US Presidential Helicopter Bid (and Result)
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This thread is going on longer than the presidential election (probably the most booring thing on this planet) and the process to select the presidential helicopter (most likely the third most booring thing on this planet). Whatever the pros and cons are of the available helicopters in terms of ability and suitability for sure knowing how narrow minded the americans are when it comes to accepting that anything that is not american could be superior will ensure that the name plate on that helicopter reads Sikorsky (Russian).
Oh by the way the second most booring thing on this planet is the BBC news as it's mostly about america.
Tony Blair will be not be upset if Agusta Westlands don't get into the business as he will be soothed by George by other promises.
I believe that Sikorsky will be the eventual winner as the bad publicity surrounding the EH101 will sway the decision in Sikorsky's favour. And it's probably the better machine at the end of the day all things being equal.
Oh by the way the second most booring thing on this planet is the BBC news as it's mostly about america.
Tony Blair will be not be upset if Agusta Westlands don't get into the business as he will be soothed by George by other promises.
I believe that Sikorsky will be the eventual winner as the bad publicity surrounding the EH101 will sway the decision in Sikorsky's favour. And it's probably the better machine at the end of the day all things being equal.
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how narrow minded the americans are when it comes to accepting that anything that is not american could be superior
I wonder why the Department of Homeland Security purchased a rather large fleet of Eurocopter ships for Customs and Immigration (border patrol)? No, I don't think you can claim that we have an overtion to foreign products at all. If fact, it may even surprise you that we are actually capable of making an informed decision, based on merit and other factors, including economic benefit for our GNP.
But shucks, ya'll, I'm just an ignorant red-neck that can't possibly understand how to make the right decision.
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There's winning and there's winning...
AgustaWestland can't really lose in this competion now they've got this far. Just being in the race probably helps them in the buy US vs European debate in future competions. George may not end up flying in an AW product but if one is almost good enough for the President surely other AW products might be good enough for the Army!
Some of the cash left over from the Comanche cancellation might end up in European hands yet.
It's a different situation for Lockheed though. I think they have less to win and more to lose by pushing the EH101 in the US.
Some of the cash left over from the Comanche cancellation might end up in European hands yet.
It's a different situation for Lockheed though. I think they have less to win and more to lose by pushing the EH101 in the US.
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Yes other examples of the US buy America theme are :- US Coast guard HH-65 ( now being re engined with TM Engines ) , A109 Hitiron and in future the AB139 , USBP Eurocopter AS350 B3 and now EC120 . DEA Bo 105LS, Shorts Sherpa (some years ago now ) for the US Army. In the same period how many US helicopters have been purchased by European Government agencies ?
Headturner......
"....knowing how narrow minded the americans are when it comes to accepting that anything that is not american could be superior will ensure that the name plate on that helicopter reads Sikorsky (Russian)."
Whew Bubba! I don't think I would have said that! Were you around when the Brits were discussing accepting GPS technology? It sure has not been embraced by the UK CAA yet or has lightning struck yet?
I can recall the attitude being summed up by a statement "....GPS...that's a Yank DOD thing isn't it?" To be followed by a comment that since the Nigerian CAA had required all aircraft to be equipped with GPS, then the company would install it but upon becoming U/S the first time....they would not repair it!
The Yanks have no monopoly on such things, nope, no sir!
"....knowing how narrow minded the americans are when it comes to accepting that anything that is not american could be superior will ensure that the name plate on that helicopter reads Sikorsky (Russian)."
Whew Bubba! I don't think I would have said that! Were you around when the Brits were discussing accepting GPS technology? It sure has not been embraced by the UK CAA yet or has lightning struck yet?
I can recall the attitude being summed up by a statement "....GPS...that's a Yank DOD thing isn't it?" To be followed by a comment that since the Nigerian CAA had required all aircraft to be equipped with GPS, then the company would install it but upon becoming U/S the first time....they would not repair it!
The Yanks have no monopoly on such things, nope, no sir!
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THE WASHINGTON TIMES
November 29, 2004
Bragging rights included
Two U.S. defense contractors are appealing to the hearts of politicians and the minds of the Navy as they vie to build a new fleet of helicopters for the White House.
