US Presidential Helicopter Bid (and Result)
Avoid imitations
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I think Lu might have something to say about this...... Has George W rang him yet? 
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... I'm biased, but ...
I've had hopes for this day since I saw the enthusiasm Lockheed Martin had for the product. I've worked with salesmen for years, but these guys spoke with the evangelical enthusiasm of true believers.
It's a great honour and responsibility to fly any Head of State and doubly so when the country involved is a much respected ally. In the past AgustaWestland has had the priviledge of providing and supporting Her Majesty's helicopter fleet, transport for the Italian President and VVIP aircraft for other nations. (Ironically, most of these aircraft were based on Sikorsky products, but much improved to meet the higher level requirement of the role). I'm confident my colleagues will follow in the footsteps of their forebears and discharge their role within this Lockheed Martin programme dilligently and with pride.
I am also confident that whilst either platform would have done the job, the US101 will do it better. I have stood in it, it's roomy, classy, robust, clever and has real presence ... Just what the Commander in Chief needs. (Huge presence - You should have seen 6 EH101s in tight formation over Yeovil during the development programme!)
On a very parochial note, I am also very pleased that a number of jobs are secured here, and many more created throughout the USA. Well done Team US101.
Nimby, Yeovil
I've had hopes for this day since I saw the enthusiasm Lockheed Martin had for the product. I've worked with salesmen for years, but these guys spoke with the evangelical enthusiasm of true believers.
It's a great honour and responsibility to fly any Head of State and doubly so when the country involved is a much respected ally. In the past AgustaWestland has had the priviledge of providing and supporting Her Majesty's helicopter fleet, transport for the Italian President and VVIP aircraft for other nations. (Ironically, most of these aircraft were based on Sikorsky products, but much improved to meet the higher level requirement of the role). I'm confident my colleagues will follow in the footsteps of their forebears and discharge their role within this Lockheed Martin programme dilligently and with pride.
I am also confident that whilst either platform would have done the job, the US101 will do it better. I have stood in it, it's roomy, classy, robust, clever and has real presence ... Just what the Commander in Chief needs. (Huge presence - You should have seen 6 EH101s in tight formation over Yeovil during the development programme!)
On a very parochial note, I am also very pleased that a number of jobs are secured here, and many more created throughout the USA. Well done Team US101.
Nimby, Yeovil
ZH844
"Well done AW now sort our Merlins out please!"
Isn't the prime contractor on the Merlin Lockheed-Martin? Are they not responsible for the logistics support just as they were on the C-130J?
Echo your congrats though, that is one SIGNIFICANT contract award.
How ironic eh? The replacement for the Sea King, as US design licence built in the UK, is now a UK design licence built in the US!
"Well done AW now sort our Merlins out please!"
Isn't the prime contractor on the Merlin Lockheed-Martin? Are they not responsible for the logistics support just as they were on the C-130J?
Echo your congrats though, that is one SIGNIFICANT contract award.
How ironic eh? The replacement for the Sea King, as US design licence built in the UK, is now a UK design licence built in the US!
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Press release from Citizens Against Government Waste
WASHINGTON, Jan. 28 /PRNewswire/ -- Citizens Against Government Waste (CAGW) today applauded the decision by the Department of Defense (DOD) to award Lockheed Martin the $1.6 billion Navy contract to deliver the next generation of presidential helicopters.
The winning bid means Sikorsky, a company with a checkered history that has supplied presidential helicopters without competition since the Eisenhower presidency, will be replaced."Today taxpayers avoided what could have been another helicopter sinkhole had Sikorsky won the contract," CAGW President Tom Schatz said.
"Twenty years ago, Sikorsky's Comanche seemingly had it all: dazzling graphics, wide political support and great promise. However, the helicopter never materialized; $8 billion later, Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld mercifully discontinued the project in February, 2004."Sikorsky's bid for the Marine One contract was riddled with red flags signaling the strong possibility of another Comanche-style disaster.
Sikorsky proposed a Marine One fleet based on its S-92 commercial helicopter. The first S-92 helicopter promised in July 2001 was not actually available until late 2004, three years behind schedule. Furthermore, Sikorsky admitted that the modifications for the proposed presidential version were still in the "development phase.""Thankfully, DOD learned its lesson and chose not to head down the same expensive and ultimately fruitless road it took back in 1985," Schatz continued.
