North Sea Jigsaw
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Nightwatchman..
Why do you hate Bond so much? When did you work there, we might have worked together. You can't be so against them and not have worked for them surely??
And NO I'm not suggesting air paramedics have all the airmanship compared to experienced winchmen, stop twisting my words. I said I would rather winch down an air paramedic with SOME airmanship than a firefighter with absolutely none. When I worked for Bond the air paramedics did all our medical courses and were nothing but highly skilled and professional along with the paramedics I work with here currently in Oz who ARE the winchmen on our SAR helos. To carry on about them as 'Nurse Gladys making tea' is uninformed and insulting. What decade do you think we are in anyway?
I hope we can wait and see what happens with recruiting first before we all damn the company and knock them for people they've hired or didn't hire before they've actually done it!!
Why do you hate Bond so much? When did you work there, we might have worked together. You can't be so against them and not have worked for them surely??
And NO I'm not suggesting air paramedics have all the airmanship compared to experienced winchmen, stop twisting my words. I said I would rather winch down an air paramedic with SOME airmanship than a firefighter with absolutely none. When I worked for Bond the air paramedics did all our medical courses and were nothing but highly skilled and professional along with the paramedics I work with here currently in Oz who ARE the winchmen on our SAR helos. To carry on about them as 'Nurse Gladys making tea' is uninformed and insulting. What decade do you think we are in anyway?
I hope we can wait and see what happens with recruiting first before we all damn the company and knock them for people they've hired or didn't hire before they've actually done it!!
Join Date: May 2004
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So, the chickens are coming home to roost!
The Jigsaw Trial used fully trained SAR crews and worked. Why do Air BP, sorry Bond, think that they can get away with inexperienced crews?
The real problem is that Bond probably don't have a clue about SAR, otherwise they would snap up all the experience they could get hold of.
Runnin In
The Jigsaw Trial used fully trained SAR crews and worked. Why do Air BP, sorry Bond, think that they can get away with inexperienced crews?
The real problem is that Bond probably don't have a clue about SAR, otherwise they would snap up all the experience they could get hold of.
Runnin In
Nigerian In Law
Never been SAR crew, military, civilian or any other way. But I've seen them work and as an outsider I reckon they may qualify as SAR after training but it takes more than training to be good at it. The essential missing element is experience, and Bond or any other operator can't buy that wherever they recruit. Fact is, like it or not, Bristow have the monopoly on that in the civilian world.
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So no reply to Mountainman's question!
But there again should be expect fireman and checkout girls to reply on pprune?
winchop,
You need winchmen who are advanced first aid trained, but they must be winchmen first and foremost.
running in
But there again should be expect fireman and checkout girls to reply on pprune?
winchop,
You need winchmen who are advanced first aid trained, but they must be winchmen first and foremost.
running in
Running In - you are absolutely correct, I don't think many of the wanabee winchmen realise what a physical and dangerous job it is - the only way to minimise the danger is to be fit and well trained. If you have ever tried to place a strop on a person in the water whilst wearing a rubber suit and being battered by waves and downwash you will know what I mean.
It's the whole point of the 'Rescue' in Search and Rescue because you have to extract the casualty from peril before you can weave your paramedic magic on them.
Nightwatchman - the MCA will have zero input - the UK SAR cover is already in place and the Jigsaw stuff is just an add-on for the rig areas. As for the CAA, I suspect their knowledge of SARops is less than encylopaedic and other than checking that the helos are being operated within the rules, won't give a t*ss who is dangling on the wire.
Bond wouldn't give a job to a very experienced SAR QHI, partly because he asked awkward questions about de-icing the helo during the winter and keeping it pointed into wind on the heli-deck. Other questions regarding rear-crew equipment were equally ignored so if the Operators haven't actually thought through the detail of the job then who will?
It's the whole point of the 'Rescue' in Search and Rescue because you have to extract the casualty from peril before you can weave your paramedic magic on them.
