Fed up of Poor FO's
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Fed up of Poor FO's
Is anyone else concerned about the growing trend of poor quality FO's?
Some FO's are joining the Jetset with only 200 hrs total time and I feel in some cases that safety is compromised.
Some FO's are joining the Jetset with only 200 hrs total time and I feel in some cases that safety is compromised.
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Poor quality FO's or poor quality HRs ?
Do u honnestly think experience only makes a good pilot ?
Then u must be reading a lot about safety u claim to worry about ... How many aircraft crashed after experienced captains made the fatal mistake ?
Human errors is behind most accidents regardless of experience. Airlines should pay attention to the personnality and the reliability of a person not necessarily its experience. Don't get me wrong, experience is necessary but it doesn't make u safer ... I'd rather work with a low houred FO who's doing what he's supposed to do (being a pilot) than with a 4000 houred FO thinking he knows it all.
Professionalism my friend
Then u must be reading a lot about safety u claim to worry about ... How many aircraft crashed after experienced captains made the fatal mistake ?
Human errors is behind most accidents regardless of experience. Airlines should pay attention to the personnality and the reliability of a person not necessarily its experience. Don't get me wrong, experience is necessary but it doesn't make u safer ... I'd rather work with a low houred FO who's doing what he's supposed to do (being a pilot) than with a 4000 houred FO thinking he knows it all.
Professionalism my friend
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What you pay (or not) is what you get!
For the last couple of years there might be a big amount of "good" FO's (what's "good" anway?) who simply could not afford to pay for their training, and on the other side, there might have been some with cash but no brain...
NB. I'm sure there is a huge number of poor CMD's as well, especially with regard to Human Resources.
For the last couple of years there might be a big amount of "good" FO's (what's "good" anway?) who simply could not afford to pay for their training, and on the other side, there might have been some with cash but no brain...
NB. I'm sure there is a huge number of poor CMD's as well, especially with regard to Human Resources.
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Generally speaking, the younger (not dry behind the ears) pilot crowd truly does believe that experience in the particular flight deck crew position, makes no difference.
Sadly, they are truly mis-informed.
Yes, 300 hour First Officers can indeed do quite a remarkable job, and show a high level of proficiency, however, it takes both of the following, to make it work properly...
Proper line training,
The dedication of the younger pilot to follow directions.
If any of the aforementioned are missing, they ain't worth a damn, notwithstanding what they might think.
Fortunately, most airlines today are aware of the problems involved, and apply training standards accordingly.
IE: 'know it alls' are sent back for retraining in the sim...or dismissed.
As it should be, absolutely.
Sadly, they are truly mis-informed.
Yes, 300 hour First Officers can indeed do quite a remarkable job, and show a high level of proficiency, however, it takes both of the following, to make it work properly...
Proper line training,
The dedication of the younger pilot to follow directions.
If any of the aforementioned are missing, they ain't worth a damn, notwithstanding what they might think.
Fortunately, most airlines today are aware of the problems involved, and apply training standards accordingly.
IE: 'know it alls' are sent back for retraining in the sim...or dismissed.
As it should be, absolutely.
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If FOs are inexperienced but able to handle the aircraft, teach them. They are still new to the job and, once they are capable in their FO duties, should be seen as UT Captains. Everyone in the left hand seat is capable of providing some experience to them.
If they are not capable of handling the aircraft report the fact back up the training chain.
If anyone feels that safety is being compromised, for whatever reason, it would be better if they approached their Chief Pilot rather than whinge on a forum.
If they are not capable of handling the aircraft report the fact back up the training chain.
If anyone feels that safety is being compromised, for whatever reason, it would be better if they approached their Chief Pilot rather than whinge on a forum.
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Generally I don't think that total hours should be taken as a measure to judge the quality of FOs. Sure, there are some doing an excellent job, while others... -well you know what I mean.
In this case I totally agree with 411A: The key to success are
and
However, while flying for a different airline for a couple of months during 2005, I saw many poor quality CP (with lots of hours), only capable to fly the aircraft, but not having the slightest clue about A/C systems and performance basics.
With other words - poor airmen can be found in both cockpit seats - right and left.
By the way - something else I read concerning flight experience (FO and CPT) and found very interesting:
In this case I totally agree with 411A: The key to success are
Proper line training
The dedication of the younger pilot to follow directions.
With other words - poor airmen can be found in both cockpit seats - right and left.
