Robinson Safety Courses
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Yeah - the amount of material I gathered in those few days is enough to keep me chuckling for years!
But the serious outweighed the humourous. Apparently FR is coming to Helitech next week.
Wonder what the Robinson world thinks of the new Pathfinder Insurance requirements in the USA told to us by FR : For R22, any pilot/owner who has an accident after 15th July this year will have a 50% uplift on the premium. No dual controls allowed on demo flights - and no duals at all unless the left seat occupant is rated.
And the owner of Pathfinder Insurance is.........
But the serious outweighed the humourous. Apparently FR is coming to Helitech next week.
Wonder what the Robinson world thinks of the new Pathfinder Insurance requirements in the USA told to us by FR : For R22, any pilot/owner who has an accident after 15th July this year will have a 50% uplift on the premium. No dual controls allowed on demo flights - and no duals at all unless the left seat occupant is rated.
And the owner of Pathfinder Insurance is.........
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Just a bit of FYI...
Pathfinder is owned by Frank Robinson's brother-in-law (Robert Cordes). In fact, Pathfinder Indemnity Company, Ltd. is a British Virgin Islands corporation. It's located in Freeport, Bahamas.
They don't have a website.....the only way to communicate with them is through the mail, fax, or email (so there is always a paper trail.) They only insure Robinson Helicopters, and they are not affiliated with the other Pathfinder (rental car) insurance company.
They don't have a website.....the only way to communicate with them is through the mail, fax, or email (so there is always a paper trail.) They only insure Robinson Helicopters, and they are not affiliated with the other Pathfinder (rental car) insurance company.
hours requirement for R22 Pax / Instruction
I attended this course in Torrance at the same time as headsethair and agree with most all of his comments (that R44 video is a real frightener since the guy has several opportunities to avoid disaster but just doesn't).
Only thing I have to add is that the rules (US at least) concerning passengers and instructing in the R22 are stated in SFAR 73 of title 14 of the Code of Federal Regulations; the figures quoted by Headsethair were shown on the course, but I believe these were presented as insurance company requirements, not legal requirements (in the US at least)?
Flug
Only thing I have to add is that the rules (US at least) concerning passengers and instructing in the R22 are stated in SFAR 73 of title 14 of the Code of Federal Regulations; the figures quoted by Headsethair were shown on the course, but I believe these were presented as insurance company requirements, not legal requirements (in the US at least)?
Flug
Helicopter Pilots Get It Up Quicker
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Seen a video of it and several of the accident videos when doing the SFAR73 training.
Finally got around to booking a course and I m on the Dec 2003 one..
Its worth the money for the flight time if you manage to learn nothing!
PW
Finally got around to booking a course and I m on the Dec 2003 one..
Its worth the money for the flight time if you manage to learn nothing!
PW
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headsethair,
Does the Robinson safety course discuss the cause of past rotor loss accidents? Specifically the one case where the female student had a pocket voice recorder that proved the main rotor rpm was normal at the instant of separation. What was determined to be the cause?
I may take the course if they thoroughly cover the cause and methods of prevention.
Does the Robinson safety course discuss the cause of past rotor loss accidents? Specifically the one case where the female student had a pocket voice recorder that proved the main rotor rpm was normal at the instant of separation. What was determined to be the cause?
I may take the course if they thoroughly cover the cause and methods of prevention.
Iconoclast
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Who or is it what is to blame?
To: slowrotor
No matter what the cause is the blame is always assigned to the pilot.
No matter what the cause is the blame is always assigned to the pilot.
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slowrotor : "Does the Robinson safety course discuss the cause of past rotor loss accidents?"
There's loads of accident stuff - and there was a discussion about the recent rotor loss in Australia. Are you referring to the hub coming off or blade break up ? Mast bumping ?
Pat Cox talks at length about mast bumping - and shows examples of masts that are fractured. There is also a lecture on Hubs - the early hub bearings on R44 have to be changed at 1000 hrs, but the latest go all the way to 2200 hrs. His tip - look for brown dust around the thrust washers on the hub, indicating a bearing problem.
He also discussed R22 blades which need special care in salt air with a barrier of WD40 (or similar) laid down the underside join between the leading edge and the main part of the blade - this will stop corrosion to the aluminium skin. This should be done after each day's flying. (He said they are testing stainless steel skinned blades for R22 - similar to R44 construction - and that they will offer them as a retro fit when they are happy.)
By the way, you can always email Pat Cox at [email protected].
There's loads of accident stuff - and there was a discussion about the recent rotor loss in Australia. Are you referring to the hub coming off or blade break up ? Mast bumping ?