Nightwatchman - the MCA will have zero input - the UK SAR cover is already in place and the Jigsaw stuff is just an add-on for the rig areas. As for the CAA, I suspect their knowledge of SARops is less than encylopaedic and other than checking that the helos are being operated within the rules, won't give a t*ss who is dangling on the wire.
Bond wouldn't give a job to a very experienced SAR QHI, partly because he asked awkward questions about de-icing the helo during the winter and keeping it pointed into wind on the heli-deck. Other questions regarding rear-crew equipment were equally ignored so if the Operators haven't actually thought through the detail of the job then who will?
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Running in..
100% percent agree with you, no argument from me on that...
As for the question about interviews. I just got a reply from Bond saying interviews for rearcrew were starting by the end of October and they were hoping to have all they required and signed up by Christmas. Just telling you all what I was told...
Can anyone tell me what level of medical training a civilian winchman can get in the UK? When I worked for Bond previously, we did a medical course with the Scottish Ambulance Service, but it was really only advanced first aid with defibs etc. What level are the Bristows SAR boys at for example?
regards to all..winchop
100% percent agree with you, no argument from me on that...
As for the question about interviews. I just got a reply from Bond saying interviews for rearcrew were starting by the end of October and they were hoping to have all they required and signed up by Christmas. Just telling you all what I was told...
Can anyone tell me what level of medical training a civilian winchman can get in the UK? When I worked for Bond previously, we did a medical course with the Scottish Ambulance Service, but it was really only advanced first aid with defibs etc. What level are the Bristows SAR boys at for example?
regards to all..winchop
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Crab,
How wrong you are. The MCA – Maritime Coastguard Agency now have an enormous input towards the approval of a safety regime offshore. Aberdeen MRCC regularly hold meetings with the oil companies to agree and discuss safety and SAR procedures. They run courses on it for oil company staff. The image of the MCA being a grey haired bearded man, smoking a pipe staring out to sea through a telescope is long gone. The MCA has changed, it encompasses several government agencies now and are now responsible for things like pollution, safety offshore, seaworthiness of ships etc.. as well as maritime SAR. You are also forgetting that for this to work an appropriate Command and Control structure needs to be put in place to co-ordinate such SAR assets. In the Netherlands the Dutch Coastguard provide that structure for the L2 out there on behalf of the oil companies. Do you really think that if the UK Coastguard turned round and said ‘we think jigsaw is a bad idea’ that nobody would listen? Of course they’ll have an input!
With regard to the CAA. It is they who grant the dispensations which allow a civilian aircraft to perform SAR Ops. These dispensations have been approved after many years of working with one operator. They are not granted to just anyone and you can’t get them by applying through your local post office. The CAA regularly audit the SAR units to ensure that a proper safety and training regime is in place and that the aircrew are performing the task correctly and within the agreed operational procedures. At least one of their inspectors is an ex military SAR driver so their knowledge on SAR is probably more than you're giving them credit for. The CAA are ultimately answerable to the government if things go badly wrong with any operator that they have given dispensations too. Oh, I think they will give a t*ss! Especially in this blame culture we all live in now.
Winchop,
I don’t hate Bond. I am just slightly alarmed about what I hear about their recruiting. I find it strange that they appear to be ignoring applications from seasoned SAR Commanders from the Coastguard and, from what Crab is saying, the military. In fact, I have heard that the only Coastguard pilot to be interviewed by them was a co-pilot! Why didn’t they interview any of the Commanders that applied (and there were a few)? None of that seems to concur with your previous argument that they would only hire the most experienced crew available and it was you that said that “when I'm sitting in the back fat dumb and happy, I want a good SAR driver up front.” Does this not worry you? If anything I’m fighting your corner on this one!
Oh, and the Nurse Gladys remark wasn’t made by me so you’ll need to redirect your anger elsewhere on that one! No offense taken though… in case you were wondering!