By the way - something else I read concerning flight experience (FO and CPT) and found very interesting:
In a landmark study, Flight Experience and the Likelihood of U.S. Navy Aircraft Mishaps (1992), reasearchers found that "pilots with less than 500 flight hours in model (of aircraft) were at significantly greater ristk for pilot error mishap factors". Interestingly, the study found no correlation between total flight hours and accident rates, indicating that aviators transitioning to new aircraft are at increased risk as well as pilots who are checking out in their first aircraft.
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All my co-pilots are excellent. They keep me safe and buy me lots of beer - what else can a Captain wish for? Perhaps the problem is you - poor recollection of the time when you had confidence but no experience?
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Thanks to all who consider low hour F/O's with proper attitude and personality worthy to fly large aircraft even at low hours.
And yes I know that I don't know. I can learn something every flight.
My 1 cent of experience after 1 1/2 years of Turboprop flying. Yes I support that experience makes a difference. Yes experience helps in the flight deck.
But how are we supposed to get experience when nobody would hire unexperienced F/O's? We can't.
It might be good practice to require more hours in commercial aviation than the MNM around 200 hours on SEP/MEP but then these hours should be accessible. But where to get them in times like these where you have to pay to fly or are just lucky to fly for free?
On the other hand what are these magical 1500 hours single pilot worth in a 737?
In my opinion? The same as a couple hundred hours flying on SEP and MEP. After some 250 hours in SEP's in most "normal" environments you have seen it. It may simply add nothing valuable to what you really need to know in JAR/FAR 125 ops. Does it help in other aspects? Yes sure as pointed out in "justathougt's" post on decision making and experience further down. Don't get me wrong. I have in mind the hours like sitting next to a student pilot in endless circuit trainings and not having seen a single major problem like icing combined with a boots failure in ones life.
Just - why would renown companies consider setting up their training for the medium jets for ab-initio pilots to enter the line at 250+ hours? Why would they even think it better to hire low hour cadets from their own flight schools then hiring 2'000 hour SP's?
Does training and strict attitude testing make the difference?
Important to me is to make sure I learn. I try to be open minded all the time. Try not to make the same mistake more than twice. Listen and look what all the other pilots do (yes not just the CAPT next to me). And try to make decisions based on my experience, then cross-checking with my CAPT. I hope this sheds some light on my attitude to this job.
I will reconsider this post when passing 1'500 hours and maybe 5'000 hours.
The value of proper basic, type rating and line training? Invaluable.
And this is where we can really learn and where the dangers are if not properly done.
And yes I know that I don't know. I can learn something every flight.
My 1 cent of experience after 1 1/2 years of Turboprop flying. Yes I support that experience makes a difference. Yes experience helps in the flight deck.
But how are we supposed to get experience when nobody would hire unexperienced F/O's? We can't.
It might be good practice to require more hours in commercial aviation than the MNM around 200 hours on SEP/MEP but then these hours should be accessible. But where to get them in times like these where you have to pay to fly or are just lucky to fly for free?
On the other hand what are these magical 1500 hours single pilot worth in a 737?
In my opinion? The same as a couple hundred hours flying on SEP and MEP. After some 250 hours in SEP's in most "normal" environments you have seen it. It may simply add nothing valuable to what you really need to know in JAR/FAR 125 ops. Does it help in other aspects? Yes sure as pointed out in "justathougt's" post on decision making and experience further down. Don't get me wrong. I have in mind the hours like sitting next to a student pilot in endless circuit trainings and not having seen a single major problem like icing combined with a boots failure in ones life.
Just - why would renown companies consider setting up their training for the medium jets for ab-initio pilots to enter the line at 250+ hours? Why would they even think it better to hire low hour cadets from their own flight schools then hiring 2'000 hour SP's?
Does training and strict attitude testing make the difference?
Important to me is to make sure I learn. I try to be open minded all the time. Try not to make the same mistake more than twice. Listen and look what all the other pilots do (yes not just the CAPT next to me). And try to make decisions based on my experience, then cross-checking with my CAPT. I hope this sheds some light on my attitude to this job.
I will reconsider this post when passing 1'500 hours and maybe 5'000 hours.
The value of proper basic, type rating and line training? Invaluable.
And this is where we can really learn and where the dangers are if not properly done.
Last edited by error_401; 2nd Feb 2006 at 23:51.
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What is interesting is that as our company fly us Captains in the right seat quite a lot, we see our peers in a different light !
It is interesting to fly with guys who F/O's have - er - mentioned in passing should we say, then find out that the F/O's are completely correct, hey, I may be one myself !.