The long-postponed debate between the two contractors was often clouded by Washington spin. Sikorsky draped its contract bid with American flags, insinuating that Lockheed presented a less "American" choice. The Lockheed team includes some foreign owned companies, but the vast majority of manufacturing will still be done by American workers with American parts.
Some members of Congress with a parochial interest in supporting Sikorsky have suggested introducing legislation to overturn the decision."Congress must stay out of this," Schatz said. "DOD showed common sense by choosing a contractor that is expected to stay on budget and on schedule. With a record $427 billion budget deficit predicted for fiscal 2005, taxpayers deserve to have costs stay on the ground."
Citizens Against Government Waste is the nation's largest nonpartisan, nonprofit organization dedicated to eliminating waste, fraud, abuse, and mismanagement in government.
Citizens Against Government Waste CONTACT: Tom Finnigan or Lauren Cook of Citizens Against GovernmentWaste, +1-202-467-5300Web site: http://www.cagw.org/
The winning bid means Sikorsky, a company with a checkered history that has supplied presidential helicopters without competition since the Eisenhower presidency, will be replaced."Today taxpayers avoided what could have been another helicopter sinkhole had Sikorsky won the contract," CAGW President Tom Schatz said.
"Twenty years ago, Sikorsky's Comanche seemingly had it all: dazzling graphics, wide political support and great promise. However, the helicopter never materialized; $8 billion later, Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld mercifully discontinued the project in February, 2004."Sikorsky's bid for the Marine One contract was riddled with red flags signaling the strong possibility of another Comanche-style disaster.
Sikorsky proposed a Marine One fleet based on its S-92 commercial helicopter. The first S-92 helicopter promised in July 2001 was not actually available until late 2004, three years behind schedule. Furthermore, Sikorsky admitted that the modifications for the proposed presidential version were still in the "development phase.""Thankfully, DOD learned its lesson and chose not to head down the same expensive and ultimately fruitless road it took back in 1985," Schatz continued.
The long-postponed debate between the two contractors was often clouded by Washington spin. Sikorsky draped its contract bid with American flags, insinuating that Lockheed presented a less "American" choice. The Lockheed team includes some foreign owned companies, but the vast majority of manufacturing will still be done by American workers with American parts.
Some members of Congress with a parochial interest in supporting Sikorsky have suggested introducing legislation to overturn the decision."Congress must stay out of this," Schatz said. "DOD showed common sense by choosing a contractor that is expected to stay on budget and on schedule. With a record $427 billion budget deficit predicted for fiscal 2005, taxpayers deserve to have costs stay on the ground."
Citizens Against Government Waste is the nation's largest nonpartisan, nonprofit organization dedicated to eliminating waste, fraud, abuse, and mismanagement in government.
Citizens Against Government Waste CONTACT: Tom Finnigan or Lauren Cook of Citizens Against GovernmentWaste, +1-202-467-5300Web site: http://www.cagw.org/
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Bl@@dy Hell!!!!!
Never has my gob been so smacked!!!!!
......................and it's not even April 1st!!!!!
No doubt the bars in Yeovil will have done a roaring trade this evening!!!
......................and it's not even April 1st!!!!!
No doubt the bars in Yeovil will have done a roaring trade this evening!!!
Iconoclast
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I have a sick feeling about this.
To: Shy Torque
I have an unlisted number.
Well if Nick won't say anything about this travesty I will.
The US-101 will have to undergo major design changes to achieve the same build standard of the S-92. The EH-101 transmission is designed to have the mast shear in the event of a transmission seizure. There is a strong possibility that this was never demonstrated to prove the concept. If this test was performed using the actual components then I stand corrected. The energy to effect this fracture is the stored energy in the rotor system. This energy must bottom out the dampers in order to have a mechanical lockup with the rotorhead and develop the torque necessary to fracture the shaft. The dampers according to their manufacture will not withstand the compressive forces and will fracture under the load applying an extreme side load on the elastomeric bearings resulting in possible loss of control.
The safety hazard analyses did not consider catastrophic failures of a single component that would cause loss of control of the helicopter. Three EH-101s have suffered single point catastrophic failures resulting in loss of the helicopter. Even though the catastrophic failures were not noted in the Safety Hazards Analyses (SHA) the CAA and the RAI certified the EH-101 and soon the FAA will certify it. In order for the EH-101 / US-101 to be properly certified the SHA will have to be redone resulting in a lot of design changes.
