Gazelle: Flying, operating, buying
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Cyclic hotline - the N reg one is currently listed as airworthiness type "not specified" 
- see http://www.landings.com/evird.acgi?p...&src=_landings %2Fpages%2Fsearch_nnr.html&nnumber=911XW
- see http://www.landings.com/evird.acgi?p...&src=_landings %2Fpages%2Fsearch_nnr.html&nnumber=911XW
Senis Semper Fidelis
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Gazelle control's
Flying just of late with my friend who owns a Gazelle, I was in the LH seat and was invited to fly the machine, but I found the cyclic appeared to be biased in its mounting, in other words the stick was cranked towards my left leg, now this made it very uncomfortable to control the craft, but when I tried it with my left hand it was set just right for that, the owner said he didn't know why it was this way, but it struck me that it may be possible to control the main collective with my right hand, and the cyclic with my left hand, is this so , or could it be that the LH cyclic is adjusted and mounted incorrectly, I hope some of you Gazelle pilots can help, for the machine is going in for a yearly and if this can be altered,then is the appropriate time to do it.
My Regards
My Regards
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Take it from me - dont ever try to hover the aircraft with your hands on the opposite controls -I did it as a demo with a QHI a few years ago for him to show me why you dont do it. I must have maintained control for about 3 seconds!
The feel is definitely different in the LHS. I cant remember, because it is a while since I flew a whistling chicken leg but maybe because of tail rotor roll it hovers left wing low, so the cyclic may be biased to give a disc tilt to the right with the stick central in the hover, which would require left cyclic in fwd flight when TRR is no longer a snag
The feel is definitely different in the LHS. I cant remember, because it is a while since I flew a whistling chicken leg but maybe because of tail rotor roll it hovers left wing low, so the cyclic may be biased to give a disc tilt to the right with the stick central in the hover, which would require left cyclic in fwd flight when TRR is no longer a snag
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Could this effect be a contributer, Vfrpilot:
The lateral thrust of the tail rotor makes us have to compensate with some bank angle in a hoverto keep from translating laterally. Typical helicopters with high tail rotors need about 3 degrees of bank in a hover to compensate. Using the French clockwise main rotor rotation convention, the side thrust of the fenestron requires about 5 degrees of right roll (and the concurrent right cyclic position) to balance, because the fenestron is low, on the roll axis of the aircraft. If the fenestron were significntly above the roll axis of the machine, the roll moment of the fenestron thrust would help reduce that bank angle to the more typical 3 degrees. In OGE hover, where the fan thrust is even higher, the roll is 6 or 6.5 degrees.
This larger roll angle creates the noticible right lateral stick motion that you see, Vfrpilot. Where you are used to some left stick in a typical helicopter, you see even more right stick in the Gazelle, and the diference is quite obvious.
We faced this issue when we layed out Comanche, and we decided that the 5 to 6 degrees of roll in a hover was OK. The Fly By Wire stick made it easy to hide any stick trim issues, of course.
[ 16 January 2002: Message edited by: Nick Lappos ]</p>
The lateral thrust of the tail rotor makes us have to compensate with some bank angle in a hoverto keep from translating laterally. Typical helicopters with high tail rotors need about 3 degrees of bank in a hover to compensate. Using the French clockwise main rotor rotation convention, the side thrust of the fenestron requires about 5 degrees of right roll (and the concurrent right cyclic position) to balance, because the fenestron is low, on the roll axis of the aircraft. If the fenestron were significntly above the roll axis of the machine, the roll moment of the fenestron thrust would help reduce that bank angle to the more typical 3 degrees. In OGE hover, where the fan thrust is even higher, the roll is 6 or 6.5 degrees.
This larger roll angle creates the noticible right lateral stick motion that you see, Vfrpilot. Where you are used to some left stick in a typical helicopter, you see even more right stick in the Gazelle, and the diference is quite obvious.
We faced this issue when we layed out Comanche, and we decided that the 5 to 6 degrees of roll in a hover was OK. The Fly By Wire stick made it easy to hide any stick trim issues, of course.
[ 16 January 2002: Message edited by: Nick Lappos ]</p>
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I don't know where I saw this, Nick, but is it true or a fallocy?:
The Comanche has no pedals; Tail is controlled by rotating the cyclic grip.
I would think with FBW that could be possible, if the mechanical setup of the stick could be achieved.
The Comanche has no pedals; Tail is controlled by rotating the cyclic grip.
I would think with FBW that could be possible, if the mechanical setup of the stick could be achieved.
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The bloke who taught me to fly helicopters crashed a Gazelle on Andover airfield demonstrating the LHS right hand hold the collective gag - and he had thousands of hours. My advice is not to.
I think the real reason the cyclic is offset, is to give you a bad back. Or perhaps you have a bent left cyclic. Or perhaps to give your right leg more room as you can only move your left leg outwards.
My money is on the bad back, it works so well.
I think the real reason the cyclic is offset, is to give you a bad back. Or perhaps you have a bent left cyclic. Or perhaps to give your right leg more room as you can only move your left leg outwards.
My money is on the bad back, it works so well.
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RW-1,
It is true, the FBW controls on Comanche use a twist of the cyclic to control yaw. The stick is a sort of joystick from a video game, with triplex sensors to pick up cyclic, collective and yaw controls. There is also an electric collective stick for the left hand.
Regarding the question about left handed flying, when I was in flight school, I flew the OH-13E and G (basically Bell 47's). From the left seat of that aircraft, it was easy to grasp the right seat collective with the right hand and the cyclic with the left. I did three traffic patterns with friends watching, on a bet, with reversed hands. The only issue I had was working the twist grip throttle as I raised the collective.
It is true, the FBW controls on Comanche use a twist of the cyclic to control yaw. The stick is a sort of joystick from a video game, with triplex sensors to pick up cyclic, collective and yaw controls. There is also an electric collective stick for the left hand.
Regarding the question about left handed flying, when I was in flight school, I flew the OH-13E and G (basically Bell 47's). From the left seat of that aircraft, it was easy to grasp the right seat collective with the right hand and the cyclic with the left. I did three traffic patterns with friends watching, on a bet, with reversed hands. The only issue I had was working the twist grip throttle as I raised the collective.
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Ahh Thanks Nick! 
(Sorry Peter, don't mean to hijack the topic ....)
That seems to me that it will feel more "Natural" in a bird (cyclic twist). Does the flight control software also assist in maintaining trim in changing flight conditions (such as pulling in lots of collective, dropping, etc.) or just when (I'm assuming) in a steady state condition, such as established in cruise?
I only ask for I could see subtle twitches of ones cyclic hand being transferred ...
You must tell us more about it. (At least, what you are allowed to tell us about it).
Please feel free to open another thread on this fabulous machine. (I got to see it fly by on the way to Ft. Lauderdale Beach for a display a while back )
[ 16 January 2002: Message edited by: RW-1 ]</p>
(Sorry Peter, don't mean to hijack the topic ....)
That seems to me that it will feel more "Natural" in a bird (cyclic twist). Does the flight control software also assist in maintaining trim in changing flight conditions (such as pulling in lots of collective, dropping, etc.) or just when (I'm assuming) in a steady state condition, such as established in cruise?
I only ask for I could see subtle twitches of ones cyclic hand being transferred ...
You must tell us more about it. (At least, what you are allowed to tell us about it).
Please feel free to open another thread on this fabulous machine. (I got to see it fly by on the way to Ft. Lauderdale Beach for a display a while back
)[ 16 January 2002: Message edited by: RW-1 ]</p>
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From the LH seat the cyclic is off set to the left slightly. This will allow more room for your right leg along side the Instrument panel. It will also allow room for the roof sight control unit to be positioned in the military aircraft. Remember it is a military designed machine.
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When we went on deployment and only one pilot was responsible to fly the machine I would be asked to adjust the position of the cyclic to make it more comfortable for him to fly the helicopter. Of course the amount of displacement of the cyclic was limited by the adjustment of the hard stops as well as the control limits.
[ 16 January 2002: Message edited by: Lu Zuckerman ]</p>
[ 16 January 2002: Message edited by: Lu Zuckerman ]</p>
Senis Semper Fidelis
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Good Morning ppruner's,
Flying Lawyer, I have no intention of trying that, I was only wondering if that was one possibility, the most likly explanation to the way it is cranked,is to allow for the sighting periscope in the original military design,and leg room, as pointed out by Greenarrow( was there Pacific class steam loco of that name?), but it is most uncomfortable whatever it was done for.
My Regards to all
Peter B
Flying Lawyer, I have no intention of trying that, I was only wondering if that was one possibility, the most likly explanation to the way it is cranked,is to allow for the sighting periscope in the original military design,and leg room, as pointed out by Greenarrow( was there Pacific class steam loco of that name?), but it is most uncomfortable whatever it was done for.
My Regards to all
Peter B
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Try this for the right size.
If the left hand cyclic control was not "cranked" slightly to the left, there would be a distinct possibility that there would be a problem for a pilot in the right hand seat landing right skid up slope running out of right cyclic as the left cyclic control jams up against the left hand pilots right leg.---------got it ?? "leff right leff right leff right leff" !!
QHI's come in handy some times don't they ? ex 137
If the left hand cyclic control was not "cranked" slightly to the left, there would be a distinct possibility that there would be a problem for a pilot in the right hand seat landing right skid up slope running out of right cyclic as the left cyclic control jams up against the left hand pilots right leg.---------got it ?? "leff right leff right leff right leff" !!
QHI's come in handy some times don't they ? ex 137
HeliFirst
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Please confirm Gazelle in question is civil built! not stretched nor recent ex mil. I can only remember very small offset on civil built.
Does any one remember the Dragonfly wasit I was told many moons back that there was only one collective could be fitted and that the Instructor was taught to fly left hand cyclic all the time!!! Lucky chap
topilot or to pprune
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Does any one remember the Dragonfly wasit I was told many moons back that there was only one collective could be fitted and that the Instructor was taught to fly left hand cyclic all the time!!! Lucky chap
topilot or to pprune
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HI all,
As to the flying with hands reversed, not a good idea. I know of one incident where a well experienced pilot rolled a R22 showing this very thing to the chap in the R/H seat.
It's funny how one's own brain can sabotage one at times.
fly safe
Hone
As to the flying with hands reversed, not a good idea. I know of one incident where a well experienced pilot rolled a R22 showing this very thing to the chap in the R/H seat.
It's funny how one's own brain can sabotage one at times.
fly safe
Hone
Senis Semper Fidelis
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Good morning Ppruner's,
The Gaz I refer to is, I belive a Civvie built 341/2, and was completly rebuilt at AM last year, with most componants new, as far as the recent warning (tie rods) it is ok.. .I may have phrased my original post badly , but all I was doing was enquiring about the possibility of changing hands and flying from the Lhs, I was only wondering about this because of the lhs cranked cyclic control! I thank you all for you obviouse concern that I was about to try something that would have ended in tears(or worse) <img src="eek.gif" border="0">
The Gaz I refer to is, I belive a Civvie built 341/2, and was completly rebuilt at AM last year, with most componants new, as far as the recent warning (tie rods) it is ok.. .I may have phrased my original post badly , but all I was doing was enquiring about the possibility of changing hands and flying from the Lhs, I was only wondering about this because of the lhs cranked cyclic control! I thank you all for you obviouse concern that I was about to try something that would have ended in tears(or worse) <img src="eek.gif" border="0">
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The Gazelle was never equipped with a roof sight when it originally entered military service. The reason is purely to allow right cyclic input without fouling the left hand occupants right leg due to the proximity of the centre console.
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BUYING/OWNING A GAZELLE
I learnt to fly heli's in R22's then progressed to R44's,still low time I thought of buying my own. .R44 Astro,then one day I saw an advert in an aviation magazine about an aution of MOD Aircraft and Engines, I promptly sent off for the catalogue(£10.00)and then spoke to the CAA about registering an ex-mil Gazelle, they basically told me it would only be given a Permit to Fly and only then after the history could be established and then verified and also a complete strip down would be necessary.I would not have had the slightest clue how to research for that information so I put that idea to bed and had a look at an old Jet Ranger that was at the top end of my budget,I was hugely disappointed with the interior/exterior condition although the times seemed good,however I wanted to own a heli I could be proud of so that idea was dropped as well,so it looked like my first heli was to be one of Frank's fine machines,that was until I saw the July(2001)edition of Pilot magazine in which there was a lengthy aritcle about ex-military Gazelles.. .At the begining of Febuary I first saw the heli I was to own and yes it was Love at first sight but my head over come these emotions and set to work checking times and history etc,then with a flight in the heli my heart kicked in again,but when we touched down my head took over once more and I thought that I should give it careful consideration with regards to the cost of running a gazelle which is more expensive than a B206 etc.. .After careful deliberations with my financial adviser(wife)it was agreed quite quickly that I should purchase the Gazelle, which I did before she changed her mind,I think she liked the luxury red carpets and cream leather seats that perfectly match(in my opinion)the bare metal respray in metallic burgundy with slight gold and silver stripes.. .Thats the story so far, I am due to do the conversion soon so when I have anyone who can read a map is welcome for a ride.I shall be using the heli for personnal transport ie business and pleasure so the Permit to fly should not restrict me to much (VFR only no night flying etc).. .I will let you know of any pitfalls when I find them,so has anyone got any questions,observations or advice because as with anything involving heli's I am all ears or eyes when Ppruneing.. .This is my first thread so be gentle with me.. . . . <small>[ 12 March 2002, 11:33: Message edited by: Heliport ]</small>