North Sea Jigsaw
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Woolf,
Don't get all wound up and defensive about Jigsaw, I'm not trying to decry it at all.
Well...I didn't say the project wasn't viable, I said...
because,
Now I freely admit to not knowing all the facts, which is why I asked...
because by asking such questions and, hopefully, getting some sensible answers, I, and perhaps others, will be able to form our own opinions as to the viability of the project.
Geddit?
Chopperman.
Don't get all wound up and defensive about Jigsaw, I'm not trying to decry it at all.
Maybe you should let other people worry over viability? Someone who is actually involved in the project and knows the facts e.g BP, Bond, CAA, HSE, UKOOA and the workers Unions?
I'd just like to pose a question
my concern is that the project is not totally viable
a question to those in the know
Geddit?
Chopperman.
I think that all professional helicopter pilots working in the N Sea welcome the addition of an offshore-based SAR helicopter. The sea states that we sometimes operate in would make rescue by a surface vessel very difficult even if they could find you.
A SAR helicopter has so many advantages over the present standby vessels that I do hope that it is expanded but somehow I doubt it will be as bp is loosing interest in the N Sea as reserves dwindle and the return on capital follows suite.
JIGSAW does have problems though; some are due to the settling in period and the lack of experience amongst the crews in operating an offshore-based a/c. These will disappear as experienced is gained. Others, however, are due to the unsuitability of the 332 as an offshore-based a/c. It is too top heavy and too susceptible to blade sail on start/shutdown. The last time Bond based a 332 offshore they had at least two offshore head changes due to blades assuming the vertical!!
The recent episode of it going ashore for wind (it didn't reach 55kts offshore) will diminish as experience is gained as well as it being sent out to float around looking for a deck to shut down on before the crew ran out of hours. It ended up in Sumburgh.
What I find amusing is Jigsaw's spin on it all.
"The Miller aircraft provided cover to the crew change flights in the recent 60 knot storms that saw many standby vessels unable to do so."
The Miller a/c was forced ashore so it provided cover as the SAR at Lossiemouth does
There were no 60kt winds our wind readout did not even gust to 60kts - in fact, it did not even gust to 55kts so we stayed offshore.
JIGSAW is a good idea it doesn't need the spin so Jigsaw needs to rein in his spin or it will become a laughing stock or even worse a believer in its own spin which is not a good thing to happen in SAR
HF
A SAR helicopter has so many advantages over the present standby vessels that I do hope that it is expanded but somehow I doubt it will be as bp is loosing interest in the N Sea as reserves dwindle and the return on capital follows suite.
JIGSAW does have problems though; some are due to the settling in period and the lack of experience amongst the crews in operating an offshore-based a/c. These will disappear as experienced is gained. Others, however, are due to the unsuitability of the 332 as an offshore-based a/c. It is too top heavy and too susceptible to blade sail on start/shutdown. The last time Bond based a 332 offshore they had at least two offshore head changes due to blades assuming the vertical!!
The recent episode of it going ashore for wind (it didn't reach 55kts offshore) will diminish as experience is gained as well as it being sent out to float around looking for a deck to shut down on before the crew ran out of hours. It ended up in Sumburgh.
What I find amusing is Jigsaw's spin on it all.
"The Miller aircraft provided cover to the crew change flights in the recent 60 knot storms that saw many standby vessels unable to do so."
The Miller a/c was forced ashore so it provided cover as the SAR at Lossiemouth does
There were no 60kt winds our wind readout did not even gust to 60kts - in fact, it did not even gust to 55kts so we stayed offshore.JIGSAW is a good idea it doesn't need the spin so Jigsaw needs to rein in his spin or it will become a laughing stock or even worse a believer in its own spin which is not a good thing to happen in SAR
HF
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HUMMINGFROG, you're probably right about the spin but i just can help mixing it up a little on the rumour network to see what the industry thinks. I must admit that it is good to see some excellent debate on JIGSAW although it is well mixed amongst a large amount of poorly informed comment - but it is a rumour network after all!
Thanks to everyone for all the advice about aircraft and helideck limits although my years of military SAR flying did prepare me for analysing the forecast and basing my decisions to comply with said limits. Unfortunatly the wind was actually a steady 58 knots which made helidecks open but unavailable for shutdown, hence the relocation and subsequent north sea platform tour.
Although its actually rather nice out here, i'm looking forward to my 3 weeks off skiing in Canada, then perhaps Hawaii again next - who knows with the money and time off im getting i could do pretty much anything!
Thanks to everyone for all the advice about aircraft and helideck limits although my years of military SAR flying did prepare me for analysing the forecast and basing my decisions to comply with said limits. Unfortunatly the wind was actually a steady 58 knots which made helidecks open but unavailable for shutdown, hence the relocation and subsequent north sea platform tour.
Although its actually rather nice out here, i'm looking forward to my 3 weeks off skiing in Canada, then perhaps Hawaii again next - who knows with the money and time off im getting i could do pretty much anything!
chopperman:
No not really 
No one is getting wound up and defensive! I am all for asking questions and having a good debate. Jigsaw has been controversial from the start and it is only natural that issues are raised in this forum. However there seems to be a general "guilty until proven innocent" attitude. If you are interested then why not ask a question to "Those in the know" instead of asking a question and already offering your take on it?
