North Sea Jigsaw
My source tells me that Bond Offshore pilots are being individually interviewed by management and are being told they will be required to sign a waiver to the european working time directive. Is this true?
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Joedirt,
Have a look at the links below. It's heavy reading but should give you some answers.
http://www.dft.gov.uk/stellent/group...on_028337.hcsp
http://www.dft.gov.uk/stellent/group...on_032810.hcsp
Basically, you can not exceed 2000 duty hours a year so it has big implications for any one running on a 24 hour or 12 hour roster.
Doing the maths anyone working a 12 hour roster can only work 13.9 shifts a month.
A 24 hour roster based on the current UK CG FTL works out at 8.5 shifts a month.
In addition to that you have to consider duty travel, HUET training and the other courses/refresher training etc.. you can't do while on shift. All of which must be logged as duty time. So naturally the number of shifts you can do falls.
From the DFT: -
Periods spent working overtime and on standby duty are captured under the definition of "working time" and should therefore be taken into account when calculating an individual's total annual working time.
To add to the employers problems it seems that every employee must take at least 20 days leave a year. That's LEAVE, not time off as a result of a rotating roster.
Roundwego,
I'm not sure that an employee can waiver the working time directive. Otherwise everyone would do it because from my understanding it's the worker NOT the company who pays the penalty for breaking it.
Anyway the fun continues,
RTS.
Have a look at the links below. It's heavy reading but should give you some answers.
http://www.dft.gov.uk/stellent/group...on_028337.hcsp
http://www.dft.gov.uk/stellent/group...on_032810.hcsp
Basically, you can not exceed 2000 duty hours a year so it has big implications for any one running on a 24 hour or 12 hour roster.
Doing the maths anyone working a 12 hour roster can only work 13.9 shifts a month.
A 24 hour roster based on the current UK CG FTL works out at 8.5 shifts a month.
In addition to that you have to consider duty travel, HUET training and the other courses/refresher training etc.. you can't do while on shift. All of which must be logged as duty time. So naturally the number of shifts you can do falls.
From the DFT: -
Periods spent working overtime and on standby duty are captured under the definition of "working time" and should therefore be taken into account when calculating an individual's total annual working time.
To add to the employers problems it seems that every employee must take at least 20 days leave a year. That's LEAVE, not time off as a result of a rotating roster.
Roundwego,
I'm not sure that an employee can waiver the working time directive. Otherwise everyone would do it because from my understanding it's the worker NOT the company who pays the penalty for breaking it.
Anyway the fun continues,
RTS.
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Roundwego,
As I read the rules, we are classed as mobile airworkers both SAR and commercial type flying. As such we cannot opt out. Therefore, I doubt your friend Mr Payne will be able to do as you suggest.
Happiness is an IFR hover!
As I read the rules, we are classed as mobile airworkers both SAR and commercial type flying. As such we cannot opt out. Therefore, I doubt your friend Mr Payne will be able to do as you suggest.
Happiness is an IFR hover!
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genesis848
genesis848, you seem to know quite a bit, slightly wrong on pay with all bonuses etc, actual figure closer to£45k for winch op. two weeks on rig, two weeks off, two weeks scatsta, two weeks off. with two weeks leave per year to be taken one week at a time added onto time off, thus giving two 3 week periods per annum. the shifts on the rig will be 12 weeks per year and 12-13 weeks per year at scatsta.....25 weeks per year on shift x 12hr shifts x 7days= 2100 hours duty time per year....if this is a problem(over EU wtd 2000hrs) it is easily solved by classing some of 12 hr shift as standby time where only half is counted towards total duty time ie 10 hrs duty 2 hrs stby(counted as 1 hour) = 1925....bargain!
Last edited by angelonawire; 30th Jan 2005 at 17:52.
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by classing some of 12 hr shift as standby time where only half is counted towards total duty time ie 10 hrs duty 2 hrs stby(counted as 1 hour) = 1925....bargain!
Not quite as cut and dried as that I'm afraid. I believe that the definition of 'Duty Time' has still not been clearly defined and is being discussed/argued about by the legal boys at this moment.
As I understand it the argument is very basically as follows;
By being on standby at the request of the employer the employee is deemed to be working for the employer, which, for the purposes of the Working Time Directive requires the duty time to be counted in full.
I don't know if any ruling has been declared yet, but, as the Danish have just adopted the Working Time Directive perhaps one of our colleagues in Denmark could comment?
Personally, I hope that the argument goes in our favour, i.e. standby duty hours to count in full. My reasons? Simple, the requirement for more pilots and engineers will result in more of them being employed.
Chopperman
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angelonawire,
Nice try, but I'm sorry to say you haven't a clue what you're talking about.
