Colour Blindness (merged)

[PPRuNeUser0161]

Icebox, Palgia

You guys are certainly talking the talk. I'm liking what I hear. Yes I agree there probably is a point at which a colour defective becomes unsafe to pilot an aircraft. However I think the time has come to give the current testing methods and standards a complete review.

As I said before I failed both the plates and the Farnsworth. CASA have designed a "last chance lantern test" which can be sat at the Melbourne university of optometry. I sat this and passed. I had no idea I had passed until they told me as it seemed no different to the Farnsworth. The difference was of course that it only tested red and green as these ar the only colours having significance to an aircraft in flight.

I will try and find out where this test is at these days as it was around 5 years ago when I gave it a try. I'll get back but it may be a while. In the mean time you should seriously try and get hold of Pape. I guess the standard is not really cr@p just not relevent in its current form. <img src="cool.gif" border="0">

[icebox]

Just keeping the thread alive.

[icebox]

Just keeping the thread alive.

[Elliot Moose]

Well, here's the story in the great white north (and yes it does look white to me, and yes I can easily discern whether or not I'm eating yellow snow!). .When I first went for a medical (circa 1992) I ended up at one of those friendly old family type docs who also happened to do medicals. I of course flunked the Ishihara plates miserably. That said, I knew that I had more than adequate colour vision for the needs of a pilot as I had just spent the past two years studying human factors and ergonomics in aviation as part of my Psychology degree. His only recourse was a lantern box type of test which was done in his office. Unfortunately for me the doc was older than Jesus and so was his lantern box kit. To compound my problems he left the flourescent lights on for the test. I could barely see the light at all let alone tell what colour it was! <img src="mad.gif" border="0"> . .Several tests later (at other docs, since the old guy cashed his check about a month after my medical) and I was able to say that I clearly have a mild case of deutanope (green only) colourblindness. About all I'm really incapable of is co-ordinating subtle shades of some colours (i.e. I get my wife to occasionally check to see if this shirt goes with that tie, and don't hire me to choose the colours when you redecorate--I can however generally mix the paint and even tell if it's not right), which is not really part of the pilot's job--we all wear uniforms right?. .In the end TC was able to accomodate me for a "practical" test at the nearest suitable centre--Winnipeg (only about 1500km away). <img src="rolleyes.gif" border="0"> . .They parked me on the end of the runway one night and flashed the landing signal at me 30 times and that was that--no mistakes. <img src="tongue.gif" border="0"> . .Well, now I have amassed several thousand hours of flight time in aircraft equipped with colour radar, and a large amount in EFIS aircraft. I have yet to see how colour vision can be a limiting fault for any facet of flying with the possible exception of landing by light signals. That of course is one of those nearly archaic bits of aviation rulemaking which is now almost on the level of the old "the pilot may not wear spurs while flying the aircraft...." type regulations. . .For every light coded signal that I have ever seen there has been some way of distinguishing that signal by other means. By this I mean that an amber light for a master caution MUST have printed on or beside it "master caution". Even on the latest full EFIS aircraft (I do instructing and production test flying on regional jets) where colour coded synoptic displays are the rule, all abnormalities are backed up with like coloured messages, and aural cues which are discrete for the colours. The only thing in a modern cockpit which relies solely on colour is the Wx radar. The nature of that display is such that all but the most profoundly colourblind can distinguish one colour from the other, and there the patterns make up for the lack of other cues (i.e. you never see the red stuff outside the green stuff). I even checked this one out with a guy who couldn't tell red light from green when driving unless they were arranged in the usual pattern-- and he could point out where the storm was!. .Colours in aviation are (and I'm speaking as one who has studied this) associative cues. They make things a bit easier to see and process (you can process better sometimes if you can say "damn it's the big RED light that's on" as opposed to "damn that light just came on"). It is a good thing, but certainly not the kind of thing that even remotely creates a dangerous situation by not being present. To say that "Elliot won't see it as fast as Bob because he has to read the message" may be valid, but then Ellion may also have better vision (doesn't need bifocals, or smoke), strength (I have seen women unable to manually extend the gear on a CRJ, and men who had to leave their seat to do it, while I can one-hand it and keep my other on the checklist), stamina, or whatever than the person who is next to me. Do we check for these things during medicals? Nope. Do we have to have lightning reflexes to pass? Nope. Do we have to have a min IQ? Nope (although I have seen more than a few pilots who would make me think it not a bad idea--I mean guys and girls who are, all kidding aside, not equipped to handle complex machinery). As long as you can drag yourself into the doc's office and prove passable a good heart,hearing, eyesight (WITH lenses, even if you can't pee without), BP within limits, etc. you get a pilot's ticket. BUT should you be even slightly deficient in the colour vision, which is generally not a factor, you are out. Thank you very much, have a nice day, don't let the doorknob hit your @ss on the way out.

Okay, I'm done now.

By the way. Does anybody know if there's a place in Spain where I can do a JAA initial? I'll need one for some flying over that way this summer, and I am headed to Madrid next week for a month. . .Thanks

[Elliot Moose]

Well, here's the story in the great white north (and yes it does look white to me, and yes I can easily discern whether or not I'm eating yellow snow!). .When I first went for a medical (circa 1992) I ended up at one of those friendly old family type docs who also happened to do medicals. I of course flunked the Ishihara plates miserably. That said, I knew that I had more than adequate colour vision for the needs of a pilot as I had just spent the past two years studying human factors and ergonomics in aviation as part of my Psychology degree. His only recourse was a lantern box type of test which was done in his office. Unfortunately for me the doc was older than Jesus and so was his lantern box kit. To compound my problems he left the flourescent lights on for the test. I could barely see the light at all let alone tell what colour it was! <img src="mad.gif" border="0"> . .Several tests later (at other docs, since the old guy cashed his check about a month after my medical) and I was able to say that I clearly have a mild case of deutanope (green only) colourblindness. About all I'm really incapable of is co-ordinating subtle shades of some colours (i.e. I get my wife to occasionally check to see if this shirt goes with that tie, and don't hire me to choose the colours when you redecorate--I can however generally mix the paint and even tell if it's not right), which is not really part of the pilot's job--we all wear uniforms right?. .In the end TC was able to accomodate me for a "practical" test at the nearest suitable centre--Winnipeg (only about 1500km away). <img src="rolleyes.gif" border="0"> . .They parked me on the end of the runway one night and flashed the landing signal at me 30 times and that was that--no mistakes. <img src="tongue.gif" border="0"> . .Well, now I have amassed several thousand hours of flight time in aircraft equipped with colour radar, and a large amount in EFIS aircraft. I have yet to see how colour vision can be a limiting fault for any facet of flying with the possible exception of landing by light signals. That of course is one of those nearly archaic bits of aviation rulemaking which is now almost on the level of the old "the pilot may not wear spurs while flying the aircraft...." type regulations. . .For every light coded signal that I have ever seen there has been some way of distinguishing that signal by other means. By this I mean that an amber light for a master caution MUST have printed on or beside it "master caution". Even on the latest full EFIS aircraft (I do instructing and production test flying on regional jets) where colour coded synoptic displays are the rule, all abnormalities are backed up with like coloured messages, and aural cues which are discrete for the colours. The only thing in a modern cockpit which relies solely on colour is the Wx radar. The nature of that display is such that all but the most profoundly colourblind can distinguish one colour from the other, and there the patterns make up for the lack of other cues (i.e. you never see the red stuff outside the green stuff). I even checked this one out with a guy who couldn't tell red light from green when driving unless they were arranged in the usual pattern-- and he could point out where the storm was!. .Colours in aviation are (and I'm speaking as one who has studied this) associative cues. They make things a bit easier to see and process (you can process better sometimes if you can say "damn it's the big RED light that's on" as opposed to "damn that light just came on"). It is a good thing, but certainly not the kind of thing that even remotely creates a dangerous situation by not being present. To say that "Elliot won't see it as fast as Bob because he has to read the message" may be valid, but then Ellion may also have better vision (doesn't need bifocals, or smoke), strength (I have seen women unable to manually extend the gear on a CRJ, and men who had to leave their seat to do it, while I can one-hand it and keep my other on the checklist), stamina, or whatever than the person who is next to me. Do we check for these things during medicals? Nope. Do we have to have lightning reflexes to pass? Nope. Do we have to have a min IQ? Nope (although I have seen more than a few pilots who would make me think it not a bad idea--I mean guys and girls who are, all kidding aside, not equipped to handle complex machinery). As long as you can drag yourself into the doc's office and prove passable a good heart,hearing, eyesight (WITH lenses, even if you can't pee without), BP within limits, etc. you get a pilot's ticket. BUT should you be even slightly deficient in the colour vision, which is generally not a factor, you are out. Thank you very much, have a nice day, don't let the doorknob hit your @ss on the way out.

Okay, I'm done now.

By the way. Does anybody know if there's a place in Spain where I can do a JAA initial? I'll need one for some flying over that way this summer, and I am headed to Madrid next week for a month. . .Thanks

[Dutch-pilot]

Hello,

I read all these posts but I still have some questions left!

last year I was examined for a Dutch JAA medical Class I at Soesterberg. I did Ishihara and Holmes Wright but failed both. I failed HW with only 1 fault. You guys say I would make a better chance to retest in Switserland. But if I retest there and so get my medical Class I, is that Swiss class I totally equal to a Dutch Class I?? Is it only a formality to get my Dutch Class I?? Or... what are the difficulties if I test in Switserland, get my Class I and want to fly in Dutch registered aircrafts??

What's the address of the Swiss Medical Aviation Department?? Do they have a web-page as well?? A peculiar doctor suggested?!

Adios!. .D-P.

[Dutch-pilot]

Hello,

I read all these posts but I still have some questions left!

last year I was examined for a Dutch JAA medical Class I at Soesterberg. I did Ishihara and Holmes Wright but failed both. I failed HW with only 1 fault. You guys say I would make a better chance to retest in Switserland. But if I retest there and so get my medical Class I, is that Swiss class I totally equal to a Dutch Class I?? Is it only a formality to get my Dutch Class I?? Or... what are the difficulties if I test in Switserland, get my Class I and want to fly in Dutch registered aircrafts??

What's the address of the Swiss Medical Aviation Department?? Do they have a web-page as well?? A peculiar doctor suggested?!

Adios!. .D-P.

[inverted flatspin]

just flagging this one up

[inverted flatspin]

just flagging this one up

[N2334M]

Dear Dutch Pilot,. .. .To apply for an initial first class medical your must pass the examination at an AMC (in Dubendorf for Switzerland).. .. .The colour vision test will be done there.. .. .An AME has no right to pass the specialized colour lantern test.. .. .An AME has no right to remove any limitation, that must be done by the AeroMedical Centre.. .. .I do not have any more details about Dubendorf, but I am pretty sure you can obtain some more information contacting them by their internet site, the url is:. .. .<a href="http://www.aviation.admin.ch/" target="_blank">http://www.aviation.admin.ch/</a>. .. .I do not know what kind of colour vision tests they are using in Dubendorf.. .. .I hope this helps you.. .. .Please let us know what they say.... .. .Best regards,. .N2334M

[N2334M]

Dear Dutch Pilot,. .. .To apply for an initial first class medical your must pass the examination at an AMC (in Dubendorf for Switzerland).. .. .The colour vision test will be done there.. .. .An AME has no right to pass the specialized colour lantern test.. .. .An AME has no right to remove any limitation, that must be done by the AeroMedical Centre.. .. .I do not have any more details about Dubendorf, but I am pretty sure you can obtain some more information contacting them by their internet site, the url is:. .. .<a href="http://www.aviation.admin.ch/" target="_blank">http://www.aviation.admin.ch/</a>. .. .I do not know what kind of colour vision tests they are using in Dubendorf.. .. .I hope this helps you.. .. .Please let us know what they say.... .. .Best regards,. .N2334M

[itsresidual]

I'm a UK CAA licensed aircraft engineer. I hold full certifying authority on several airliner types, including limited avionics authority.. .. .I'm currently looking into flying training for myself. However, I know from experience that I will fail both the Ishihara test and the Farnsworth Lantern test.. .. .I have read that one of the reasons cited by aviation authorities for the high colour perception standards currently in force, is the requirement to differentiate between coloured lights on the flight deck.. .. .My point is this-. .. .If my colour perception standard prevents me from operating aircraft at night as a pilot, why does the same aviation authority allow me to carry out high power engine runs, with all the attendant risks of fire, loss of aircraft, etc, at UK airports? I assume the lights I monitor are the same lights pilots use!. .Most transport aircraft have a multitude of lights on their warning panels, red, green and white. Amber and red attention getters on the glare shield inform the pilot to look at the master warning panel. If an amber attention getter flashes, would a pilot ignore it because it isn’t as important as a red attention getter? Of course not, be it red or amber, a pilot would look at the master warning panel. Again, on the master panel, colour vision does not help. There’s dozens of amber lights and almost as many red. You still have to read the legend on the light to find out what system you are supposed to action.. .. .And how about the safety aspect? The EFIS, weather radar and other colour using equipment that prevents you and I from flying, is serviced and certified by me!. .. .Fear not, although I am unable to pass a CAA colour test, I find no problem (as I suspect most of you do) in recognizing all colours in the flight deck, both at night and in daylight (I have confirmed this with other ‘normal’ engineers). I also find no problem in recognizing airfield lights, even PAPIs on my jumpseat rides.. .. .Now, I do of course realise that there is a difference between dealing with an engine fire in flight and on the ground, but I believe colour perception will play a negligible part in flight deck operations.. .. .As a note of interest, the CAA has no colour vision requirement for licensed aircraft engineers.

