Type Rating - which type, where, why pay etc?
 

This is from a reply I posted in R&N, but it is more relevant here. Hope it helps.

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For anyone who is interested, in my time as a trainer, I have found the following to be generally true.

Some people will fail the sim check. This is usually down to lack of currency in general flying practice, or lack of I/F proficiency. It can usually be remedied by spending some time in a jet-type sim doing some hard IFR. If you are going for a turboprop sim check, the jet sim is a good idea because most sim checks seem to be done on jet sims. BTW, you CANNOT overprepare for a sim check when it comes to knowing ATC procedure, Rules of the Air, etc. Simple little things like the appropriate cruising level for a particular altitude mess a lot of folk up.

Some fail the ARB. This is nearly unheard of, especially if CBT is being used. Still, if you know you are prone to exam problems, try and get the books early and in particular learn ALL the limitations off by heart, ESPECIALLY engine limitations.

Some fail the type training in the sim. This is usually a judgement call on the part of the training dept. Anyone can be taught to do anything, given enough time and money. However, training departments have very finite training budgets, so if they think you will not meet the required standard in the allowable time frame, you will probably be chopped. Occasionally people will be allowed a few extra hours in the sim if it is thought that they are "nearly there". This of course depends on sim bookings, and may not be possible on a heavily-used sim. Some training depts may allow you to continue if you pay for the additional training, but it's rare. The only course of action available to you is to stay focused and calm. Try not to let the pressures of the situation get to you... I realise that is nearly impossible to do, but try anyway. I have seen several colleagues fail sim courses over the years, usually because once they realised that things were not going well, they let the pressures of worrying about their continued career and employment get to them, and their performance deteriorated as a result. In a sense, the failed themselves. I say that with no pride at all, it is a horrible thing to experience, or to watch from the other seat. To reiterate... try and stay focused and calm, keep studying, practice IF on your computer or whatever, don't spend time in the bar. It's only for a few days!

Once you are into line training, the worst is most definitely behind you. As I mentioned earlier, what we look for in line training is your ability to fly safely and accurately in a normal IFR environment. You will normally have an autopilot to help you and no deliberate failures. The abilities you need are good situational awareness, good CRM, and good decision-making. As line training is revenue flying, it is the phase of training where the most time can be allowed to reach the required standard. People who get chopped here are normally either up against a hostile trainer (not that common these days), or are having major problems with the areas mentioned above. Typical symptoms include inability to plan descents properly, poor execution of SIDs or STARs, poor fuel planning, consistently bad landings, poor situational awareness, poor procedural knowledge, poor aircraft knowledge. In any event, this is the phase where the most leeway is usually allowed... I only ever failed people who were a very, very long way from reaching the standard, and who were showing no signs of improvement. The remedy is to keep studying, run the flights through in your mind and identify all the areas causing you trouble, and tell your trainer exactly what you are having trouble with. Concentrate on getting those bits right. Make it abundantly clear that you are working hard and are going for it.

If you are having trouble, TELL YOUR TRAINER. Help them to help you.

Maxfli is absolutely right... a failure is a reflection on the training dept as well as the candidate. It is also a failure on the part of the selection board. Some training depts are enlightened and see it that way, some don't. And finally, it is very, very expensive for a company to fail someone in line training.

I hope that helps some of you who are soon to start courses.

Another tip is to clear your life for the entire period of your sim training and groundschool. If you allow yourself to get bogged down in domestic stuff or distracted with things that aren't THAT important, you will not do so well in the sim.
If you think it would be better for you to be away from home for the duration, in a hotel or B+B, then book it.
You may think it is not a problem, you won't let it become a distraction, but people do and then their performance is not so good.
You really need to commit yourself 110%.

Thanks Raw Data,

All insights like yours, and www's essay on psychometric testing, are very useful, as they give us a picture of 'where the questioner/interviewer/training Captain, is coming from.
i.e; Do they expect us to be accurate to one decimal place; Do they want us to remember all the checklists perfectly from day one; or Do they want to know if we can tell good jokes, and have a firm handshake ?.

I sweated blood on my IR because towards the end of the test, the entire episode of leaving my previous job, starting a business, saving up the money for the CAP 509, convincing my wife, paying the mortgage etc, etc built up in my mind. I started worrying about all this, and what I would do if I failed the IR, and managed to b*gger up the NDB Hold.

Nailed it on the re-take thank goodness !

Thanks again for the info.

[This message has been edited by Uplinker (edited 02 December 1999).]

Raw Data
What are your chance to find an another job
when you have been chopped in your line training.

Jofly, see what has been said in the thread "Life after the Chop" over on Rumours and News. It can be done, but it is difficult. Perseverance is the key!

Who Still Offers Type Ratings
 

Hi all,

I know there has been a lot of threads about the value of type ratings...should you do one or not, what employers expect etc.

I had heard that a number of places that used to offer them have stopped - and only those employed by an airline would have access to do one.

How true is this?
Anyone know of a provider that still offers a type rating to Joe Public?

All replies gratefully received...even the sarky ones!

:)

There is a list of all companies that offer
type ratings at the bottom of:
http://www.srg.caa.co.uk/documents/s...provedftos.pdf

Whether they offer them to Joe Public or not I don't know but I suspect that money talks.

I have been told that an average cost of a Turbo prop type rating is ~£10k. This would appear to be a lot for what probably amounts to a few hours in a sim. I would be interested if anyone knows different.