Lockheed Martin and Sikorsky Aircraft are both fighting to win a U.S. Navy project to make the next generation of Marine One aircraft, the designation given helicopters used to transport presidents since Dwight D. Eisenhower.
The initial project would be worth about $2.7 billion to produce 23 aircraft through 2009, said John Milliman, public-affairs officer for the presidential helicopter program at the Naval Air Systems Command in Patuxent River, Md.
But the even bigger payoff would be bragging rights -- manufacturing an iconic aircraft for the leader of the free world -- and a chance to win even more lucrative contracts worth billions more with U.S. and foreign militaries.
"The value of the program is not just this program. The air vehicle ... will be the opening shot for a U.S. Air Force competition for around 130 aircraft," said Nick Lappos, Sikorsky's program director for the VH-92, the company name for its version of the presidential helicopter. "The winner gets a leg up on the competition."
Both companies say their product would be the best replacement for the current, aging fleet of Marine One helicopters as a mobile executive office. Neither is certain who will win the competition. The Navy is expected to make a final decision in late January, although the awarding of the contract has been delayed twice.
In the meantime, each company is extolling not just the virtues of its helicopter, but how patriotic its product is.
Sikorsky, based in Stratford, Conn., and owned by United Technologies, stocks the current Marine One fleet with its Sea King aircraft and hopes to continue that tradition with the VH-92.
Sikorsky bills itself as the All-American choice and has been quick to note that Lockheed's proposal for Marine One is made in partnership with AgustaWestland, a European firm with its main operations in Cascina Costa, Italy, and Yeovil, England.
"The Lockheed people will have Italian workers making the rotor blades, should Lockheed win," Mr. Lappos said.
Lockheed, headquartered in Bethesda, says the argument about American content is misleading.
"We don't believe the helicopter should not be selected because of participation of our allies," said Stephen D. Ramsey, Lockheed vice president and general manager for the US101, the company name for its Marine One proposal.
In fact, it's hard to find better allies than Britain and Italy, two countries that supported the United States with boots on the ground in Iraq, Mr. Ramsey said from the company's Owego, N.Y., offices.
"I think the xenophobic approach is counterproductive to the process and doesn't serve anyone well," said Stephen Moss, president of AgustaWestland's U.S. subsidiary. The company is consolidating its U.S. offices in Reston.
In the complex world of defense contracting, it is unlikely that either helicopter would be 100 percent American.
"It is hard to find in the defense industry a purely American defense product. I suspect if you dig deep enough into any system, you will find some sort of foreign component," said Pierre Chao, a senior fellow at the Center for Strategic and International Studies, a D.C. think tank.
The companies rely on hundreds of subcontractors for major components such as engines and minor pieces such as fasteners.
Lockheed, in fact, doesn't specialize in manufacturing helicopters. That's why it has partnered with Sikorsky on past projects and why Agusta-Westland and Texas-based Bell Helicopter are part of its Marine One team.
Lockheed instead focuses on systems integration, bringing the pieces together and installing high-tech equipment to make it all work, a capability valued by the Navy.
"What we are looking for is a [helicopter] platform that is in production that we don't have to do much development on the airframe, so we can devote energy and resources to systems that go aboard," Mr. Milliman said.
Sikorsky says it's not just about American content, but about controlling production on behalf of the president's safety.
The company also wants the research funding for new systems to flow to Connecticut.
"The question is not buy American; it is whether you invest American," Mr. Lappos said.
Many have weighed in, from British Prime Minister Tony Blair on behalf of AgustaWestland to the entire Connecticut congressional contingent on behalf of Sikorsky.
"So the US101 might offer opportunities for mutually beneficial cooperation," Mr. Blair wrote to the president in January 2003.
The Connecticut group added their opinion this month.
"We ... wish to express our concern about potential vulnerabilities to the presidential helicopter fleet should Marine One be produced with international components," two senators and five representatives said in a letter to President Bush, Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld and Navy Secretary Gordon R. England.
All the attention and rhetoric might affect the final decision, though not the way either company intended.
"It does encourage, if not force, the Navy to be as apolitical and as technically based in their decision as possible," Mr. Chao said.
"I suspect the delays are about crossing the t's and dotting the i's so that anyone can follow their reasoning and reach the same conclusion," he said.