Standby period is spent is classed as time spent away from the base or in SAR from a state of immediate readiness in suitable accommodation etc. As Jigsaw is a 15 minute response time throughout the 12 hour period you can't be on standby during that period. What you have just suggested is basically cooking the books which not only lands you in trouble but also the company you work for. The CAA would take a very dim view of that. Fiddling duty hours is a well known scam and is checked for on unit audits.
You also haven't taken into account courses and checks away from the unit such as HUET, medical courses and duty travel or were you going to class that as leave??
Nice try, but I'm sorry to say you haven't a clue what you're talking about.
Standby period is spent is classed as time spent away from the base or in SAR from a state of immediate readiness in suitable accommodation etc. As Jigsaw is a 15 minute response time throughout the 12 hour period you can't be on standby during that period. What you have just suggested is basically cooking the books which not only lands you in trouble but also the company you work for. The CAA would take a very dim view of that. Fiddling duty hours is a well known scam and is checked for on unit audits.
You also haven't taken into account courses and checks away from the unit such as HUET, medical courses and duty travel or were you going to class that as leave??
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The EU directive is complicated but at the moment any pilot/crewman who works offshore has to claim 14hrs duty per day offshore. This is a CAA FTL mandatory requirement. You can do 9hrs flying duty within this 14hr period.
The EU also states that you have to have a minimum of 28 days leave a year. There are big discussions at the moment between offshore unions and the oil companies as to how leave is defined. The oil companies saying that the 13 days you have off between 15 day cycles can be "accountable leave". This is nonsense so a fight is developing.
If Bond are only offering 2 weeks leave you are being short changed. The industry standard is 42 days which includes public holidays and weekends within the period of leave taken.
332M
The EU also states that you have to have a minimum of 28 days leave a year. There are big discussions at the moment between offshore unions and the oil companies as to how leave is defined. The oil companies saying that the 13 days you have off between 15 day cycles can be "accountable leave". This is nonsense so a fight is developing.
If Bond are only offering 2 weeks leave you are being short changed. The industry standard is 42 days which includes public holidays and weekends within the period of leave taken.
332M
332mistress - Complicated is the right word! My understanding of the working time directive view on leave, is that a weeks leave should entitle the worker to one week away from work. Thus a weeks leave for a 5 day/week worker would equate to 5 days while a 3 day/week worker would equate to 3 days leave. The minimum requirement of the directive is 4 weeks leave per year so your 'standard 5 day a week office worker' requires a minimum of 20 days leave per year.
If you work on the basis that someone on an equal time on/off roster works a 3 1/2 day week, this would equate to only 14 days leave per year. However, and it is a big however, an offshore equal time on/off roster is not in reality equal time on/off, due to the change over flights, positioning etc. Additionally, I do not believe any major operator offers the minimum leave required by the directive.
Balancing this, is the fact that a two weeks on/two weeks off roster with two weeks leave is in fact a damned good deal when you look at it and compare with other rosters.
I realise I have sat happily on the fence and argued both sides of the discussion but then as you said, it is complicated!!
Cheers
TeeS
If you work on the basis that someone on an equal time on/off roster works a 3 1/2 day week, this would equate to only 14 days leave per year. However, and it is a big however, an offshore equal time on/off roster is not in reality equal time on/off, due to the change over flights, positioning etc. Additionally, I do not believe any major operator offers the minimum leave required by the directive.
Balancing this, is the fact that a two weeks on/two weeks off roster with two weeks leave is in fact a damned good deal when you look at it and compare with other rosters.
I realise I have sat happily on the fence and argued both sides of the discussion but then as you said, it is complicated!!
Cheers
TeeS
TeeS
Your quote below perhaps shows you have never done this type of roster, or are management!!
"Balancing this, is the fact that a two weeks on/two weeks off roster with two weeks leave is in fact a damned good deal when you look at it and compare with other rosters."
It is in fact a very poor deal compared with the onshore rosters I have worked in the N Sea. On average you are away from home 75% more than an on shore based N Sea Pilot. Your social life is very restricted as your life is totally controlled by the cyclical nature of the roster. No asking for specific days off for family reasons - if you are offshore then tough. Either Xmas or New Year offshore. You have to keep your family relationship going over the phone.
Any regular weekly activity is impossible due to you being away for 15 days at a time. You can not plan holidays starting within 2 days of your due date on shore because often you can not return onshore on time due to the weather being out of limits.
The accommodation is usually poor with the sharing of toilets etc common. Rig life is controlled by legions of rules which include no sunbathing on the helideck!! Although it has been tried but you don’t get much of a tan when wearing overalls, hard hat, safety specs and gloves.
If this roster is so good why are there very few volunteers to do it within my company? Most who do it have very personnel reasons for doing it which out way the very large downside, though even that is not a strong enough reason for some who have left recently for the benefits of an on shore roster.
I think those who have signed up for Jigsaw may be in for a shock. Working regularly on the same rig allows you some stability but constantly changing locations between rig/Scatsta/Aberdeen will not.
The way some companies interpret the CAA Flight Duty scheme may also mean that after you stint at Aberdeen you may only have 3 days off before going away for 15 days.
My wife has suffered me being based both on and offshore and she certainly prefers me being based onshore but is willing to sacrifice a large part of family life for our own specific reasons. I will be interested to see how many original Jigsaw crews are still in post after a couple of years.
Good luck to those on Jigsaw
HF
(who wasn’t headhunted
)
Your quote below perhaps shows you have never done this type of roster, or are management!!
"Balancing this, is the fact that a two weeks on/two weeks off roster with two weeks leave is in fact a damned good deal when you look at it and compare with other rosters."
It is in fact a very poor deal compared with the onshore rosters I have worked in the N Sea. On average you are away from home 75% more than an on shore based N Sea Pilot. Your social life is very restricted as your life is totally controlled by the cyclical nature of the roster. No asking for specific days off for family reasons - if you are offshore then tough. Either Xmas or New Year offshore. You have to keep your family relationship going over the phone.
Any regular weekly activity is impossible due to you being away for 15 days at a time. You can not plan holidays starting within 2 days of your due date on shore because often you can not return onshore on time due to the weather being out of limits.
The accommodation is usually poor with the sharing of toilets etc common. Rig life is controlled by legions of rules which include no sunbathing on the helideck!! Although it has been tried but you don’t get much of a tan when wearing overalls, hard hat, safety specs and gloves.
If this roster is so good why are there very few volunteers to do it within my company? Most who do it have very personnel reasons for doing it which out way the very large downside, though even that is not a strong enough reason for some who have left recently for the benefits of an on shore roster.
I think those who have signed up for Jigsaw may be in for a shock. Working regularly on the same rig allows you some stability but constantly changing locations between rig/Scatsta/Aberdeen will not.
The way some companies interpret the CAA Flight Duty scheme may also mean that after you stint at Aberdeen you may only have 3 days off before going away for 15 days.
My wife has suffered me being based both on and offshore and she certainly prefers me being based onshore but is willing to sacrifice a large part of family life for our own specific reasons. I will be interested to see how many original Jigsaw crews are still in post after a couple of years.
Good luck to those on Jigsaw
HF
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The standard touring roster with CHC Australia is 2 weeks on, two off, but you still get your entitled 6 weeks annual leave. (Standard annual leave in Oz is 4 weeks, if you do shift work, as our roster is classed as, you get 6 weeks) You earn your two weeks off as you've just spent two weeks away in some crappy location, (usually) so it has nothing to do with your annual leave entitlement.
Question for you North Sea chaps..what or were is "SCATSA" I'm assuming it's the Shetlands?
Also, if you do two weeks on in Aberdeen, what are you actually doing there? There's no Jigsaw SAR aircraft based there is there? If not what are the winchops doing, working in head office photocopying???
Question for you North Sea chaps..what or were is "SCATSA" I'm assuming it's the Shetlands?
Also, if you do two weeks on in Aberdeen, what are you actually doing there? There's no Jigsaw SAR aircraft based there is there? If not what are the winchops doing, working in head office photocopying???
Nigerian In Law
Hummingfrog,
No offence, but you appear to have forgotten the main factor, which is CHOICE.
Yes, Xmas and New Year etc away is a bad routine, (doesn't happen every year) but some people actually exist very well on rosters like that.
As Mountainman would testify (he decided he'd had enough of it years ago), there are some who have lives and relationships (and are ex North Sea with it's "structured" life), who relish the amount of time off a roster like that can give you.
So please, let's not generalise
Have you been anywhere apart from the North Sea ? As I saId, no offence.
Cheers,
NEO.
No offence, but you appear to have forgotten the main factor, which is CHOICE.
Yes, Xmas and New Year etc away is a bad routine, (doesn't happen every year) but some people actually exist very well on rosters like that.
As Mountainman would testify (he decided he'd had enough of it years ago), there are some who have lives and relationships (and are ex North Sea with it's "structured" life), who relish the amount of time off a roster like that can give you.
So please, let's not generalise
Have you been anywhere apart from the North Sea ? As I saId, no offence.
Cheers,
NEO.
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Also, if you do two weeks on in Aberdeen, what are you actually doing there? There's no Jigsaw SAR aircraft based there is there? If not what are the winchops doing, working in head office photocopying???