Type ratings.....
 

Ok, my fellow Ppruners, I know the basics, but I'd like a bit more info namely on:

- Bit more detail on what the actually are
- Whats involved
- How much does it cost
- How long does it take, and
- Where you go about doing them.

Thanks you crazy bunch.

Hello Winkie...

In a nutshell

1. 2-4 weeks of training including classroom and sim.
2. 20-40 hours of simulator training.
3.Between 5000 USD to 50000 USD depending on the type and place where you do the training.
USA seems to be by far the most affordable.
4. Flightsafety, Aeroservice, PanAm, STI,HPA to name a few schools in US are in business.
Also quite a few operators will offer their aircraft, such as Citation, Short or Lears for training where the typerating is obtained in the airplane and not in Simulator.

A type course could be as follows:

Days 1-9 Classroom training
Days 9-13 Simulator training
Day 13 Oral Examination
Day 14 Simulator check
And if required Day 15 aircraft check... Three bounces.

JJ

Type ratings
 

I'm worried. I'm going to fly for a living and of that there is no doubt. But there seems to be a lot of negativaty as far as jobs are concernced. I'm sure a lot of Wannabes share the same thoughts.

So..I'm thinking of getting a type rating after I graduate from OATS. I know this means I'm going to have part with a **** load of cash, but if it boosts my chances of getting a job massivly, then why not? I can't imagine doing any other Job in the world, I'm too familiar of reading how desparate some Wannabes become it's quite worrying.

How much is a type rating for a 737?
Where can I do such a course?
Do people think I'm stupid for even contemplating this? (rhetorical question).

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Jesus, this bogy's all over me...........

[This message has been edited by bottle2throttle (edited 03 April 2001).]

type rating £ for a 737 I have no idea....but do you really want to do that? It still wont gaurantee you a job.

Why not add an FI rating?

My advise -others may disagree - is forget the typr rating and spend money building more hours, preferably multi time (in the States where it's cheap!). An employer will think much better of you with more than the minimum hours and valuable multi-time, as any decent employer will put you through a typr-rating program themselves so that thay can also tach you the company SOP's at the same time. Don't dispair from other Wannabes - the job is out there if you want it enough!

There are jobs around, you just cannot afford to be choosy and when you do get that first interview, make sure you nail it!

Everyone I asked about type ratings said that it is worth little or nothing without any time on type! I agree with seadog, get more hours before a type rating. I have a mate who got nowhere post ab-initio, got 50 more hours wrote back and was offered an interview. A very small difference in the grand scheme of things.

Good luck!

Type Rating costs
 

Does anyone know how much a Gulfstream III type rating would cost?
And, where you can do it?

This would be a first jet rating for a new CPL with no previous jet time.

Call Flight Safety or Gulfstream. Previous experience is not essential.

You can also try SimuFlite, they're the leading biz jet training org.
www.simuflite.com

Type rating - Paying for it. Where, who, and why?
 

Hi all,

Would really appreciate it if someone can let me know, where in Europe, Ireland or the UK if possible, you can do a B737 (-200 or -800) and Airbus (A320)type rating?

Obviously would only consider doing one of them in a good few years when I hope to have all the necessary hrs,liscenses, etc.

How much would each cost, £20000+ ? What are the requirements to such ratings, etc? How long is each course?

Iam just trying to get an overall picture of how much money is going to be needed to do all flight training, as well as a possible type rating, if I am not succesful with any sponsorship.

Any info about them would be really appreciated. BTW I have looked at older posts about it, and just hoping for any up to date info now.

Thanks,
All the best,

Turbsy
Ireland

[This message has been edited by Turbsy (edited 16 June 2001).]

Turbsy,

Don't do it ...... ask Hamrah & WWW about it. At the seminars the last week it was pointed out that these ratings will not give you an advantage when applying. No matter whether or not you've got the rating the airline will still have to put you through their own training. Another thing is that shoudl you put yourself through the ATPL training the likelyhood of you flying the aircraft your rated on in your first job is ...... well not good, particulary if its a jet. Don't set your sights on a jet job as your first job. I'm not saying that you'll never get a jet job as your first job but .....

If you do a type rating it could work out for you but it is a huge gamble to take. The other question is after you've forked out xxxxxx k for your frozen ATPL will you want to shell out another 20k on a type rating.

I don't want to put a downer on it but suggest you look into it in more detail and have a chat with one of the mods.

Good luck

Autofly

Thanks for that autofly,

Iam asking about that because all I see advertised is ATPL, 500hrs+, Type rated on this and that, etc, etc.

I really would like to get a job as a pilot in Ryanair, and was kinding of thinkin well if I am type rated in a B737 that could be a huge advantage. The cost is without doubt very large, but your right, even then I stil mightn't get into the airline.

Does anyone know what the trend seems to be with most pilots now in Ryanair, e.g did most of them become flying instructors first to build up the hrs and then they applied to the company?

Cheers,

Turbsy

GECAT offers type ratings for 737 and A320s for self-sponsored pilots at their Gatwick training centre. Cost is GBP 13,000 + you have to spend another 1500-3000 for the base training --- which for pilots with less than 1500 hours is 6 T&Gs (I think).

Ecstatic about a Type Rating!
 

Today is the day, after 4 long years, where I have earned a Type Rating. Took a long time to get here.
The Type Rating involved 2 weeks Ground School (CBT), 2 weeks Simulator and 2 days circuit training. