Agusta A109
Is Mr 99 the sole keeper of 109 information in the U.K. or is anyone else able/allowed to comment.
Back in my day, a 109 INSTRUMENT type rating could be done (provided it wasn't the first twin type on the old licence) in 8 hours. That was for both visual AND instruments portions.
I'd be interested to know the best rates for 109 type training in Europe/UK at the moment. (I'm assuming Sloane won't feature on the list
)
P.S. I hope I'm not "obviously having a bad day"
Back in my day, a 109 INSTRUMENT type rating could be done (provided it wasn't the first twin type on the old licence) in 8 hours. That was for both visual AND instruments portions.
I'd be interested to know the best rates for 109 type training in Europe/UK at the moment. (I'm assuming Sloane won't feature on the list
)P.S. I hope I'm not "obviously having a bad day"
Crazy Scandihooligan
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A109 + IFR
Bravo 99 (AJB)
So you must be working for Tiger Helicopters then. They are the only people i know who have been developing the Augusta 109 "training suite" in their new hangar. Simulator and all. Heard bragging about kicking out IR ratings for about £17k... Please tell me i am completely wrong and barking up the wrong tree here
If it is the case, i shall be avoiding Tiger even more than i did before. Seems like standards are dropping.
MD
So you must be working for Tiger Helicopters then. They are the only people i know who have been developing the Augusta 109 "training suite" in their new hangar. Simulator and all. Heard bragging about kicking out IR ratings for about £17k... Please tell me i am completely wrong and barking up the wrong tree here
If it is the case, i shall be avoiding Tiger even more than i did before. Seems like standards are dropping.
MD
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Bravo 99
I thought you were the in the offshore game? Your previous posts (and indeed your profile) give the impression that you are a Dauphin pilot in Blackpool?? (How long did that last?)
This week, it seems, you are a 109/simulator guru!!! Before shelling out £17k(?!) for an IR, please let all us instrument rating hopefuls know how much 109 time you have. How much real world experience you are able to bring to the table for those of us with even less experience than your good self??
You state:
"If any corners try to get cut i will be out the door"
That's a pretty ballsy stance for a low time guy with no job to move on to and dwindling options in the UK industry. I admire the character behind those words, but I know how tough it is to be low time and in debt and it would be quite something to be able to walk away, especially at Christmas!
I don't mean this to be a personal attack, I really don't. But as I recall the praise you heaped upon PAS for the quality of instrument training that you received, I know that you will understand how big a deal this is. Many newbies and North Sea hopefuls have little cash left by the time they are contemplating the IR; why would they chose you/Tiger.
Hand on heart, if you did it all again, would you have chosen PAS again or opted for the unproven, Ryanair option??
As the Tiger Helicopters spokesman, you have the floor.
I thought you were the in the offshore game? Your previous posts (and indeed your profile) give the impression that you are a Dauphin pilot in Blackpool?? (How long did that last?)
This week, it seems, you are a 109/simulator guru!!! Before shelling out £17k(?!) for an IR, please let all us instrument rating hopefuls know how much 109 time you have. How much real world experience you are able to bring to the table for those of us with even less experience than your good self??
You state:
"If any corners try to get cut i will be out the door"
That's a pretty ballsy stance for a low time guy with no job to move on to and dwindling options in the UK industry. I admire the character behind those words, but I know how tough it is to be low time and in debt and it would be quite something to be able to walk away, especially at Christmas!
I don't mean this to be a personal attack, I really don't. But as I recall the praise you heaped upon PAS for the quality of instrument training that you received, I know that you will understand how big a deal this is. Many newbies and North Sea hopefuls have little cash left by the time they are contemplating the IR; why would they chose you/Tiger.
Hand on heart, if you did it all again, would you have chosen PAS again or opted for the unproven, Ryanair option??
As the Tiger Helicopters spokesman, you have the floor.
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Yes i worked on the rigs and yes i dont work there any more political reasons none other.
i have always been honest in my presentations on this site so dont try and chip away at my profile i have been about a bit now
"always been honest"?? - We don't think so!
and yes that may be a bulshy statment
Many of us are looking for the best value when we spend our hard earned/borrowed money. We also need to consider how much our training may be seen to give us the edge over other job candidates. Training received from a respected establishment is often worth the higher price.