Probably yes they will. They will be washing aircraft, acting as ground staff and god knows what else. It's the new, caring sharing Bond - no job is too small for a winchop! ;-)
By the way if you finish washing the aircraft early can you do my car?
Probably yes they will. They will be washing aircraft, acting as ground staff and god knows what else. It's the new, caring sharing Bond - no job is too small for a winchop! ;-)
By the way if you finish washing the aircraft early can you do my car?
Winchop; your guess was right, Scatsta is in the Shetland Islands. It's the closest land base for the more northen fields.
Hi Hummingfrog -
I worked the offshore rosters on both the Piper/Claymore and Forties for a fair period. At the time it was Week on/week off which really meant 8 on/6 off by the time you had done your travelling. Two weeks on/off would have been far better for me but was not an option. While based onshore I was bounced between Strubby, Humberside, Beccles, Blackpool and Bournmouth so there was never anything more stable about homelife!
Without doubt the best roster I ever worked was Sumburgh (in the Peter Boor days - Top bloke! Where is he now?) 5 on, 2 off, 5 on, 9 off. Still cracked 900 hrs flying less than half the year!
The option to have 2 blocks of three weeks off would cost me 42 days leave under my current scheme (we only get 36 days/year) and you get two weeks off every month, it sound good to me!!
And no, I am just a line pilot so no hidden agenda.
Cheers
TeeS
I worked the offshore rosters on both the Piper/Claymore and Forties for a fair period. At the time it was Week on/week off which really meant 8 on/6 off by the time you had done your travelling. Two weeks on/off would have been far better for me but was not an option. While based onshore I was bounced between Strubby, Humberside, Beccles, Blackpool and Bournmouth so there was never anything more stable about homelife!
Without doubt the best roster I ever worked was Sumburgh (in the Peter Boor days - Top bloke! Where is he now?) 5 on, 2 off, 5 on, 9 off. Still cracked 900 hrs flying less than half the year!
The option to have 2 blocks of three weeks off would cost me 42 days leave under my current scheme (we only get 36 days/year) and you get two weeks off every month, it sound good to me!!
And no, I am just a line pilot so no hidden agenda.
Cheers
TeeS
Nigerian Expat.
I agree it is all about choice. I chose to be offshore for my own specific reasons. I was trying to describe that the Bond deal with only 2 weeks leave is a very poor deal compared to the industry standard of 42 days leave
The time off is not the main reason most of us work offshore. We have had 2 pilots leave recently because the demands of family life outweighed the benefits of working offshore.
I admit I have only worked N Sea (Puma/Dauphin) in my civil life but have worked many odd rosters in my RAF days in N Ireland and the Falklands. If I lived near Aberdeen I would not work offshore - it seems idyllic having 13 days off a month but you do pay for them and they soon get used up as you complete all those tasks which you would have done after a normal flying day onshore. Remember an onshore based Puma pilot will get 9-10 days off a month!
TeeS
Unless you are very very old
I must know you as we have worked the same platforms and the same rosters with Bond. You must have been unlucky to have been bounced around the Southern bases as most of us had a reasonable stable roster based on Frigg/Tharos/Iolair 40s - ah the joys of single pilot must have a nostalgia break.
OK back to earth now.
I agree It is all about choice. All I can say is that if the Bond roster of Rig/Scatsta/Abn with 2 weeks leave a year is true then it may suit some people and they have to make their own choices.
HF
I agree it is all about choice. I chose to be offshore for my own specific reasons. I was trying to describe that the Bond deal with only 2 weeks leave is a very poor deal compared to the industry standard of 42 days leave
The time off is not the main reason most of us work offshore. We have had 2 pilots leave recently because the demands of family life outweighed the benefits of working offshore.
I admit I have only worked N Sea (Puma/Dauphin) in my civil life but have worked many odd rosters in my RAF days in N Ireland and the Falklands. If I lived near Aberdeen I would not work offshore - it seems idyllic having 13 days off a month but you do pay for them and they soon get used up as you complete all those tasks which you would have done after a normal flying day onshore. Remember an onshore based Puma pilot will get 9-10 days off a month!
TeeS
Unless you are very very old
I must know you as we have worked the same platforms and the same rosters with Bond. You must have been unlucky to have been bounced around the Southern bases as most of us had a reasonable stable roster based on Frigg/Tharos/Iolair 40s - ah the joys of single pilot must have a nostalgia break. OK back to earth now.
I agree It is all about choice. All I can say is that if the Bond roster of Rig/Scatsta/Abn with 2 weeks leave a year is true then it may suit some people and they have to make their own choices.
HF
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Having spoken to 2 Oracles Tim Wilson CAA and David Shepherd DFT in our part of aviation industry (mobile airworkers) we are not allowed to opt out.
Happy hovering!!
Happy hovering!!