November 29, 2004
Bragging rights included
Two U.S. defense contractors are appealing to the hearts of politicians and the minds of the Navy as they vie to build a new fleet of helicopters for the White House.
Lockheed Martin and Sikorsky Aircraft are both fighting to win a U.S. Navy project to make the next generation of Marine One aircraft, the designation given helicopters used to transport presidents since Dwight D. Eisenhower.
The initial project would be worth about $2.7 billion to produce 23 aircraft through 2009, said John Milliman, public-affairs officer for the presidential helicopter program at the Naval Air Systems Command in Patuxent River, Md.
But the even bigger payoff would be bragging rights -- manufacturing an iconic aircraft for the leader of the free world -- and a chance to win even more lucrative contracts worth billions more with U.S. and foreign militaries.
"The value of the program is not just this program. The air vehicle ... will be the opening shot for a U.S. Air Force competition for around 130 aircraft," said Nick Lappos, Sikorsky's program director for the VH-92, the company name for its version of the presidential helicopter. "The winner gets a leg up on the competition."
Both companies say their product would be the best replacement for the current, aging fleet of Marine One helicopters as a mobile executive office. Neither is certain who will win the competition. The Navy is expected to make a final decision in late January, although the awarding of the contract has been delayed twice.
In the meantime, each company is extolling not just the virtues of its helicopter, but how patriotic its product is.
Sikorsky, based in Stratford, Conn., and owned by United Technologies, stocks the current Marine One fleet with its Sea King aircraft and hopes to continue that tradition with the VH-92.
Sikorsky bills itself as the All-American choice and has been quick to note that Lockheed's proposal for Marine One is made in partnership with AgustaWestland, a European firm with its main operations in Cascina Costa, Italy, and Yeovil, England.
"The Lockheed people will have Italian workers making the rotor blades, should Lockheed win," Mr. Lappos said.
Lockheed, headquartered in Bethesda, says the argument about American content is misleading.
"We don't believe the helicopter should not be selected because of participation of our allies," said Stephen D. Ramsey, Lockheed vice president and general manager for the US101, the company name for its Marine One proposal.
In fact, it's hard to find better allies than Britain and Italy, two countries that supported the United States with boots on the ground in Iraq, Mr. Ramsey said from the company's Owego, N.Y., offices.
"I think the xenophobic approach is counterproductive to the process and doesn't serve anyone well," said Stephen Moss, president of AgustaWestland's U.S. subsidiary. The company is consolidating its U.S. offices in Reston.
In the complex world of defense contracting, it is unlikely that either helicopter would be 100 percent American.
"It is hard to find in the defense industry a purely American defense product. I suspect if you dig deep enough into any system, you will find some sort of foreign component," said Pierre Chao, a senior fellow at the Center for Strategic and International Studies, a D.C. think tank.
The companies rely on hundreds of subcontractors for major components such as engines and minor pieces such as fasteners.
Lockheed, in fact, doesn't specialize in manufacturing helicopters. That's why it has partnered with Sikorsky on past projects and why Agusta-Westland and Texas-based Bell Helicopter are part of its Marine One team.
Lockheed instead focuses on systems integration, bringing the pieces together and installing high-tech equipment to make it all work, a capability valued by the Navy.
"What we are looking for is a [helicopter] platform that is in production that we don't have to do much development on the airframe, so we can devote energy and resources to systems that go aboard," Mr. Milliman said.
Sikorsky says it's not just about American content, but about controlling production on behalf of the president's safety.
The company also wants the research funding for new systems to flow to Connecticut.
"The question is not buy American; it is whether you invest American," Mr. Lappos said.
Many have weighed in, from British Prime Minister Tony Blair on behalf of AgustaWestland to the entire Connecticut congressional contingent on behalf of Sikorsky.
"So the US101 might offer opportunities for mutually beneficial cooperation," Mr. Blair wrote to the president in January 2003.
The Connecticut group added their opinion this month.
"We ... wish to express our concern about potential vulnerabilities to the presidential helicopter fleet should Marine One be produced with international components," two senators and five representatives said in a letter to President Bush, Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld and Navy Secretary Gordon R. England.
All the attention and rhetoric might affect the final decision, though not the way either company intended.
"It does encourage, if not force, the Navy to be as apolitical and as technically based in their decision as possible," Mr. Chao said.