I guess I am old fashioned here, but I still believe that zero to hero training and then into the right seat of a jet is wrong. F/O's should do at least a year in a piston or turboprop environment, the workload is high, the flying is demanding, the turnrounds are quick, but above all it is fun flying. The pilots I fly with who have been this route say they wouldn't have miseed it for anything. Sadly some of the others say they would not have started if they thought they would have to fly turboprops before the shiny jets.
The business is changing, you can't self improve anymore, you have to pay top dollar for your licence, then probably more dollar for a type rating - where do the competent, keen but financially challenged pilots go ? The circle has turned and thanks to the CAA we are now back to the days of rich kids and ex Balloon Corps pilots. There are some exceptions, I fly with a few and their debts and determination are HUGE !
It is interesting to fly with guys who F/O's have - er - mentioned in passing should we say, then find out that the F/O's are completely correct, hey, I may be one myself !.
I guess I am old fashioned here, but I still believe that zero to hero training and then into the right seat of a jet is wrong. F/O's should do at least a year in a piston or turboprop environment, the workload is high, the flying is demanding, the turnrounds are quick, but above all it is fun flying. The pilots I fly with who have been this route say they wouldn't have miseed it for anything. Sadly some of the others say they would not have started if they thought they would have to fly turboprops before the shiny jets.
The business is changing, you can't self improve anymore, you have to pay top dollar for your licence, then probably more dollar for a type rating - where do the competent, keen but financially challenged pilots go ? The circle has turned and thanks to the CAA we are now back to the days of rich kids and ex Balloon Corps pilots. There are some exceptions, I fly with a few and their debts and determination are HUGE !
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From where I sit, I am impressed with quality of F/O's that my company train and put online. But what has flying a jet got to do with it? These guys (and I'd suggest the majority of all pilots) will find a jet easier to fly than a turbo prop - probably because they are. The main difference appears to the be the miserable old git in the RHS who recons that because he had to fly a turboprop, everyone else should. In addition, because they guy is new, he is now going to have do some work because the experienced F/O's he normally flew with used to do it all.
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411A,
Your absolutely right with your observation. However, i have been a low timer myself and it strikes me how uncooperative some of the older (experienced) pilots can be. When you ask some of them a question about the operation of the aircraft hte only answer they can come up with is: "I am not being paid to do training so ask a training captain". Which is a really sad reply. Their experience is very valued by everybody so please make an effort to transfer your knowledge (experience) to the less experienced pilots.
And offcourse these are the people who complain the most about the fact of having 200 hours guys sitting in the right hand seat of a jet.
Your absolutely right with your observation. However, i have been a low timer myself and it strikes me how uncooperative some of the older (experienced) pilots can be. When you ask some of them a question about the operation of the aircraft hte only answer they can come up with is: "I am not being paid to do training so ask a training captain". Which is a really sad reply. Their experience is very valued by everybody so please make an effort to transfer your knowledge (experience) to the less experienced pilots.
And offcourse these are the people who complain the most about the fact of having 200 hours guys sitting in the right hand seat of a jet.
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The real problem is that the expectations of new pilots has changed,through no fault of there own they can now get the ticket and then get a jet job,I wish it was so when I was 20 but then it ment 1000 hours instructing,1100 hours air taxi and then three years rhs turbo prop.
Pilots did do 200 hours to jet but this was company funded and from day one they were exposed to the company sops etc.
So here is the problem,how do I produce the required standard of fo in 30 to 40 line sectors?
I am open to ideas but the best I have come up with so far is to produce a pilot who knows and sticks to sops and knows where to look in the part A and B.
Now put that FO with a line capt who wants to delay flap or gear extension for any number of sound reasons not stated in the part A or B and you end up with a possible break down in CRM,i.e FO thinks the capt is a cowboy and does not know his sops, capt thinks the fo should go ****.
I guess none of this really helps you new guys ,but might help you to understand why you see posts like the one at the start of this thread
Pilots did do 200 hours to jet but this was company funded and from day one they were exposed to the company sops etc.
So here is the problem,how do I produce the required standard of fo in 30 to 40 line sectors?
I am open to ideas but the best I have come up with so far is to produce a pilot who knows and sticks to sops and knows where to look in the part A and B.
Now put that FO with a line capt who wants to delay flap or gear extension for any number of sound reasons not stated in the part A or B and you end up with a possible break down in CRM,i.e FO thinks the capt is a cowboy and does not know his sops, capt thinks the fo should go ****.
