Becoming a professional pilot, and finding a job

[Whirlybird]

Skycop,

That is really really interesting. I never looked into it in any detail, since I didn't really plan to go that route, but the sort of general rumours floating (hovering?) around at flying schools - well, one in particular - were that you did your CPL(H), off you went to the North Sea with your certificate and your 185 hours (this was pre 9/11), and after two or three years there the rotary world was your oyster!!!! .

All, it would seem, bloody lies!!! Though is the fact that flying schools bend the truth to get customers anything new? Trouble is, not a lot of newish PPLs know that.

[MBJ]

Jimbob 123, are you under 26 and have you got some A levels? If so join the military and get the Queen (God bless her!) to pay for your training. I've been doing it 33 years now and its still a blast!

As for RW or FW, well, RW is so cool it hurts, FW drive buses for much more money. (But are they really, really happy?...)

[too young to die]

additional info

Interesting AB, is there any links or news on the web reference this NZ Govt enquiry of aviation degrees?

[Shawn Coyle]

Regarding getting the degree-
It may be a tossup whether the degree will actually help or not, but a surprising number of airlines require a degree, and it will only be a matter of time before that hits the helicopter world too. Right now there are a surprising number of helicopter pilots who have no degree and no intention of getting a degree. Does this hinder our technical knowledge and ability to make things better? Not sure, but it would be an interesting study.
Unfortunately if it is shown that a large part of the operators not having a degree does hinder the overall technical picture, it's way too late to do anything about it.
Get the degree - you never know when it, and the knowledge that went into it will come in handy.
(from an engineering degree holder)

[helipilotnz]

training in nz

hi all
i started last year doing a diploma in aviation at SIT in invercargill. it contains a management diploma and commercial helicopter with turbine rating or stiffy commercial with multi rating. i have achieved the ppl(h) and this year will continue towards cpl. options for extras are pretty good. i am also doing ppl(a) then a stiffy instrument rating( as there is no other way to get inst in nz). i am considering geting the PIC time and then a c cat rating at the end of this year and begining of the next. the government has kindly let me put this on a student loan ( first time for helicopter last year) i will be in debt a lot but hopfully employable. i am english born but if you can get citizenship it is not a problem. our weather conditions and terrain are apparently great to learn in while still being cheapish. the job market is an unknown quatity for us being newbies but the diploma in management should help get in the door(fingers crossed). some great advice above. i just hope i can get a green card as the usa seems the only place to find work with low time.

[PILGRIM PETE]

I'm in a similar situation to HelipilotNZ, Pomme training for a CPL H and full time job to boot, I'm not going through any Uni though.
A mate at work knows someone just starting a CPL H through Massey but its going to cost him 70K NZ which is plenty more than I'm paying (admitedly he's on a 300 & I'm on a 22. Seems like the ground school is subsidised but the flying may not be.
I know one thing, Uni's will do anything to sell courses and if people want to pay....
It's a shame, NZ has shed loads of jobs, just not in aviation but that's not unique. Whats more worrying is the sometimes poor perception of NZ employers, can't be all bad.

[DesertRacer]

Capt. Spud,
I am in Prescott as well. I will be starting at Guidance soon, if you are going to do the helicopter thing let me know, or if you have already started, give me a heads up on how it's going. It's nice to get to know some people in the Heli business here in town.
Justin

[Ready2Fly]

Advice on how to start....

Hi,

i want to ask for your advice on some issues when starting a PPL(H) and beware, i am a real beginner:

I was always interested in helicopters (otherwise i would not be here) but i did not go for it as a profession. Meanwhile i have a well paid profession not within aviation and i am in a position to pay for taking lessons towards a PPL(H). I am in germany so maybe things differ but i think some things are the same all over the world.

Last August i had the chance of taking an introdution lesson and this was maybe the biggest 'mistake' because afterwards i was not just interested in helicopters anymore but i knew i had to get a licence. The company i flew with is not just a flying school but does several other tasks in aviation including maintenance. It was a sunny day and after 30 minutes of briefing we went out to the helicopter (R22) and 5 minutes later we were airborn. We got to the grass runway to hover and i was told by the instructor first to take care of the pedals then cyclic and last but not least the stick as well. I have never been flying a helicopter before and it was kind of 'frightening' because the helicopter was flying with me and not i with the helicopter (ok, what do you expect after 10 minutes). But nevertheless it got better. The instructor told me he was 'impressed' with what i achieved after about 20 minutes. I would have crashed the helicopter when being alone in - no question - but he said, others would need 5 to 7 hours for what i did after 30 minutes and i was up to the top 5 students he had. Then we did some circuits where he demonstrated two autos (i had control in the circuits as well) and short before the end he told me, it was a waste of talent if i did not start to take lessons and get a licence.

Now, i am not 18 anymore, so, eventhough i was flattered at first i kindly felt kind of - hmmm - let's say a bad smell some days after because it came to my mind, that he was maybe just more interested in getting a new contract signed for the company.

Nevertheless, i collected all the necessary documents including medical (german class I and III) and i am waiting for spring to start. I have not had a look for other schools because - like i said - i got a good impression of the company, nice environment and helpful, friendly and supportive staff always open to answer questions. And furthermore, there are not that many schools around in germany (compared to the US for example).

My question is: What would you consider (in terms of the school) before signing a contract that moves about 25k dollars out of your pocket (PPL(H) with ratings on R22 and R44)?

The instructor i have been flying with was about 8 years younger then myself and had about 500 hours at that point of time. Maybe i am wrongly thinking about his interest and i am really 'talented' and it was really just is opinion.

The company is in business for about 16 years and my guess is, that the flying school (R22 and R44) takes only 20%-30% of their tasks. They are also operating turbines like A109C, B206, BO105, EC120B, AS350B2 and AS355N.

Sorry for this rather long post and i hope you have some opinions to share.

Best regards

[B Sousa]

Sounds Like your Instructor was "blowin smoke" to get you to sign up.
If you want to fly, do it. You can shop around and depending on what you want out of flying, adjust your training accordingly. Some want to make it a career, others just for a hobby. Some have tons of money, the rest of us are broke.
Dont jump into ANY contracts until your sure. They have a tendancy to bite you in the ass if for some reason you dont want to continue. www.aopa.org may have some legal advice on contracts. I personally think that if you want to fly, put some money on the books, fly it off, then put some more. That way they have an incentive to keep you around.
Another thing you dont want to get caught in is doing some training,then laying off for a period. Its sort of like taking one step forward and two back. It also costs you more money. Try and get things done in as short of a period of time as you can.
Good Luck.

[pa42]

refining your approach . . .

One hopes you've made a list of OTHER fun things you could do with $25K. As you seem to know, you're putting yourself at risk of becoming addicted. And asking for advice from other addicts? Hmmm. What does your psychiatrist say?

Given that caveat, I WOULD NOT hand over $25K at the outset--too many companies suddenly go out of business when the principals take off for Rio with the bank accounts. In the USA, Enron comes to mind--certified by major accounting firms, but Poof! all gone.

But as B Sousa comments, it's counterproductive to do a few lessons and then lay off for a while. VERY counterproductive. So do this instead: put the $25K in a separate, dedicated bank account, so there will always be reserve funds to take you all the way through training. But it's in YOUR name, so if they fold you still have it!

Counterproductivity: when I was a Chief Flight Instructor, my school attendance records & CFI evaluations showed clearly that a student who did NOT take two lessons a week kept having to review things already learned-and-forgotten. And in our coastal fog environment (Santa Barbara, CA) the student had to be scheduled for FOUR lessons a week so as to complete two a week, the others being cancelled for weather.

So give up everything else in your life for the few months it takes to get your ratings. Don't allow distractions or cancellations for parties or hangovers or girls--get through the license, THEN relax.

If you want to reduce total flight training hours, study not only the texts, but hang a broomstick cyclic in front of the TV, another broomstick for collective hangs from chairback, and something for pedals. Practice, practice, practice. Stack of flashcards on your knee at same time? Endless free possibilities. (Suspend TV from pulleys connected to the broomsticks? Work it all out and simulator sales will pay for your new R44!)

[Ready2Fly]

Thanks for your comments so far and please keep them coming:

@kissmysquirrel
Well, it seems europe is still holding a record in costs but i guess the UK is even more expensive on a per hour basis. In germany (still pre JAR-FCL) you need 45 hours, maybe 40 hours if you finish within 5 months. I am fine with an 500 hours instructor because i am sure he can bring us down more safe than i could on my own when flying with him.

@b Sousa
I have the same opinion concerning "blowin smoke". And to make this clear: I won't have to pay 25k in advance. At the beginning EUR 1200 for books and all training material including the paperwork the school does for me for the LBA (probably the FAA in germany). Then i have to put ~ EUR 3000 - 5000 into an account of the company and fly (one hour R22 is ~ EUR 300, one hour R44 ~ EUR 500 and my contract would be 30 hours R22, ten on R44 - that is for the minimum of 40 hours only, i bet i need more). When that amount is gone, you transfer the next part and so on. I will take a look at the website.

@pa 42
I know what else to buy for 25k but nothing, that "attracts" me in the same way (right now). Concerning getting addicted, well, too late. I should not have done the introduction lesson ;-) And for the money, look at my comments to b Sousa. And you are right: You have to concentrate on that ONE thing, otherwise it is a waste of time (well, ok) and money (ouch). The thing is, when i start with something i want to do it 110% or i would not want to start.

To all of you: I will definately try to do it in the shortest possible time. I think i would want to start with 5 hours of flying a day but that might be contraproductive because you get exhausted quite soon as a beginner i guess. Maybe i take a week off when i begin to do groundschool and flying at the same time (school in the morning and maybe 1-2 hours of flying in the afternoon). I should have at least 2 hours of flying a week. This was why i did not start in autumn last year, it gets dark too early to be able to fly in the early evening and i can not go on holidays for 6 weeks. Furthermore you have to get too many things in your head (theory but also flying): I do not want to waste time but on the other hand i do not want to rush.

I am asking myself how long it will take for me to be able to do a stable hover. Heard about these 5-7 hour 'rule' that it takes 'on average' for someone. And eventhough i do not have any comparison, my impression of the R22 is (what i read as well) that it is quite 'responsive' to any movements on the stick, even the vibration of the engine (which you feel in your hand) has to be compensated.

[B Sousa]

The amount of money to learn how to fly today is scary. I have been very fortunate in that respect. You can always explore other avenues and Im hoping someone will jump in and say I just did mine in the states and went back to Europe with a bunch of time much cheaper. Im not up on the conversions so as I said Im hoping.....hello out there, any new pilots who did it in the states??

[Whirlybird]

I got hooked on my trial lesson too. I too had an instructor who told me I was a natural, that he'd never seen anyone else hover with all three controls on a trial lesson, even for the few seconds I managed, that it would really be a shame if I didn't carry on. He was a good salesman, that's all. I got my PPL(H) in about an average number of hours, and have never really been more than an average pilot. I don't regret it, far from it; I love helicopter flying and it's changed my life. But I don't agree with this flattering students to get them to sign up, and when I'm an instructor I won't do it.

How long will it take to learn to hover? I asked the same question. It's impossible to answer. How perfect do you want that hover to be? Are you talking about into wind, out of wind, with a headwind, with no wind, with a gusty wind, on a good day, on a bad day when you're tired? After 300+ hours, I could still improve a lot - and when I fly with a 15,000 hour instructor that becomes very obvious to me.

Five hours of flying a day is going to be counter productive; it's too much, especially at the beginning. I'm not a great believer in this doing it all as quickly as possible; do it at a rate which you enjoy, which fits in with your life, and which doesn't stress you too much. Stress makes learning difficult and therefore slower, so try and relax and enjoy the whole thing; not always easy.

Above all, good luck!

[helipilotnz]

new pilot price

i am doing a cpl over two years in conjunction with a diploma in management in New Zealand. my bill for last year was $40k kiwi for eighty hours ( half of the cpl time).this years is more as i am getting a couple of tubine aircraft ratings, ppl fixed wing and instrument rating ( only way in nz to get an inst rating is fixed wing, besides its cheaper) and the remainder of time for cpl. if you are able to travel shop around for prices. you also get better environments to learn in. not that i am a big time pilot but flying around wanaka and queenstown can be great fun and challenging. congrats on getting interested.

[Ready2Fly]

@Whirlybird
I think you are right in not doing the flattering with your students in the future. In some way it takes away some trust a student should have in his instructor. And with the hover: Well, i was just thinking about a stable hover on a sunny day with zero winds =:-) On a sidenote: I did always enjoy reading your posts about your 'helicopter career' and i am following your way to your FI. Press my thumbs for you and keep on going.

@helipilotnz
The NZD/EUR crossrate is 0.5070 which makes your $40k kiwi equivalent to EUR 20k. I have to say flying in New Zealand is not really a bargain compared to Germany (80 hours here in a R22 is then about $47k kiwi) but still much cheaper. Due to my situation (privat and business) i will not be able to travel around. I am not even sure whether accomodation abroad together with the costs of conversion (FAA to JAA) makes it that much cheaper to get a licence outside of germany. But for building hours you are definately right.

I would really like to know whether here are some pilots from germany around who did their licence abroad.