"I suspect the delays are about crossing the t's and dotting the i's so that anyone can follow their reasoning and reach the same conclusion," he said.
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Sikorsky will win.
Interesting editorial on Rotorhub today.
Says Nick Lappos, Program Manager on the project: The battle is on a grander scale than just the competition.'
Explaining, Lappos says there is a need to anticipate the climate after VXX, when the S-92's technical merits could be obscured in the jumble of activity and torrent of commentary that wil flollow.
'They (Lockheed Martin) wil say - if we win - 'they won but it was political,' and that would not tell the story. Of course, if we lost, we will suffer the same thing but for a different reason: 'they must have lost because they weren't technically good enough.''
Lappos' dilemma - surely mirrored on the other side as well - highlights the importance of VXX for what is considered the real pot of gold in the medium helicopter market today, the USAF''s PRV (Personnel Recovery Vehicle) contract, the RFP for which is is anticipated by next May.
The irony for both sides is that by allowing VXX to become politicised the way it has - around the question of national identity - the VXX is locked into a context that doesn't allow the most meaninful points - the technical merits - to emerge.
Lockheed Martin continues to invest heavily in advertising - Sikorsky claims it doesn't have the matching resources even as the 'evidence' - in this case the submissions to the Navy - has been presented. Final proposals will go in before Christmas to the Marines, and Navy evaluators will prepare their decision by January 28. That date, Sikorsky officials here said, is hardening 'day by day.'
'We're pretty much certain there will be a decision at that time. No more slippages. There are just a lot of signals saying that's the plan and they'e sticking to it.'
There is, of couse, many a minefield twixt now and that final nod.
The decision can be seen as a 'two-parter ' in some ways, a technical merit-based evaluation, and one potentially manipulated to meet the needs of the White House politics du jour.
Lappos, a realist, says he is concerned about that, hence the need to keep telling his side of the story - but with the twist of beating back the points made against him by the other aide.
Lappos was in fine and often devatastingly funny form protecting the merits of his programme.
He is, perhaps, on the angry side about some of the things said, particularly about claims concerning payload range and costs. This is not the place to go into detail because others have heard the points before.
Lappos is cutting, however, about claims of a 30 percent size advantage ascribed to US-101. 'If you like, I'll give them a tape measure, and even show them how to use it,' he quipped, of the somewhat arcane debate going on about cabin volume.
In another part of the brief he says - or a chart does - 'A private in the US Army has a safer ride than a Prime Minister in an EH-101.' One of his main points is that some claims made by Lockheed Martin 'fly in the face that their's is a safer more powerful aircraft; it is not. It is less efficient.'
Observers in the media have revelled in the contest - one of the liveliest for a long time and one with the added interest-attracting feature of lots of lavish display advertising available to media not mormally seen inside aircraft factories at all. If we could say one thing for sure it is how we have admired the restraint shown by both sides in resisting the temptation to spin tales and tell whoppers to obviously non-technical and non-aviation press who wouldn't know the difference anyway.
So is this the end of the competition?
Well, there's still six or seven weeks left (including Christamas and the New Year) for the Agusta Westland Lockheed Martin folks to come back with a 'best and final' rejoinder,' but somehow we don't think they will.
The Navy was supposed to mandate a 'quiet time' in the VXX several weeks ago, but hasn't done so yet. It might be in everyone's interest if it did so soon.
We get the point - the industry gets the point - that this is a 'needle' contest for a lot of reasons. From our perspective it is an important one mostly for the future of the helicopter industry, whoever wins. This is an industry badly stalled in terms of technical development, almost totally reliant on the Government to feed it with orders. The fight is over, really, scraps, though important scraps that will go a long way to dictate how the whole industry fares in the future.
Yes you can say VXX is the key to PRV, and therefore a 'must win' for anyone wanting to win the big contests.
But we've seen things like PRV before - massive programmes with poorly organised constituencies supporting them, poor internal politics, questionable support from the PA and E communities that must approve the budgets and overall low priority status in the 'big world' of F-22 Raptors, Joint Strike Fighters and tankers - leased or unleased.
VXX has a good, real, chance of going ahead within a reasonable time. PRV doesn't. And both sides know it.