I asked:
Hand on heart, if you did it all again, would you have chosen PAS again or opted for the unproven, Ryanair option??
If i had my time again yes i would go to PAS
"It's marketing Jim, but not as we know it!"
For your objective honesty in answering my question, I thank you. (I can only wonder if your boss will do the same)
P.S. Please resist the urge to continually go back and edit/delete your posts
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Just a quick question, is this your initail IR or do you already hold a valid UK or JAR IR if not do you have any twin time? The reason I ask is it's a difficult question to answer with out this info, in fact it's a difficult question to answer with the answer.
All I can tell you for now is depending on type any thing from £800 to £1200 per hour wet, dependant on type i.e A109MkII £800, A109E £1200, oh put VAT on top, so need to be able to get that back if poss as most are run as a buisness.
IRI will charge around £400-£500 per day.
Other great stuff like landing fees, acomadation, travel, beer (you will probably need one after this), approuch fees come in to it some place or other, oh the list goes on.
Still wake up screamimg.
All I can tell you for now is depending on type any thing from £800 to £1200 per hour wet, dependant on type i.e A109MkII £800, A109E £1200, oh put VAT on top, so need to be able to get that back if poss as most are run as a buisness.
IRI will charge around £400-£500 per day.
Other great stuff like landing fees, acomadation, travel, beer (you will probably need one after this), approuch fees come in to it some place or other, oh the list goes on.
Still wake up screamimg.
Crazy Scandihooligan
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A109 Rating + IFR
Bravo 99 (AJB)
The reason i said standards were dropping, are because they must be desparate to be hiring a guy, with so much b/s going on. I have never seen a guy who has been slated on this forum, only by his own mistakes and lies.
As for the comments made by Rocket Surgeon i guess there are many that agree with his statments, me included. I think you have done yourself no favours there me old buddy.
As for your profile, i think it is impossible for a FI (R) to teach IFR, but then i suppose you must have an Instrument Instructors Rating too. I guess Alan is going to chuck that in with your glorious job eh?
Did they mention to you that they were planning on building a Heli-Deck behind the hangar. so they could train the pilots on it and make them Heli Deck Ready? I guess not. That hangar is a big one and by "in the corner" i should have stated that it takes a third of the hangar. With proposed plans of cutting costs by making most of the training in the sim, and then doing a minimum requiredin the actual machine. Has Tiger bought some more surplus A109's from Sloanes.... Hmmm
Tiger run a shrewd operation and i guess Capt. Alan Ramsden, wouldnt be where he is today, without having a shrewd business acumen, but as for standards... i won't even go there. Make your mind up , but get past all the glitz and glory. How many ILS glide paths do you see at Shobdon eh? Not even an NDB so you can do an NDB Drop down on. So that would tell me you would have to burn shed loads of fuel to get to where you could do the training = £££.
So why not save the forum from your b/s and tell us what you know, instead of what you want people to see you as
MD
The reason i said standards were dropping, are because they must be desparate to be hiring a guy, with so much b/s going on. I have never seen a guy who has been slated on this forum, only by his own mistakes and lies.
As for the comments made by Rocket Surgeon i guess there are many that agree with his statments, me included. I think you have done yourself no favours there me old buddy.
As for your profile, i think it is impossible for a FI (R) to teach IFR, but then i suppose you must have an Instrument Instructors Rating too. I guess Alan is going to chuck that in with your glorious job eh?
Did they mention to you that they were planning on building a Heli-Deck behind the hangar. so they could train the pilots on it and make them Heli Deck Ready? I guess not. That hangar is a big one and by "in the corner" i should have stated that it takes a third of the hangar. With proposed plans of cutting costs by making most of the training in the sim, and then doing a minimum requiredin the actual machine. Has Tiger bought some more surplus A109's from Sloanes.... Hmmm
Tiger run a shrewd operation and i guess Capt. Alan Ramsden, wouldnt be where he is today, without having a shrewd business acumen, but as for standards... i won't even go there. Make your mind up , but get past all the glitz and glory. How many ILS glide paths do you see at Shobdon eh? Not even an NDB so you can do an NDB Drop down on. So that would tell me you would have to burn shed loads of fuel to get to where you could do the training = £££.
So why not save the forum from your b/s and tell us what you know, instead of what you want people to see you as
MD
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I do so enjoy the bovine waste matter that gushes forth from AJB.
As Mark Twain once put it, "Better to have people think you're a fool than to open your mouth and remove all doubt".
More please!
As Mark Twain once put it, "Better to have people think you're a fool than to open your mouth and remove all doubt".
More please!
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well look who we have got to do IR training with in the UK, we have "them nice people in Gloucester", "them nice people at Cranfield", and "them nice people in Norwich" and now we have some new nice people at Shobdon.
If I was going to do an IR I would choose the ones who have the most experience of actually flying IFR which I would assume is them people in Norwich.
Cos you want to be trained by a guy (or girl) who has been around on the actual IFR streets and knows the score, dont you?
or do we want to be expensively trained by the least experienced people now?
or possibly I am missing something? dunno
If I was going to do an IR I would choose the ones who have the most experience of actually flying IFR which I would assume is them people in Norwich.
Cos you want to be trained by a guy (or girl) who has been around on the actual IFR streets and knows the score, dont you?
or do we want to be expensively trained by the least experienced people now?
or possibly I am missing something? dunno
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Fantastic Job Steve!!
Do the words Pre-Flight mean anything to you?
Or do you rely on the same useless engineer that put the thing together wrongly in the first place to have a look at it for you on the their daily inspection?
You guys need to have a good hard look at your selves, when you are finished patting each other on the back.
Is it beneath you to climb up on the machine and have a good look? Do you have a ladder available?
Have the engineer involved been factory trained? This problem is made very clear on the factory course. Or do we partially train our engineers and then let them work it out for them selves?
This company, in making the same mistake twice has made a fool of the engineering management and quality system. Making the mistake three times is exceptional.
Well done!! Great job!!
Do the words Pre-Flight mean anything to you?
Or do you rely on the same useless engineer that put the thing together wrongly in the first place to have a look at it for you on the their daily inspection?
You guys need to have a good hard look at your selves, when you are finished patting each other on the back.
Is it beneath you to climb up on the machine and have a good look? Do you have a ladder available?
Have the engineer involved been factory trained? This problem is made very clear on the factory course. Or do we partially train our engineers and then let them work it out for them selves?
This company, in making the same mistake twice has made a fool of the engineering management and quality system. Making the mistake three times is exceptional.
Well done!! Great job!!
I knew someone called "seagull" because he flew in, crapped on people, and flew out without regard to the consequences.
Can you tell me:
1. When the MM was modified to show the correct orientation of the parts ?
2. When the courses were amended to provide information about this problem ?
3. How a safety critical part was designed by the manufacturer in such a way that it could be installed both ways round, but only be properly installed in one orientation ?
Can you tell me:
1. When the MM was modified to show the correct orientation of the parts ?
2. When the courses were amended to provide information about this problem ?
3. How a safety critical part was designed by the manufacturer in such a way that it could be installed both ways round, but only be properly installed in one orientation ?
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Nr Fairy,
I apologize to Steve for pointing the finger at him in that manner. Likewise I believe the two engineers involved should receive an apology from other contributors to this string for their comments and assumptions. If Steve had been the beneficiary of Agusta’s factory ground school training an apology would not be forthcoming. There was an opportunity to prevent this incident but unfortunately that opportunity was lost. That opportunity would not have been lost if adequate training was afforded all involved. Pilot training consumes the lion’s share of most aviation company training budgets. If your company can not afford to send all pilots and engineers to the factory for training then it should make sure the staff that does receive factory training have the capacity to pass that information on to all others.
The fact that this problem has occurred tree times now points to an underlying systemic insufficiency. Steve and the two engineers have been seriously let down by their company.
I have no way of knowing what the underlying factors are. But I would be happy to speculate.
Maybe the person that did the actual hands on work was not licensed or properly trained.
Maybe the person certifying for the work was not able to adequately supervise all in his charge.
We know the pilot did not receive factory training.
Maybe the check and training person did not receive adequate training either.
In answer to your questions:
1. The Maintenance Manual and the Illustrated Parts breakdown have always shown the correct orientation of these parts. If you have access to these publications I would be happy to provide you with the figure references. Otherwise I can e-mail you a scanned copy of these pages. There is also an Agusta information letter on the subject. This problem and the previous incidents are well documented. You might even find some internal company documentation.
2. I am not in a position to provide you with accurate information as to when or if Agusta amended its course syllabus. However I can assure you that I was made very aware of this issue when I received my training three years ago.
3. There are several critical parts on the A109 and most other aircraft that can easily be fitted incorrectly. If you can be bothered to answer my questions I will be happy to make some time and list them for you. How sweet it must be to think aircraft engineering on helicopters is so simple that they will only go together one way. You really have no clue do you!
Now, if you or somebody else would like to take the time and answer my questions I would appreciate it.
1. Have the engineers involved been factory trained?
2. Do you have a ladder available for your pre-flight inspection?
3. Is there a culture that prevents a pilot taking the time to carry out a thorough pre-flight inspection?
4. Some training must be happening! Are the right people receiving training or is training reserved for the Chief Engineer’s favourites and not the people that need it.
5. Are there contributing human factors?
To simply point the finger at the two engineers is a serious cop out. If this is the full extent of how you address this issue you are doomed to repeat this incident.
It is not overly dramatic to say your life depends on adequate engineering training. I would start to take an interest if I were you.
I apologize to Steve for pointing the finger at him in that manner. Likewise I believe the two engineers involved should receive an apology from other contributors to this string for their comments and assumptions. If Steve had been the beneficiary of Agusta’s factory ground school training an apology would not be forthcoming. There was an opportunity to prevent this incident but unfortunately that opportunity was lost. That opportunity would not have been lost if adequate training was afforded all involved. Pilot training consumes the lion’s share of most aviation company training budgets. If your company can not afford to send all pilots and engineers to the factory for training then it should make sure the staff that does receive factory training have the capacity to pass that information on to all others.
The fact that this problem has occurred tree times now points to an underlying systemic insufficiency. Steve and the two engineers have been seriously let down by their company.
I have no way of knowing what the underlying factors are. But I would be happy to speculate.
Maybe the person that did the actual hands on work was not licensed or properly trained.
Maybe the person certifying for the work was not able to adequately supervise all in his charge.
We know the pilot did not receive factory training.
Maybe the check and training person did not receive adequate training either.
In answer to your questions:
1. The Maintenance Manual and the Illustrated Parts breakdown have always shown the correct orientation of these parts. If you have access to these publications I would be happy to provide you with the figure references. Otherwise I can e-mail you a scanned copy of these pages. There is also an Agusta information letter on the subject. This problem and the previous incidents are well documented. You might even find some internal company documentation.
2. I am not in a position to provide you with accurate information as to when or if Agusta amended its course syllabus. However I can assure you that I was made very aware of this issue when I received my training three years ago.
3. There are several critical parts on the A109 and most other aircraft that can easily be fitted incorrectly. If you can be bothered to answer my questions I will be happy to make some time and list them for you. How sweet it must be to think aircraft engineering on helicopters is so simple that they will only go together one way. You really have no clue do you!
Now, if you or somebody else would like to take the time and answer my questions I would appreciate it.
1. Have the engineers involved been factory trained?
2. Do you have a ladder available for your pre-flight inspection?
3. Is there a culture that prevents a pilot taking the time to carry out a thorough pre-flight inspection?
4. Some training must be happening! Are the right people receiving training or is training reserved for the Chief Engineer’s favourites and not the people that need it.
5. Are there contributing human factors?
To simply point the finger at the two engineers is a serious cop out. If this is the full extent of how you address this issue you are doomed to repeat this incident.
It is not overly dramatic to say your life depends on adequate engineering training. I would start to take an interest if I were you.
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Seagull
You're being very hard on Steve.
The first accident was five years ago. The investigation missed the true cause and came up with the wrong explanation so when Steve had his accident six months after the first one, nobody knew about the scissors link problem.
Both helos were maintained by the UK Agusta service center and they made the same mistake both times.
I guess Agusta did make a big point about it on the factory course you did three years ago.
You're being very hard on Steve.
The first accident was five years ago. The investigation missed the true cause and came up with the wrong explanation so when Steve had his accident six months after the first one, nobody knew about the scissors link problem.
Both helos were maintained by the UK Agusta service center and they made the same mistake both times.
I guess Agusta did make a big point about it on the factory course you did three years ago.