Night Watchman
How wrong you are. The MCA – Maritime Coastguard Agency now have an enormous input towards the approval of a safety regime offshore. Aberdeen MRCC regularly hold meetings with the oil companies to agree and discuss safety and SAR procedures. They run courses on it for oil company staff. The image of the MCA being a grey haired bearded man, smoking a pipe staring out to sea through a telescope is long gone. The MCA has changed, it encompasses several government agencies now and are now responsible for things like pollution, safety offshore, seaworthiness of ships etc.. as well as maritime SAR. You are also forgetting that for this to work an appropriate Command and Control structure needs to be put in place to co-ordinate such SAR assets. In the Netherlands the Dutch Coastguard provide that structure for the L2 out there on behalf of the oil companies. Do you really think that if the UK Coastguard turned round and said ‘we think jigsaw is a bad idea’ that nobody would listen? Of course they’ll have an input!
With regard to the CAA. It is they who grant the dispensations which allow a civilian aircraft to perform SAR Ops. These dispensations have been approved after many years of working with one operator. They are not granted to just anyone and you can’t get them by applying through your local post office. The CAA regularly audit the SAR units to ensure that a proper safety and training regime is in place and that the aircrew are performing the task correctly and within the agreed operational procedures. At least one of their inspectors is an ex military SAR driver so their knowledge on SAR is probably more than you're giving them credit for. The CAA are ultimately answerable to the government if things go badly wrong with any operator that they have given dispensations too. Oh, I think they will give a t*ss! Especially in this blame culture we all live in now.
Winchop,
I don’t hate Bond. I am just slightly alarmed about what I hear about their recruiting. I find it strange that they appear to be ignoring applications from seasoned SAR Commanders from the Coastguard and, from what Crab is saying, the military. In fact, I have heard that the only Coastguard pilot to be interviewed by them was a co-pilot! Why didn’t they interview any of the Commanders that applied (and there were a few)? None of that seems to concur with your previous argument that they would only hire the most experienced crew available and it was you that said that “when I'm sitting in the back fat dumb and happy, I want a good SAR driver up front.” Does this not worry you? If anything I’m fighting your corner on this one!
Oh, and the Nurse Gladys remark wasn’t made by me so you’ll need to redirect your anger elsewhere on that one! No offense taken though… in case you were wondering!
Night Watchman
Last edited by Night Watchman; 16th Oct 2004 at 14:59.
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Nightwatchman
If they aren't hiring the experienced drivers from the Coastguard and elsewhere that HAVE applied, then you're right, it is very alarming! I'm discovering more and more that maybe I'm being a bit too optimistic and naive to think they will hire the SAR commanders you talk of.
If I do get an interview as rearcrew, then at the top of my list of questions will be, 'who are the pilots you've hired to fly me around and what are their backgrounds?' (Along with, how much are you paying?)
To achieve my desire to be 'fat, dumb and happy' in the back of the cab, I need to know the guys (or girls) up the front are the right people thats for sure!
winchop
If they aren't hiring the experienced drivers from the Coastguard and elsewhere that HAVE applied, then you're right, it is very alarming! I'm discovering more and more that maybe I'm being a bit too optimistic and naive to think they will hire the SAR commanders you talk of.
If I do get an interview as rearcrew, then at the top of my list of questions will be, 'who are the pilots you've hired to fly me around and what are their backgrounds?' (Along with, how much are you paying?)
To achieve my desire to be 'fat, dumb and happy' in the back of the cab, I need to know the guys (or girls) up the front are the right people thats for sure!
winchop
Nightwatchman - I still don't think either agency has any say on who is hired to be a winchman, that is up to Bond and BP, providing they make the right noises about training then who will prevent ex-firemen and ex-paramedics from acting as Jigsaw SAR winchmen.
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Does anyone know if BALPA have been consulted over the new proposals for Jigsaw? After all it is their memebers who will be rescued when a ditching occurs, if the SAR crews are not experienced will they be successful?
Also are Bond recruiting inexperienced crews (both front and back) to save money and undercut the present pay rates, especially for crewmen?
running in
Also are Bond recruiting inexperienced crews (both front and back) to save money and undercut the present pay rates, especially for crewmen?
running in
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Just a slightly different angle on this thread regarding SAR commanders experience, as Bond proved in the Emerald isles, they did not know what SAR stood for, or what was involved, only some very experianced crews ( already running the show before Bond took over)managed to keep the show going.