Interesting editorial on Rotorhub today.
"Thoughts As Marine One Goes Down To Wire
Stratford, CT: Why is Sikorsky still waging the war of words on the US Marine One Presidential Helicopter competition - VXX?
Stratford, CT: Why is Sikorsky still waging the war of words on the US Marine One Presidential Helicopter competition - VXX?
Says Nick Lappos, Program Manager on the project: The battle is on a grander scale than just the competition.'
Explaining, Lappos says there is a need to anticipate the climate after VXX, when the S-92's technical merits could be obscured in the jumble of activity and torrent of commentary that wil flollow.
'They (Lockheed Martin) wil say - if we win - 'they won but it was political,' and that would not tell the story. Of course, if we lost, we will suffer the same thing but for a different reason: 'they must have lost because they weren't technically good enough.''
Lappos' dilemma - surely mirrored on the other side as well - highlights the importance of VXX for what is considered the real pot of gold in the medium helicopter market today, the USAF''s PRV (Personnel Recovery Vehicle) contract, the RFP for which is is anticipated by next May.
The irony for both sides is that by allowing VXX to become politicised the way it has - around the question of national identity - the VXX is locked into a context that doesn't allow the most meaninful points - the technical merits - to emerge.
Lockheed Martin continues to invest heavily in advertising - Sikorsky claims it doesn't have the matching resources even as the 'evidence' - in this case the submissions to the Navy - has been presented. Final proposals will go in before Christmas to the Marines, and Navy evaluators will prepare their decision by January 28. That date, Sikorsky officials here said, is hardening 'day by day.'
'We're pretty much certain there will be a decision at that time. No more slippages. There are just a lot of signals saying that's the plan and they'e sticking to it.'
There is, of couse, many a minefield twixt now and that final nod.
The decision can be seen as a 'two-parter ' in some ways, a technical merit-based evaluation, and one potentially manipulated to meet the needs of the White House politics du jour.
Lappos, a realist, says he is concerned about that, hence the need to keep telling his side of the story - but with the twist of beating back the points made against him by the other aide.
Lappos was in fine and often devatastingly funny form protecting the merits of his programme.
He is, perhaps, on the angry side about some of the things said, particularly about claims concerning payload range and costs. This is not the place to go into detail because others have heard the points before.
Lappos is cutting, however, about claims of a 30 percent size advantage ascribed to US-101. 'If you like, I'll give them a tape measure, and even show them how to use it,' he quipped, of the somewhat arcane debate going on about cabin volume.
In another part of the brief he says - or a chart does - 'A private in the US Army has a safer ride than a Prime Minister in an EH-101.' One of his main points is that some claims made by Lockheed Martin 'fly in the face that their's is a safer more powerful aircraft; it is not. It is less efficient.'
Observers in the media have revelled in the contest - one of the liveliest for a long time and one with the added interest-attracting feature of lots of lavish display advertising available to media not mormally seen inside aircraft factories at all. If we could say one thing for sure it is how we have admired the restraint shown by both sides in resisting the temptation to spin tales and tell whoppers to obviously non-technical and non-aviation press who wouldn't know the difference anyway.
So is this the end of the competition?
Well, there's still six or seven weeks left (including Christamas and the New Year) for the Agusta Westland Lockheed Martin folks to come back with a 'best and final' rejoinder,' but somehow we don't think they will.
The Navy was supposed to mandate a 'quiet time' in the VXX several weeks ago, but hasn't done so yet. It might be in everyone's interest if it did so soon.
We get the point - the industry gets the point - that this is a 'needle' contest for a lot of reasons. From our perspective it is an important one mostly for the future of the helicopter industry, whoever wins. This is an industry badly stalled in terms of technical development, almost totally reliant on the Government to feed it with orders. The fight is over, really, scraps, though important scraps that will go a long way to dictate how the whole industry fares in the future.
Yes you can say VXX is the key to PRV, and therefore a 'must win' for anyone wanting to win the big contests.
But we've seen things like PRV before - massive programmes with poorly organised constituencies supporting them, poor internal politics, questionable support from the PA and E communities that must approve the budgets and overall low priority status in the 'big world' of F-22 Raptors, Joint Strike Fighters and tankers - leased or unleased.
VXX has a good, real, chance of going ahead within a reasonable time. PRV doesn't. And both sides know it.
Telling statement in an article about UK's Helicopter Fleet plan, in this week's Flight International, byline Tim Ripley, London:
Copyright Flight International
Type selection decisions are due in late January or early February, with contract negotiations to gather pace by mid-2005. A Ministry of Defence source says the process is not a formal competition, with the key consideration being to establish a policy that protects AgustaWestland's Yeovil plant and the EH101's future sales prospects.
The UK Department of Trade and Industry, Treasury and MoD are all likely to fight their corners in the battle over the UK helicopter industry's fate. AgustaWestland is keen to launch an enhanced troop transport version of its Merlin, dubbed the HC3+, featuring an improved transmission, fly-by wire flight controls, enhanced rotor blades, folding tail, significant weight reduction and additional maritime features. The Merlin CSP effort is also important as it will strongly influence the export potential of naval versions of the Merlin. At the point at which the EH101 is starting to ramp up foreign sales, now would be the worst possible moment for the UK to signal it was not going to invest in future versions of the helicopter, says one industry insider.
The UK Department of Trade and Industry, Treasury and MoD are all likely to fight their corners in the battle over the UK helicopter industry's fate. AgustaWestland is keen to launch an enhanced troop transport version of its Merlin, dubbed the HC3+, featuring an improved transmission, fly-by wire flight controls, enhanced rotor blades, folding tail, significant weight reduction and additional maritime features. The Merlin CSP effort is also important as it will strongly influence the export potential of naval versions of the Merlin. At the point at which the EH101 is starting to ramp up foreign sales, now would be the worst possible moment for the UK to signal it was not going to invest in future versions of the helicopter, says one industry insider.
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Interesting observation about the ability of UK helicopter industry to withstand competition:
"A Ministry of Defence source says the process is not a formal competition, with the key consideration being to establish a policy that protects AgustaWestland's Yeovil plant and the EH101's future sales prospects."
I guess the shoe is not on the other foot when it comes to EH-101 fairly treated in US competition for Presidential and Air Force missions. I wonder how those Sikorsky fellows handle such news!
"A Ministry of Defence source says the process is not a formal competition, with the key consideration being to establish a policy that protects AgustaWestland's Yeovil plant and the EH101's future sales prospects."
I guess the shoe is not on the other foot when it comes to EH-101 fairly treated in US competition for Presidential and Air Force missions. I wonder how those Sikorsky fellows handle such news!
My money is on Sikorsky....Nick can be a formidable opponent especially when he is right. (Just ask Lu!) But he can be gracious. (Just ask me!)
Being ambridextreous and having prehensile toes....knowing I shall never get to fly either of the two machines....from all I have read....the S-92 is the better machine. It has a much longer history to fall back on when considering reliability (all dem Blackhawk, SeaHawk , PaveHawk, and JayHawk hours), the homecourt advantage (sorry guys but the Sikorsky is USA made) and the 101 no matter how you dress it up....is an immigrant.
Diet called us out....Eacott is looking at things completely upside down.....So....I put my money on the 92....stand with Brother Lappos....and will take bets as they come. Flying Lawyer can hold the stakes.
Since FL is holding the stakes...and Nick is a party to the fight....that leaves me and RJ. Howabout it RJ....doughnuts to dog droppings....FL holds the stakes in his mouth.....I say the 92 over the 101....care to wager?
Being ambridextreous and having prehensile toes....knowing I shall never get to fly either of the two machines....from all I have read....the S-92 is the better machine. It has a much longer history to fall back on when considering reliability (all dem Blackhawk, SeaHawk , PaveHawk, and JayHawk hours), the homecourt advantage (sorry guys but the Sikorsky is USA made) and the 101 no matter how you dress it up....is an immigrant.
Diet called us out....Eacott is looking at things completely upside down.....So....I put my money on the 92....stand with Brother Lappos....and will take bets as they come. Flying Lawyer can hold the stakes.
Since FL is holding the stakes...and Nick is a party to the fight....that leaves me and RJ. Howabout it RJ....doughnuts to dog droppings....FL holds the stakes in his mouth.....I say the 92 over the 101....care to wager?
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Well, I don't have enough inside knowledge to make a bet. It has nothing to do with the technical aspects, it's going to come down to who applied the most grease to which palms. Here in the good old USA, we have the best government money can buy (at least it has been bought), and bribing politicians is completely legal, as long as you call it a 'campaign contribution'. It's a pity that democracy has lost out to capitalism, but those are the facts.
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Gomer,
Wow! Tough words! I have been dealing with the USN and USMC for the last 2 1/2 years on this one, and they are really tough, fair and generally very technically sharp. It is a shame that you think this place runs like a Banana republic.
I don't know who will win, but I do know that there is a cell next to Martha Stewart with the "very long vacation plan" for anyone who tries what you think is the normal way of selecting the winner in these contests!
Wow! Tough words! I have been dealing with the USN and USMC for the last 2 1/2 years on this one, and they are really tough, fair and generally very technically sharp. It is a shame that you think this place runs like a Banana republic.
I don't know who will win, but I do know that there is a cell next to Martha Stewart with the "very long vacation plan" for anyone who tries what you think is the normal way of selecting the winner in these contests!
Nigel,
You got a dinner?
Mind you, I've still got those Whirlwind & SeaKing ties from dear old Westlands, plus a spiffy Future Lynx keyring 
And after 1000's of hours in S61's and S76's.........nada
You got a dinner?
Mind you, I've still got those Whirlwind & SeaKing ties from dear old Westlands, plus a spiffy Future Lynx keyring And after 1000's of hours in S61's and S76's.........nada
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Ah, but I was one of the first Wessex Mk5 pilots and flew it at Farnborough plus their chief pilot tried to chat up my girl friend at the time.
So I deserved a dinner!!
So I deserved a dinner!!
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Choosing the S-92 would make Tony Blair cry. I can just imagine the pathetic primary school scenes now "but Dubya, you promised........." and that will provide the UK opposition party a great lever for what looks like a May-05 Election....... or even Cherie Blair's reaction (she's bound to be hanging off her Tony's arm), which will be a mix between (a) rabbit in the headights (b) wide-mouthed-frog and (c) a cartoon cat with fur standing on end.
Given that it's going to be a political and not a technical decision, Dubya will need to weigh up between the American people (lower priority, they just voted him back in) and Blair (higher priority, he needs him in power to support Dubya's wish to finish off Iraq and then invade Iran, NKorea and probably a few stations in between).
So, here's a vote for the 101.
Given that it's going to be a political and not a technical decision, Dubya will need to weigh up between the American people (lower priority, they just voted him back in) and Blair (higher priority, he needs him in power to support Dubya's wish to finish off Iraq and then invade Iran, NKorea and probably a few stations in between).
So, here's a vote for the 101.
Join Date: Oct 2003
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Nick, I think the USN and USMC will do as they're told. If you believe otherwise, I have some land a few miles south of Fourchon, LA that I'd like to sell. The decision on the Vxx will be made by politicians, for purely political reasons. The current system of campaign financing is, quite simply, legalized bribery, and won't change easily, because those who have the power to change it have no desire to, being the beneficiaries of the present system. McCain tried, and got slapped down. I truly wish it weren't so, but it is.
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So USA is NOT a Banana Republic. Oh come on be realistic and open your eyes and ears. Whatever you are told that money is 'official' but it still is greasing palms IF money is passed from one to the other for anything that is not invoiced MUST in reality be palm greasing and the US politicians are very good at propaganda or data information if you want a different explanation on underhand operations which looks on the surface as quite genuine. Get real you American Boys and see through the big and mighty words of your politicians. You are all so easily fed on persuasive words of little content and as such the S92 will win the contest. I don't understand where the 101 supporters think they stand in the arena of debate on this matter, they are throwing good money after more good money on a fruitless mission. All this discussion is only a smoke screen to make it look a fair contest. Those of clear thinking will understand that Sikorsky has it in the bag through the support established by other previously supplied and comendable helicopters. Who in their right mind would buy a Brit/Italian machine which although is used by others in a role similar to that required has no real substance. My vote therefore must be S92
Here's a chance for Nick to do a marketing effort.....e-mail beers all around....virtual neckties...(heavens knows why a self respecting helicopter pilot would want/need a choke rag beats me!)...and ethernet key rings. Right then...off you go Nick....get 'er done!