Sensible answers on a postcard!
because by asking such questions and, hopefully, getting some sensible answers, I, and perhaps others, will be able to form our own opinions as to the viability of the project.
Geddit?
Geddit?
No one is getting wound up and defensive! I am all for asking questions and having a good debate. Jigsaw has been controversial from the start and it is only natural that issues are raised in this forum. However there seems to be a general "guilty until proven innocent" attitude. If you are interested then why not ask a question to "Those in the know" instead of asking a question and already offering your take on it?
However, can someone tell me what standby cover the Miller has when the aircraft is deployed to Aberdeen?
Does one of the Brae standby vessels cover for it by any chance? 
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HF
With your insider knowledge of BP's future plans for North Sea production and exploration, I'm suprised you have to lower yourself to flying helicopters
I think you should let BP know before they build their new offices in Dyce - whoops they've already started. Perhaps it's all a tax dodge so Gordon doesn't get another 10%!
My CG sources tell me that they are out on a search at the moment for a missing trawlerman - the second time in as many days that BP have allowed their asset to be used for the good of all on, in and over the North Sea.
Good luck to the Jigsaw boys!
With your insider knowledge of BP's future plans for North Sea production and exploration, I'm suprised you have to lower yourself to flying helicopters
I think you should let BP know before they build their new offices in Dyce - whoops they've already started. Perhaps it's all a tax dodge so Gordon doesn't get another 10%!
My CG sources tell me that they are out on a search at the moment for a missing trawlerman - the second time in as many days that BP have allowed their asset to be used for the good of all on, in and over the North Sea.
Good luck to the Jigsaw boys!
Freeride
Having lived and worked on a bp platform for many years you would be surprised what inside knowledge I have picked up - I sat through all the bp presentations to the offshore work force and what you have now is a very scaled back effort compared to what it was going to be.
HF
Having lived and worked on a bp platform for many years you would be surprised what inside knowledge I have picked up
- I sat through all the bp presentations to the offshore work force and what you have now is a very scaled back effort compared to what it was going to be.HF
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So, How's it going now?
It's been a few months since the last post on this thread, the MoD have announced the demise of MilSAR and Jigsaw has had some time to settle in.
So, how's it going?
Has the a/c had the predicted problems operating offshore? Has the perceived lack of experience become a problem? Or have most of the issues been addressed?
Not contentious, just interested!!
So, how's it going?
Has the a/c had the predicted problems operating offshore? Has the perceived lack of experience become a problem? Or have most of the issues been addressed?
Not contentious, just interested!!
Project Jigsaw
the MoD have announced the demise of MilSAR
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A quick search on the old google turned up this:
"Helicopters Replace Boats at Rigs
The plan, called Project Jigsaw, would station four helicopters on separate platforms in the northern, central and southern sectors of the North Sea. Two more helicopters would be land based—one in Aberdeen and the other in East Anglia."
http://www.aviationtoday.com/cgi/rw/...rotorcraft.htm
dunno if this is what crud12001 was refering to, but i tried
Wooly
"Helicopters Replace Boats at Rigs
The plan, called Project Jigsaw, would station four helicopters on separate platforms in the northern, central and southern sectors of the North Sea. Two more helicopters would be land based—one in Aberdeen and the other in East Anglia."
http://www.aviationtoday.com/cgi/rw/...rotorcraft.htm
dunno if this is what crud12001 was refering to, but i tried
Wooly
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The whole project is a ridiculous cost saving exercise at the risk of lives, trying to take away standby/support ships and replace them with helicopters, my personal opinion is that we need both, not one or the other. The oil companies aren't particularly short of money, so they should be forced increase expenditure on safety around the rigs.
"Already SAR agency sources are beginning to question whether the Super Puma can handle the mission, given its known operational constraints on helidecks in severe weather."
"Already SAR agency sources are beginning to question whether the Super Puma can handle the mission, given its known operational constraints on helidecks in severe weather."
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Originally Posted by SAR Bloke
I'm not quite sure where you got that from. Don't disregard MilSAR completely. It may occur in a different form to that available at the moment, but it will exist.
You are quite right, SB, it will be a different form, and with a drastically smaller foot print than it has at present. So it may be there, but not a lot of it.
MilSAR will probably be only a couple of flights and used as a rest tour from SH. Most of the chat at the mo from experienced MilSAR crews are not about "If" but "When", and that also appplies to their discusssions on when to submit their CV's to prospective employers!!!
Still, we digress, and back to my previous post. How's it going?
Heard on the grapevine that a couple of pretty experienced RAFSAR pilots have just been recruited, and that the rearcrew are being medically trained by the RAF. Any flesh to add to the bones?
Last edited by No Vote Joe; 12th Jul 2006 at 18:47.
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So Ture
Originally Posted by L'aviateur
The whole project is a ridiculous cost saving exercise at the risk of lives,
Originally Posted by L'aviateur
"Already SAR agency sources are beginning to question whether the Super Puma can handle the mission, given its known operational constraints on helidecks in severe weather."