[itsresidual]

I'm a UK CAA licensed aircraft engineer. I hold full certifying authority on several airliner types, including limited avionics authority.. .. .I'm currently looking into flying training for myself. However, I know from experience that I will fail both the Ishihara test and the Farnsworth Lantern test.. .. .I have read that one of the reasons cited by aviation authorities for the high colour perception standards currently in force, is the requirement to differentiate between coloured lights on the flight deck.. .. .My point is this-. .. .If my colour perception standard prevents me from operating aircraft at night as a pilot, why does the same aviation authority allow me to carry out high power engine runs, with all the attendant risks of fire, loss of aircraft, etc, at UK airports? I assume the lights I monitor are the same lights pilots use!. .Most transport aircraft have a multitude of lights on their warning panels, red, green and white. Amber and red attention getters on the glare shield inform the pilot to look at the master warning panel. If an amber attention getter flashes, would a pilot ignore it because it isn’t as important as a red attention getter? Of course not, be it red or amber, a pilot would look at the master warning panel. Again, on the master panel, colour vision does not help. There’s dozens of amber lights and almost as many red. You still have to read the legend on the light to find out what system you are supposed to action.. .. .And how about the safety aspect? The EFIS, weather radar and other colour using equipment that prevents you and I from flying, is serviced and certified by me!. .. .Fear not, although I am unable to pass a CAA colour test, I find no problem (as I suspect most of you do) in recognizing all colours in the flight deck, both at night and in daylight (I have confirmed this with other ‘normal’ engineers). I also find no problem in recognizing airfield lights, even PAPIs on my jumpseat rides.. .. .Now, I do of course realise that there is a difference between dealing with an engine fire in flight and on the ground, but I believe colour perception will play a negligible part in flight deck operations.. .. .As a note of interest, the CAA has no colour vision requirement for licensed aircraft engineers.

[inverted flatspin]

I came across this while surfing, I have to admit that I am a bit of a sceptic regarding alternative treatments but you never know I guess it can't do any harm. I will take this to an acupunturist and see if there is any improvement.. .. .<a href="http://www.acuxo.com/meridianPictures.asp?point=BL1&meridian=Bladder" target="_blank">http://www.acuxo.com/meridianPictures.asp?point=BL1&meridian=Bladder</a>

[inverted flatspin]

I came across this while surfing, I have to admit that I am a bit of a sceptic regarding alternative treatments but you never know I guess it can't do any harm. I will take this to an acupunturist and see if there is any improvement.. .. .<a href="http://www.acuxo.com/meridianPictures.asp?point=BL1&meridian=Bladder" target="_blank">http://www.acuxo.com/meridianPictures.asp?point=BL1&meridian=Bladder</a>

[777AV8R]

Here is some information on the subject, from an FAA prospective that you all might find appropriate, accurate and up to date.http://www.aviationmedicine.com/colorvision.htm

[777AV8R]

Here is some information on the subject, from an FAA prospective that you all might find appropriate, accurate and up to date.http://www.aviationmedicine.com/colorvision.htm

[Dutch-pilot]

Hi N2334M and others,. .. .I checked the Swiss AME site. Unfortunately I cannot find any information about colour vision. I even cannot find anything about medical examinations! I sent them an e-mail.. .. .I'll keep you posted!. .. .Kind regards,. .PTR

[Dutch-pilot]

Hi N2334M and others,. .. .I checked the Swiss AME site. Unfortunately I cannot find any information about colour vision. I even cannot find anything about medical examinations! I sent them an e-mail.. .. .I'll keep you posted!. .. .Kind regards,. .PTR

[N2334M]

Any news regarding the new Beyne's lantern test at Gatwick CAA ? Are they still testing it ? Is it ready to sit ?. .. .Bye,. .N2334M.