[Whirlybird]

Ready2Fly,

I agree with you about instructors; I ended up asking to fly with someone else as I didn't trust mine - there was more too it than this, but I think that's where it started...when I found out I mean. As for your hover; it'll take you a few hours, but that's more likely to be a few shortish sessions at the end of other exercises, though schools vary on this. You simply can't practise hovering for that long; it's too intense and you tense up and it's counter productive. So it doesn't actually take that long...but it'll feel like longer than it is! And, of course, people vary, and how long it takes doesn't have much to do with how good a pilot you are in the long run.

Glad you enjoy my posts.

[pa42]

sidebar/sideflap on unnecessary R44 training pre-PPL

I failed to address the R44 portion of the curriculum they offer . . . I don't see how you benefit from switching types in mid-training, looks to me like they just want to get more money from you.

If the R44 10 hrs is close to 2 X as expensive as R22, then you're throwing away 20 hours of R22 time that would stand you well at Flight Test time. For what? You're not taking the test in an R44!!

Watch out for smoke and mirrors from their marketing dept. . . .

[Ready2Fly]

I should have mentioned something on the regulations concerning Robinson helicopters in germany: It is not only the hours that you need in the R44 to get a rating but (i think since 1995 in germany) you also have to do an awareness training in it (R22 as well if you want to obtain a rating) to cover especially extensive training of autos, manual control of rotor- and engine rpm without governor, avoidance and detection of low rotorspeed, reestablishing of normal flight conditions and effect of low g condition and appropriate ways 'to get out'. I do not know whether this kind of awareness training is necessary all over the world to obtain a rating for a R22 or R44.

There are three combinations for the PPL(H):

1. Do it all on the R22 and get only a rating for the R22 (including R22 awareness) with your licence.

2. Do a combination of 30 hours R22 and 10 in R44 and you get both ratings (including awareness on both) with your licence.

3. Do it only in the R44 (or even in a turbine which is much too expensive and a waste of money just for the PPL(H) in my opinion) and you obtain the rating with your licence.

Now, the thing is, doing a combination of R22 and R44 is cheaper than doing the PPL(H) just on the R22 and obtaining the rating with the needed awareness on the R44 afterwards. I should have mentioned this in advance because they clearly state the numbers and i am not forced to do the PPL(H) on both types.

You are right, the test flight will not be in the R44 but R22. It is because of the additional costs of the awareness training that i want to go for the combination when doing the PPL(H). Without the awareness training you would only need 5 hours (single engine helicopters with more than 3 seats) for the type rating.

P.S.: I just checked the prices/hour: R22 EUR 330 and R44 EUR 510

[Aladdinsane]

Does anyone not think it strange that on an intro flight an instructor gets a prospective student to try and hover and demo's auto's?????

Two of the most difficult things to get right in the first 30 minutes of being in a helicopter, geez no wonder you were a bit perplexed about it all.

I am suprised no-one has thought that this experience was abnormal for an intro flight.

[Chris Cooper]

I’ve recently started learning to fly in Sydney, Australia. I’m reasonably new to the helicopter world, but I also think it’s a little strange to have been shown an auto as part of a trial intro flight. I’d be interested what other folks TIFs have consisted of...but maybe that’s going off-topic.

Having said that, my TIF consisted of flying straight and level, a few turns, a few climbs and descents. I was in control of each of the controls individually (never all together). Unfortunately this lulled me into a false sense of security, and just as I was beginning to think I was a dab hand at this helicopter flying business, the instructor took us down and let me have a go hovering. I was hoping to be Ok, but I hadn’t quite grasped how important visual cues and perspective were when learning to hover (and equally the delay from control input to control response in an R22…oh, did that cause some fun..). However, the hovering was without the best bit and I started a CPL(H) course five months later.

Ready2Fly: I’m on lesson 14 right now and am enjoying myself immensely – I know you will too. To answer the original questions (what would you consider in terms of the school before signing a contract…etc.), I considered the following: cost, location, what type of machine the school trained in, and what kind of impression the various schools I visited left on me.

I concluded that cost was more or less the same across all 3 schools I went to. Location was quite a limiting factor, but fortunately I had 3 to choose from (all within Sydney). I was happy to learn on the R22 and still have no regrets, and the school I visited was friendly, open and left me with an all round ‘relaxed’ feeling. This latter point was extremely important to me.

Prior to starting, I also had concerns about being taught by various instructors (all of whom were at various levels of flying hours). However, as soon as I started, I found pretty quickly that an advantage of being trained by different instructors was that you got as many different perspectives/criticisms on flying technique. In addition to this, I haven’t noticed any particular difference in ‘quality’, which goes to back up what someone said earlier in this thread that an instructor is an instructor…if you see what I mean. Maybe I'm rambling.

Sorry for the long post…my first to this group and I’m glad to get off the mark…