Pat Cox talks at length about mast bumping - and shows examples of masts that are fractured. There is also a lecture on Hubs - the early hub bearings on R44 have to be changed at 1000 hrs, but the latest go all the way to 2200 hrs. His tip - look for brown dust around the thrust washers on the hub, indicating a bearing problem.
He also discussed R22 blades which need special care in salt air with a barrier of WD40 (or similar) laid down the underside join between the leading edge and the main part of the blade - this will stop corrosion to the aluminium skin. This should be done after each day's flying. (He said they are testing stainless steel skinned blades for R22 - similar to R44 construction - and that they will offer them as a retro fit when they are happy.)
By the way, you can always email Pat Cox at [email protected].
Iconoclast
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Use of WD-40
I would strongly warn against using WD-40 on rotor blades. For two reasons:
1) The WD-40 film will attract sand and dust which will result in an enhanced environment for corrosion and possibly effect the blade aerodynamics.
2) The petroleum distillates in the WD-40 can enter faying surfaces and effect the bonding agent causing the bond to break down.
WD-40 is and was developed as a means of displacing water or moisture but in certain applications it is counter productive and can cause problems.
1) The WD-40 film will attract sand and dust which will result in an enhanced environment for corrosion and possibly effect the blade aerodynamics.
2) The petroleum distillates in the WD-40 can enter faying surfaces and effect the bonding agent causing the bond to break down.
WD-40 is and was developed as a means of displacing water or moisture but in certain applications it is counter productive and can cause problems.
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Are the Robinsons' blades all aluminum construction or are they a combination of aluminum and composite components?
The reason for asking is that Kevlar is used in many aerospace composite parts and the fibers absorb moisture, particularly the cut ends.
The reason for asking is that Kevlar is used in many aerospace composite parts and the fibers absorb moisture, particularly the cut ends.
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headsethair,
The accident I referred to above was a complete separation of everthing above the transmission. The entire rotor was found some distance from the hull.
Reading this report shook me up enough to suspend my helo training.
I would have less concern if all the complete rotorhead separations were pilot error, either low G loss of control or low rpm rotor stall.
But this accident was not likely pilot error, so I want to know what the final determination of cause was in this case.
The local R22 instructors have no knowledge of this case and I don't know a good way to get the facts. I thought of contacting Robinson but figured they would be biased.
My guess as to cause would be a freak gust, since an airworthiness directive was issued limiting flight in moderate turbulence.
The accident I referred to above was a complete separation of everthing above the transmission. The entire rotor was found some distance from the hull.
Reading this report shook me up enough to suspend my helo training.
I would have less concern if all the complete rotorhead separations were pilot error, either low G loss of control or low rpm rotor stall.
But this accident was not likely pilot error, so I want to know what the final determination of cause was in this case.
The local R22 instructors have no knowledge of this case and I don't know a good way to get the facts. I thought of contacting Robinson but figured they would be biased.
My guess as to cause would be a freak gust, since an airworthiness directive was issued limiting flight in moderate turbulence.
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Slowrotor:
I participated in the NTSB investigation of the accident to which you refer. To my knowledge no cause has been determined. There is no evidence to support a theory of pilot error as the cause.
I participated in the NTSB investigation of the accident to which you refer. To my knowledge no cause has been determined. There is no evidence to support a theory of pilot error as the cause.
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Robinson Blades and WD40
Mr Zuckerman: The process using WD40 is recommended by Robinson for use only on the R22 blade and only in the manner they proscribe. I would suggest that you don't post on this subject unless you have RHC approval - and I'm sure the manufacturers of WD40 would love to have a word with you.
To answer the Robinson blade construction question - the R22 is aluminum honeycomb with an aluminum skin. There are no composites in an R22 blade.
The 44 is aluminum honeycomb with a stainless steel skin. In the R44 tail rotor there is a small section of composite.
Both types have stainless steel leading edges.
As stated before, they are testing SS blades for R22 and they are also hopeful that the new Raven II blade will eventually become a retro fit for all 44s.
Other than the above, which I gleaned on the course, I'd rather not get drawn in to deeper technical discussions for which I am not qualified. And it is nigh on impossible to get into the deeper issues on a Forum such as this.
Maybe one day we'll all get to meet!
PS: For followers of true English, please read ALUMINIUM! But, now that Bill Gates has convinced the world that Favourites is spelt Favorites, we're losing the plot chaps.
To answer the Robinson blade construction question - the R22 is aluminum honeycomb with an aluminum skin. There are no composites in an R22 blade.
The 44 is aluminum honeycomb with a stainless steel skin. In the R44 tail rotor there is a small section of composite.
Both types have stainless steel leading edges.
As stated before, they are testing SS blades for R22 and they are also hopeful that the new Raven II blade will eventually become a retro fit for all 44s.