When I worked on the program Agusta and Westland were using different computers that could not talk to each other. In other words each company was preparing their respective Reliability, Maintainability and Safety Hazards Analyses on computer formats that could not be joined to provide a cohesive analysis. Westland was supposed to develop a program that would allow joining of the two systems. I was on the program for two years after the decision to create the program and during that time the program was never developed.
A similar situation existed within Agusta where the engineering department had a different computer system than the product support departments so they could not communicate with each other and engineering refused access to their computer by product support.
We’ll see what transpires when Lockheed Martin comes to realize what I have stated above.
There is a lot more I can say but the last time I said it I got hit with a lawsuit.
I think Lu might have something to say about this...... Has George W rang him yet?
Well if Nick won't say anything about this travesty I will.
The US-101 will have to undergo major design changes to achieve the same build standard of the S-92. The EH-101 transmission is designed to have the mast shear in the event of a transmission seizure. There is a strong possibility that this was never demonstrated to prove the concept. If this test was performed using the actual components then I stand corrected. The energy to effect this fracture is the stored energy in the rotor system. This energy must bottom out the dampers in order to have a mechanical lockup with the rotorhead and develop the torque necessary to fracture the shaft. The dampers according to their manufacture will not withstand the compressive forces and will fracture under the load applying an extreme side load on the elastomeric bearings resulting in possible loss of control.
The safety hazard analyses did not consider catastrophic failures of a single component that would cause loss of control of the helicopter. Three EH-101s have suffered single point catastrophic failures resulting in loss of the helicopter. Even though the catastrophic failures were not noted in the Safety Hazards Analyses (SHA) the CAA and the RAI certified the EH-101 and soon the FAA will certify it. In order for the EH-101 / US-101 to be properly certified the SHA will have to be redone resulting in a lot of design changes.
When I worked on the program Agusta and Westland were using different computers that could not talk to each other. In other words each company was preparing their respective Reliability, Maintainability and Safety Hazards Analyses on computer formats that could not be joined to provide a cohesive analysis. Westland was supposed to develop a program that would allow joining of the two systems. I was on the program for two years after the decision to create the program and during that time the program was never developed.
A similar situation existed within Agusta where the engineering department had a different computer system than the product support departments so they could not communicate with each other and engineering refused access to their computer by product support.
We’ll see what transpires when Lockheed Martin comes to realize what I have stated above.
There is a lot more I can say but the last time I said it I got hit with a lawsuit.
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No doubt the bars in Yeovil will have done a roaring trade this evening!!!
Lu,
Why don't you build something instead of bitch about your better's designs. Throw 1000 rocks and you might hit one or two in your career, but professionals only target real problems.
The Sultan
Why don't you build something instead of bitch about your better's designs. Throw 1000 rocks and you might hit one or two in your career, but professionals only target real problems.
The Sultan
My heart felt sympathies to Nick and the Sikorsky team....I know they are very disappointed and rightfully so.
I could sing Hosannahs too if I knew a 6.1 Billion dollar contract was in contest.....certainly would not let facts or data get in my way of praising my product.
I could sing Hosannahs too if I knew a 6.1 Billion dollar contract was in contest.....certainly would not let facts or data get in my way of praising my product.
Iconoclast
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And Bell doesn't have problems?
To: The Sultan
The "professionals" at Bell and Lockheed Martin will encounter many "real" problems before the US-101 ever sees an olive drab Marine Corps livery.
but professionals only target real problems.
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A closely fought contest between two very capable machines.
Nick deserves full marks for not only putting his side of the situation in very clear, professionally balanced terms here on this forum, but also in all the other public arenas. I'm doubly impressed that he was able to contribute to many other discussions here at the same time. Not many other senior program people could or would do the same thing.
I don't know any of the 101 team personally (maybe I do, but they're hiding it), but you can be sure they were working flat out like the Sikorsky team.
And like many other things, it wasn't just one aspect that would have made the difference. I remember speaking to Nick about what won the Commanche bid for the Sikorsky-Boeing team, and he said it wasn't just the airframe, but it was the integrated logistics support, the engineering approach, the computer architecture, and so on.
Hopefully we'll find out the main reasons.
Nick- my commiserations
Team 101 - my congratulations.
Nick deserves full marks for not only putting his side of the situation in very clear, professionally balanced terms here on this forum, but also in all the other public arenas. I'm doubly impressed that he was able to contribute to many other discussions here at the same time. Not many other senior program people could or would do the same thing.