Why should you hire experianced people who will keep reminding you,that you are not doing the job properly?, after all, if the commander returns from failing to do a rescue , quoting " the job was too difficult " who will question his decision? life will carry on, and they will keep the contract.
Its a pity to see they will do it all again, i just hope no one gets hurt.
Why should you hire experianced people who will keep reminding you,that you are not doing the job properly?, after all, if the commander returns from failing to do a rescue , quoting " the job was too difficult " who will question his decision? life will carry on, and they will keep the contract.
Its a pity to see they will do it all again, i just hope no one gets hurt.
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NLTTGITWOAGS, that's an interesting point you've made.
If you look through the earlier postings on this thread, you'll see what I think of Bond's legacy in Ireland.
If an outsider were to read this thread, they would probably think that some of us are a bit anti Bond but personally I wish them well.
My real problem is with BP.
I have seen what the major Oil Companies have done to the oil and gas side of the North Sea helicopter industry and it scares me to think that the same thing might happen in SAR.
There comes a point when the cost cannot be driven down any lower. All that happens is corners are cut and things go wrong.
Do the offshore workers really want to be flown to work in an aircraft that was chosen because it was operated by the cheapest company?.........I don't think so.
I don't think that either the CAA or the MCA will ultimately stand in Bond's way, because Bond will (given time) be able to demonstrate that they have approved equipment and "qualified" crews. I think Bond's ultimate hurdle will be to prove to the offshore workforce and more importantly the HSE that they can meet the performance standard ie recover 21 survivors from the water in less than 30 minutes, and that is where the paramedics or any inexperienced crewmen will suffer.
The HSE will be watching things very closely and the BP Safety Rep's are a pretty pro-active bunch, and they do read Pprune, so if I was running the show it's them I'd be worried about.
Sadly for the Bond lads they don't even know what they don't know.
As for my "Gladys Emmanuel" comment earlier, I apologise if it offended anybody. I'm afraid the paramedics have become political footballs, and if that doesn't sum up this fiasco, what does?
If you look through the earlier postings on this thread, you'll see what I think of Bond's legacy in Ireland.
If an outsider were to read this thread, they would probably think that some of us are a bit anti Bond but personally I wish them well.
My real problem is with BP.
I have seen what the major Oil Companies have done to the oil and gas side of the North Sea helicopter industry and it scares me to think that the same thing might happen in SAR.
There comes a point when the cost cannot be driven down any lower. All that happens is corners are cut and things go wrong.
Do the offshore workers really want to be flown to work in an aircraft that was chosen because it was operated by the cheapest company?.........I don't think so.
I don't think that either the CAA or the MCA will ultimately stand in Bond's way, because Bond will (given time) be able to demonstrate that they have approved equipment and "qualified" crews. I think Bond's ultimate hurdle will be to prove to the offshore workforce and more importantly the HSE that they can meet the performance standard ie recover 21 survivors from the water in less than 30 minutes, and that is where the paramedics or any inexperienced crewmen will suffer.
The HSE will be watching things very closely and the BP Safety Rep's are a pretty pro-active bunch, and they do read Pprune, so if I was running the show it's them I'd be worried about.
Sadly for the Bond lads they don't even know what they don't know.
As for my "Gladys Emmanuel" comment earlier, I apologise if it offended anybody. I'm afraid the paramedics have become political footballs, and if that doesn't sum up this fiasco, what does?
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Well, look at the aircraft that will be used for the Jigsaw contract. See who is the Chief Training Captain for Bond on that type. Ask what experience he has of training and SAR. Does it have any relevance? Is this 'new Bond's' overall level of experience and expertise? I don't live or work in UK so I have no idea, but maybe there are others out there who do.
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The last time a lot of questions were asked on this forum about Jigsaw, Scotia Q strongly defended Bond and sounded as if he was involved in the project with Bond.