Other than the above, which I gleaned on the course, I'd rather not get drawn in to deeper technical discussions for which I am not qualified. And it is nigh on impossible to get into the deeper issues on a Forum such as this.
Maybe one day we'll all get to meet!
PS: For followers of true English, please read ALUMINIUM! But, now that Bill Gates has convinced the world that Favourites is spelt Favorites, we're losing the plot chaps.
Iconoclast
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WD-40
To: headsethair
Sometimes manufacturers recommend products without fully testing them with their minimal research being based on what they do on their car or in the machine shop.
WD-40 was developed by Convair Astronautics to displace water on the skins of Atlas missiles that were exposed to a severe salt-water environment at Vandenberg AFB. I know because at the time I was a techrep on the Atlas based at Vandenberg. The process engineer that developed the product got manufacturing rights and set up Rocket Chemical Company based in San Diego, CA. From the time that WD-40 was placed on the commercial market new uses were found for it other than dispersing moisture. Many people used it as a penetrant while others used it as a lubricant. Very few people used it for what it was designed for. It is the penetrating capability that I was addressing as it really does this very well. While it is penetrating the petroleum distillates will act on any bonding material that is present and cause the chemical bond to fail.
As far as the manufacturers of WD-40 taking exception to my comments I would suggest that they be contacted by Robinson and they should fully explain their application of the product and give them engineering documentation showing where the product is to be used. If they do or did this and WD-40 usage for the specified purpose is approved then I will shut up. As far as my getting approval from Robinson prior to posting I would never have come on this forum if that was the case.
To sum it up I add this WD = Water Dispersal
Mr Zuckerman: The process using WD40 is recommended by Robinson for use only on the R22 blade and only in the manner they proscribe. I would suggest that you don't post on this subject unless you have RHC approval - and I'm sure the manufacturers of WD40 would love to have a word with you.
WD-40 was developed by Convair Astronautics to displace water on the skins of Atlas missiles that were exposed to a severe salt-water environment at Vandenberg AFB. I know because at the time I was a techrep on the Atlas based at Vandenberg. The process engineer that developed the product got manufacturing rights and set up Rocket Chemical Company based in San Diego, CA. From the time that WD-40 was placed on the commercial market new uses were found for it other than dispersing moisture. Many people used it as a penetrant while others used it as a lubricant. Very few people used it for what it was designed for. It is the penetrating capability that I was addressing as it really does this very well. While it is penetrating the petroleum distillates will act on any bonding material that is present and cause the chemical bond to fail.
As far as the manufacturers of WD-40 taking exception to my comments I would suggest that they be contacted by Robinson and they should fully explain their application of the product and give them engineering documentation showing where the product is to be used. If they do or did this and WD-40 usage for the specified purpose is approved then I will shut up. As far as my getting approval from Robinson prior to posting I would never have come on this forum if that was the case.
To sum it up I add this WD = Water Dispersal
Iconoclast
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Use of WD-40 on rotorblades.
To: headsethair
I contacted the WD-40 company and asked the following question: I have a few questions regarding WD-40. Can it be sprayed on helicopter rotorblades? Will the penetrating capabilities combined with the petroleum distillates cause problems on chemically bonded surfaces? Does WD-40 have approval from the FAA for any applications?
Here is their response: the FAA has not approved WD-40 for any use and we don't recommend WD-40 on the rotor blades due to the unknown effects.
I would strongly suggest that Pat Cox reconsider his instructions at the safety school and make it known to his past students to not use WD-40 on the blades or any other part of the helicopter.
If anything happened Robinson could be held liable and if the WD-40 Company were brought into the lawsuit they could also sue Robinson.
Mr Zuckerman: The process using WD40 is recommended by Robinson for use only on the R22 blade and only in the manner they proscribe. I would suggest that you don't post on this subject unless you have RHC approval - and I'm sure the manufacturers of WD40 would love to have a word with you.
Here is their response: the FAA has not approved WD-40 for any use and we don't recommend WD-40 on the rotor blades due to the unknown effects.
I would strongly suggest that Pat Cox reconsider his instructions at the safety school and make it known to his past students to not use WD-40 on the blades or any other part of the helicopter.
If anything happened Robinson could be held liable and if the WD-40 Company were brought into the lawsuit they could also sue Robinson.
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Slowrotor:
I think the accident you and Rich Lee are referring to was the Japanese lady student, am I right? Frank Robinson discussed that one at the course I was on in the mid-90s. They spent thousands of man-hours analysing the tape and the rest of the evidence and never did come up with an answer.
I think you'll find that if you ask questions, they'll give you a straight answer. Worth emailing Cox or Tim Tucker.