I don't know any of the 101 team personally (maybe I do, but they're hiding it), but you can be sure they were working flat out like the Sikorsky team.
And like many other things, it wasn't just one aspect that would have made the difference. I remember speaking to Nick about what won the Commanche bid for the Sikorsky-Boeing team, and he said it wasn't just the airframe, but it was the integrated logistics support, the engineering approach, the computer architecture, and so on.
Hopefully we'll find out the main reasons.
Nick- my commiserations
Team 101 - my congratulations.
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I admit I've got mixed views on the result.
On a patriotic level, I'm obviously pleased for the British aerospace industry and workforce but, on the other hand, think taxpayers' money should be spent on home products whenever possible as a matter of policy and principle.
Did the best helicopter win? I don't know enough to express a view, but all the reports I've read about the 92 in Rotorheads and elsewhere have been extremely favourable.
Did politics play a part? Politics plays a part in everything to do with governments.
Does anyone seriously believe White House politics played no part in this decision? In normal times, it would have worked to Sikorsky's advantage as the American manufacturer but, after the British Prime Minister has spent so much time running around the world playing obedient lapdog to George W? And staying loyal to him even when much of what was said has been discredited and turns out to be untrue? Maybe we at least got something in return for Blair's blind loyalty.
On a personal level, I'm disappointed for Nick. He's a good friend and I know he worked so hard heading Sikorsky's bid - I saw it for myself when visiting him.
Many people assumed Sikorsky would automatically win because theirs was the American contender to fly the American President - I did. Nick never thought that, and always said there were many factors which might cause it to go either way.
I heartily agree with Shawn's comments. I would have understood if Nick had said he was taking a break from Rotorheads but, even when doing one of the most pressured and high-profile jobs he's done in his distinguished career, Nick still made the time to continue his contributions to this forum. I can't imagine many such senior company executives doing that.
Congratulations to Team 101.
Disappointed for you Nick - you couldn't have done more.
On a patriotic level, I'm obviously pleased for the British aerospace industry and workforce but, on the other hand, think taxpayers' money should be spent on home products whenever possible as a matter of policy and principle.
Did the best helicopter win? I don't know enough to express a view, but all the reports I've read about the 92 in Rotorheads and elsewhere have been extremely favourable.
Did politics play a part? Politics plays a part in everything to do with governments.
Does anyone seriously believe White House politics played no part in this decision? In normal times, it would have worked to Sikorsky's advantage as the American manufacturer but, after the British Prime Minister has spent so much time running around the world playing obedient lapdog to George W? And staying loyal to him even when much of what was said has been discredited and turns out to be untrue? Maybe we at least got something in return for Blair's blind loyalty.
On a personal level, I'm disappointed for Nick. He's a good friend and I know he worked so hard heading Sikorsky's bid - I saw it for myself when visiting him.
Many people assumed Sikorsky would automatically win because theirs was the American contender to fly the American President - I did. Nick never thought that, and always said there were many factors which might cause it to go either way.
I heartily agree with Shawn's comments. I would have understood if Nick had said he was taking a break from Rotorheads but, even when doing one of the most pressured and high-profile jobs he's done in his distinguished career, Nick still made the time to continue his contributions to this forum. I can't imagine many such senior company executives doing that.
Congratulations to Team 101.
Disappointed for you Nick - you couldn't have done more.
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Now - An Italian company's design built under license in the US.
How much work/income will the Yeovil economy get as the maximum possible has to be spent on assembly/sub-contractors in the US?
This is not a gripe, I'm genuinely interested being a native.
The word from an ex-sqn mucker who was on VH-1 was thay they were mightily impressed by the 101, particularly 'the smoothness of the ride', with the active vibration reduction working.
Good on ya Bush, hostages freed and helicopter bought in the same week.
Apologies to the families of the Black Watch for having to pay for it.
How much work/income will the Yeovil economy get as the maximum possible has to be spent on assembly/sub-contractors in the US?
This is not a gripe, I'm genuinely interested being a native.
The word from an ex-sqn mucker who was on VH-1 was thay they were mightily impressed by the 101, particularly 'the smoothness of the ride', with the active vibration reduction working.
Good on ya Bush, hostages freed and helicopter bought in the same week.
Apologies to the families of the Black Watch for having to pay for it.