Scotia Q, do you have anything to say about the points raised this time around? Could you enlighten us, as we are in the dark and could be barking up the wrong tree.
running in
Scotia Q, do you have anything to say about the points raised this time around? Could you enlighten us, as we are in the dark and could be barking up the wrong tree.
running in
That's Life!!
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Have they thought about a return to the mainland with a serious casualty when the weather is cr@p?
The other operators have Lo-Viz approaches for the airfields they operate from; this is regularly practiced.
Where will Air BP be able to do this, or are long transits to an airfield out of the 'Haar' going to be acceptable, bearing in mind ‘the longer the transit, the greater the risk to the casualty’?
The other operators have Lo-Viz approaches for the airfields they operate from; this is regularly practiced.
Where will Air BP be able to do this, or are long transits to an airfield out of the 'Haar' going to be acceptable, bearing in mind ‘the longer the transit, the greater the risk to the casualty’?
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I think what a lot of people are assuming is that Jigsaw will be the same SAR as provided by the RAF/RN/HMCG.
It won't. It will be a much reduced version from what I hear. The commanders will be line pilots given a few hrs winching practise, the co-pilots will be even less experienced.
The crews will only be qualified to winch over the water and onto simple decks, no cliff/mountain exp required.
They will be there to remove casualties from danger and land them on a suitable rig for treatment.
Low viz approaches to airfields will not be required.
The main danger will be boredom but to relieve that I hear pilots will be required to fly the line every 3rd offshore rotation to satisfy the accountants as their hours will be low.
I for one will not be applying. I don't want to be on the end of the wire in poor conditions at night with an inexperienced SAR pilot at the controls
It won't. It will be a much reduced version from what I hear. The commanders will be line pilots given a few hrs winching practise, the co-pilots will be even less experienced.
The crews will only be qualified to winch over the water and onto simple decks, no cliff/mountain exp required.
They will be there to remove casualties from danger and land them on a suitable rig for treatment.
Low viz approaches to airfields will not be required.
The main danger will be boredom but to relieve that I hear pilots will be required to fly the line every 3rd offshore rotation to satisfy the accountants as their hours will be low.
I for one will not be applying. I don't want to be on the end of the wire in poor conditions at night with an inexperienced SAR pilot at the controls
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Let's remind ourselves what Jigsaw is all about - as I see it that is!
As I write, each and every offshore installation - apart from FPSO's - have a Standby Vessel in the vicininty to rescue the crew if there should be a major accident (Piper Alpha) or a man overboard etc.
These are on station 24/7 and are a very expensive piece of kit. What BP want to do is to replace many of these vessels with 2-4 offshore/onshore based helicopters, thereby saving lots and lots of oily money.
The main task of these aircraft will be to pick up survivors in the water and take them to the nearest oil rig/platform where they can get medical treatment if required before being transfered to the beach in slow time. If an urgent medivac to the beach is required it might be that the powers that be decide not to release the Jigsaw aircraft and use the current SAR resource - Bristow/RAF.
Therefore there might not be a requirement for Jigsaw crews to be all singing, all dancing SAR qualified - especially in the early stages.
Scoop 'em up and drop 'em off might be the order of the day
As I write, each and every offshore installation - apart from FPSO's - have a Standby Vessel in the vicininty to rescue the crew if there should be a major accident (Piper Alpha) or a man overboard etc.
These are on station 24/7 and are a very expensive piece of kit. What BP want to do is to replace many of these vessels with 2-4 offshore/onshore based helicopters, thereby saving lots and lots of oily money.
The main task of these aircraft will be to pick up survivors in the water and take them to the nearest oil rig/platform where they can get medical treatment if required before being transfered to the beach in slow time. If an urgent medivac to the beach is required it might be that the powers that be decide not to release the Jigsaw aircraft and use the current SAR resource - Bristow/RAF.
Therefore there might not be a requirement for Jigsaw crews to be all singing, all dancing SAR qualified - especially in the early stages.
Scoop 'em up and drop 'em off might be the order of the day