I guess none of this really helps you new guys ,but might help you to understand why you see posts like the one at the start of this thread
Last edited by Jetdriver; 23rd Jan 2006 at 08:41.
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it works both ways old bean, i have flown with sub-standard captains, who for example, drift from the sop's and it turns into a gang ****. Now i am not to say which is the correct path up the ladder but i do feel that there should eb a natural progression rather than 200 hours and bang right seat medium jet. For the record i instructed for many years, loved it hated it but taught myself heaps that some young-uns like myself will never know, unfortunately i missed flying turbo-props so far and it is a huge regret i feel i have missed a part of aviation completely.
Any way it is my opnion that it is purely down to the natural ability of the person in question, some people are shown it once and they crack it straight away (me) and some people need to be shown multiple times (not me).
When i used to teach i found patience, honesty and understanding of the students ability was all that was required.
Any way it is my opnion that it is purely down to the natural ability of the person in question, some people are shown it once and they crack it straight away (me) and some people need to be shown multiple times (not me).
When i used to teach i found patience, honesty and understanding of the students ability was all that was required.
Last edited by Jetdriver; 24th Jan 2006 at 19:49.
Grandpa Aerotart
After latest 250 hours in SEP's you have seen it. It will simply add nothing valuable to what you really need to know in JAR/FAR 125 ops.
ZbV
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F/O's
It is not just the hours that count but the attitude of the individual. There are people around that have decided that they have made it and now know it all. These people refuse to accept information or learn more from their peers. I find them in both seats in a 2 crew airplane.
What really get's me is that flying with the same F/O over 10 or so sectors this particular individual does not learn from his/her mistakes and repeat them on every flight, even when promted. This is in the "I've made it, I am flying jet's and I know it all" Category.
I have flown with low time F/O's and with guys that have had thousands of hours on the airplane. There is nothing that can replace experience, there are things that cannot be though on a ATPL course in Oxford, regardless what a low time pilot might think.
Just my 10 cents worth before I go and fly with one of the better F/O's I have ever had the privilege to fly with.
JJ
What really get's me is that flying with the same F/O over 10 or so sectors this particular individual does not learn from his/her mistakes and repeat them on every flight, even when promted. This is in the "I've made it, I am flying jet's and I know it all" Category.
I have flown with low time F/O's and with guys that have had thousands of hours on the airplane. There is nothing that can replace experience, there are things that cannot be though on a ATPL course in Oxford, regardless what a low time pilot might think.
Just my 10 cents worth before I go and fly with one of the better F/O's I have ever had the privilege to fly with.
JJ
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Err401 you are a long long way off the mark my friend.
Experience makes a huge difference.
Most of the potential incidents can be avoided if you can see them coming, if you sense the holes starting to line up so to speak, and act a fraction more conservitively than you would otherwise.
If you have done 1500hrs of single pilot charter work in a light twin or similar you are going to bring an additional level of knowledge/wariness/ability (read experience) to the flight deck. You will also be more capable of making decisions, that might be hard for you to understand at 800 hrs but you are totally responsable for your decisions when single pilot and invariably you make mistakes that you will never forget because you had to wear the consequenses. Every now and then it is neccessary to query a captains decision and it is a lot easier to do if you are armed with that experience. (a good captain will make it easier by asking if you are happy with something first, and then you can say yes or no).
I believe that if you print off a copy of this thread and bring it out again when you have 5000hrs, you will cringe when you read your post. I hope you do, otherwise it suggests to me that your attitude needs re-aligning.
Experience makes a huge difference.
Most of the potential incidents can be avoided if you can see them coming, if you sense the holes starting to line up so to speak, and act a fraction more conservitively than you would otherwise.
If you have done 1500hrs of single pilot charter work in a light twin or similar you are going to bring an additional level of knowledge/wariness/ability (read experience) to the flight deck. You will also be more capable of making decisions, that might be hard for you to understand at 800 hrs but you are totally responsable for your decisions when single pilot and invariably you make mistakes that you will never forget because you had to wear the consequenses. Every now and then it is neccessary to query a captains decision and it is a lot easier to do if you are armed with that experience. (a good captain will make it easier by asking if you are happy with something first, and then you can say yes or no).
I believe that if you print off a copy of this thread and bring it out again when you have 5000hrs, you will cringe when you read your post. I hope you do, otherwise it suggests to me that your attitude needs re-aligning.
Am I the only one that thinks it's a little fishy that "NgrWagon" has only just registered, starting this thread was his first post (posing a controversial question), and hasn't posted since, or elaborated on his concerns??