I think the accident you and Rich Lee are referring to was the Japanese lady student, am I right? Frank Robinson discussed that one at the course I was on in the mid-90s. They spent thousands of man-hours analysing the tape and the rest of the evidence and never did come up with an answer.
I think you'll find that if you ask questions, they'll give you a straight answer. Worth emailing Cox or Tim Tucker.
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Lu (hey - this is getting personal) : I don't see the point in you taking the time to ask the manufacturer of WD40 "Is it safe to use on rotor blades?"
What type of blades ? What construction ? What materials ? etc. etc.
From your other postings on pprune I'm guessing that you are either an engineer or think you are an engineer.
So why ask such a wide-ranging, non-specific, non-engineering question ?
If you think there's a problem - email your concerns to Pat Cox. But for hell's sake please don't post suppositions and half-truths. Who are you trying to impress ?
If Robinson's engineer can stand in front of a professional pilots' class and recommend a procedure, then we have to accept that he knows what he is saying is correct.
You should get a job.
What type of blades ? What construction ? What materials ? etc. etc.
From your other postings on pprune I'm guessing that you are either an engineer or think you are an engineer.
So why ask such a wide-ranging, non-specific, non-engineering question ?
If you think there's a problem - email your concerns to Pat Cox. But for hell's sake please don't post suppositions and half-truths. Who are you trying to impress ?
If Robinson's engineer can stand in front of a professional pilots' class and recommend a procedure, then we have to accept that he knows what he is saying is correct.
You should get a job.
Iconoclast
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WD-40 argument continues.
To: headsethair
This says it all. The WD-40 Company indicates that the FAA has not approved the use of WD-40 on any aircraft and the WD-40 Company specifically states that they would not want it to be used on rotorblades specifically because of the unknown effects.
I indicated previously that if Robinson were approved to use it as Pat Cox specified then I would shut up. It seems that from what the WD-40 Company indicated Robinson never contacted them for approval to use WD-40 in the manner in which was indicated in the safety course and if they were they would answer in the negative to the request.
Regarding my contacting the WD-40 Company I do this a lot in my work. I am a Reliability, Maintainability, and Systems Safety engineer and I have worked on many major helicopter programs and on commercial and military aircraft as well. If something doesn't look right I will contact the manufacturer which is what I did in this case.
I don't have to contact Robinson to tell them of my findings. I tried that in 1995 and they told me to piss off. You on the other hand as a dedicated user of Robinson products CAN contact them.
Here is their response: the FAA has not approved WD-40 for any use and we don't recommend WD-40 on the rotor blades due to the unknown effects.
I indicated previously that if Robinson were approved to use it as Pat Cox specified then I would shut up. It seems that from what the WD-40 Company indicated Robinson never contacted them for approval to use WD-40 in the manner in which was indicated in the safety course and if they were they would answer in the negative to the request.
Regarding my contacting the WD-40 Company I do this a lot in my work. I am a Reliability, Maintainability, and Systems Safety engineer and I have worked on many major helicopter programs and on commercial and military aircraft as well. If something doesn't look right I will contact the manufacturer which is what I did in this case.
I don't have to contact Robinson to tell them of my findings. I tried that in 1995 and they told me to piss off. You on the other hand as a dedicated user of Robinson products CAN contact them.
Last edited by Lu Zuckerman; 23rd Sep 2003 at 21:20.
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safety course
Rich Lee,
Thanks for your reply. Seems incredible to me that people continue to fly a helicopter that has experienced multiple rotor failures of undetermined cause. I checked on the Robinson website and found that I cannot attend the safety course without a heli pilot certificate. That doesn't make much sense to me. I intend to discover all the neccessary special pilot operating requirements specific to the R22 before I resume flight training in the Robinson.
More likely, I will drive several hours to the Schweizer flight center. The R22 requires 20 hrs before solo by USA regulation and I feel that many hours would not be needed.
Sure would be nice to feel comfortable flying the responsive R22 but the more I read on this site the less likely that becomes.... (recent reports of six out of six blades tested by Australian aviation authority found to have disbonds)
Thanks for your reply. Seems incredible to me that people continue to fly a helicopter that has experienced multiple rotor failures of undetermined cause. I checked on the Robinson website and found that I cannot attend the safety course without a heli pilot certificate. That doesn't make much sense to me. I intend to discover all the neccessary special pilot operating requirements specific to the R22 before I resume flight training in the Robinson.
More likely, I will drive several hours to the Schweizer flight center. The R22 requires 20 hrs before solo by USA regulation and I feel that many hours would not be needed.
Sure would be nice to feel comfortable flying the responsive R22 but the more I read on this site the less likely that becomes.... (recent reports of six out of six blades tested by Australian aviation authority found to have disbonds)