could just scrape up the money, I could'nt afford to run it, I have my fingers crossed for you
tv
and reading your honest tale, makes me realise, even if I could just scrape up the money, I could'nt afford to run it, I have my fingers crossed for you
tv
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 413
Likes: 0
From: leicester
Carb Icing on R22s Autos
How quickly can carb icing form - Reason for asking is that during a PFL training, we close the throttle (narrow gap on but. valve, low pressure...) could this be enough to allow a build up of carb icing???
Hold on, Obviously we do HASEL checks and apply full carb... but if we didn't is it possible in the 30s or so decent?
PS - Referring to R22s here
MADY
Hold on, Obviously we do HASEL checks and apply full carb... but if we didn't is it possible in the 30s or so decent?
PS - Referring to R22s here
MADY
The Original Whirly
Joined: Feb 1999
Aviation Qualifications: CPL
Posts: 4,327
Likes: 2
From: Belper, Derbyshire, UK
A high hours instructor told me of the time he demonstrated an auto for a trial lesson student...and forgot to pull carb heat first. He said that the moment he lowered the collective the engine failed. He landed safely, started up again, and the student was none the wiser. But all I can say is....I'm glad I didn't have to do it!
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 19
Likes: 0
From: usa
carb iceing and autos
Hi
The engine failure in autos is often caused by ice acumulated before entering. When the engine is on idle there are only small gaps around the butterfly valve, any ice will choke the engine during youre throttle chop!
My advise is apply carb heat some time in advance before doing autos. You can experience carb ice engine failure with full carb heat
.
I know some instructors who have learned about this in a scary way.
The engine failure in autos is often caused by ice acumulated before entering. When the engine is on idle there are only small gaps around the butterfly valve, any ice will choke the engine during youre throttle chop!
My advise is apply carb heat some time in advance before doing autos. You can experience carb ice engine failure with full carb heat
.I know some instructors who have learned about this in a scary way.