Not sure about the boats but I did hear Rescue Bond 1 return to Aberdeen today dropping off a casualty at the Airport. Looks like they have been operating for a while now.
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Bond One/Two have been working for ages now...jolly good job they do too!! I note that CHC now have an AS365 here in Aberdeen again after the long farewell to the dauphin for the transit routes in the central north sea after the Bond a/c did the routes for a while.
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atco
I think the quote "after the Bond a/c did the routes for a while" is not quite accurate. The reason the 365N is back in town is that the Jigsaw aircraft was so unreliable in supporting bp that they wanted the 365N back ASAP but no a/c was available until now and a Norwegian registered/CHC crewed 365N2 is being used as back up.
I also hear that the Jigsaw a/c spends a fair amount of time in Aberdeen due to weather etc.
332M
I think the quote "after the Bond a/c did the routes for a while" is not quite accurate. The reason the 365N is back in town is that the Jigsaw aircraft was so unreliable in supporting bp that they wanted the 365N back ASAP but no a/c was available until now and a Norwegian registered/CHC crewed 365N2 is being used as back up.
I also hear that the Jigsaw a/c spends a fair amount of time in Aberdeen due to weather etc.
332M
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Jigsaw, from my point of view
Sorry for the intrusion, not being a pilot, but I thought that some input from me was needed to relieve the pessamists of the Jigsaw Project from any doubt as to the integrity and stability of the project itself.
I work on one of the RSV's, as an ARRC crewmember. I have done operations with the helicopter a few times now, all of them have run like clockwork.
Last time we did exercises with the Miller SAR aircraft was a week or so ago, the conditions were not perfect, and the wind was gusting 30+ Kts, but the pilot was incredibly able and skilled as was the winch operator, an the actual winch man. We safely landed the Winchman (Alan I think his name was) 3 or for times, then completed hi-line exercises and stretcher transfers with the SAR Helo, all operations went very smoothly in seas exceeding 3.5 - 4 metres.
This to me tells me that even in more extreme weather, the SAR Helo's, ARRC's and the RSV's combined can offer medical and Evacuation cover second to none, each ARRC has the capacity to evac 80+ personnel (top end) from a platform, and each ARRC is better equipt than a NHS Ambulance ashore, and we have the facilities onboard to offer a high degree of Primary, and Secondary Medical Aid.
One thing I did have concerns with at first was the Lauching Systems for the ARRC's but after a year or so of modifications, and uprades, these seem to now be Ironed out.
I hope that we can publicly generate awareness for the work that we in the marine sector, and yourselves in the Aviation sector can be proud of, and I honestly believe that this is the way forward for offshore safety regimes.
For people involved in Jigsaw, I hope that we can build on our relationships and make this a diverse, rewarding and proactive Project.
I would like to finish this article for Mr B Walker, who wrote to the Numast saying "The whole project and the concept is a joke and I quote " If I ever had the misfortune of falling in the water, leave me to make my own way home," Well Mr Walker, I'm sure you would change your mind when you are actually in the water freezing your balls off, and we come along to rescue you, you will appriciate why we are actually serving here in the North Sea, and more to the point, I am sure your family will appriciate you going home safe, Rather than in a Wooden Jacket.
Please reply with your thoughts on this.
I work on one of the RSV's, as an ARRC crewmember. I have done operations with the helicopter a few times now, all of them have run like clockwork.
Last time we did exercises with the Miller SAR aircraft was a week or so ago, the conditions were not perfect, and the wind was gusting 30+ Kts, but the pilot was incredibly able and skilled as was the winch operator, an the actual winch man. We safely landed the Winchman (Alan I think his name was) 3 or for times, then completed hi-line exercises and stretcher transfers with the SAR Helo, all operations went very smoothly in seas exceeding 3.5 - 4 metres.
This to me tells me that even in more extreme weather, the SAR Helo's, ARRC's and the RSV's combined can offer medical and Evacuation cover second to none, each ARRC has the capacity to evac 80+ personnel (top end) from a platform, and each ARRC is better equipt than a NHS Ambulance ashore, and we have the facilities onboard to offer a high degree of Primary, and Secondary Medical Aid.
One thing I did have concerns with at first was the Lauching Systems for the ARRC's but after a year or so of modifications, and uprades, these seem to now be Ironed out.
I hope that we can publicly generate awareness for the work that we in the marine sector, and yourselves in the Aviation sector can be proud of, and I honestly believe that this is the way forward for offshore safety regimes.
For people involved in Jigsaw, I hope that we can build on our relationships and make this a diverse, rewarding and proactive Project.
I would like to finish this article for Mr B Walker, who wrote to the Numast saying "The whole project and the concept is a joke and I quote " If I ever had the misfortune of falling in the water, leave me to make my own way home," Well Mr Walker, I'm sure you would change your mind when you are actually in the water freezing your balls off, and we come along to rescue you, you will appriciate why we are actually serving here in the North Sea, and more to the point, I am sure your family will appriciate you going home safe, Rather than in a Wooden Jacket.
Please reply with your thoughts on this.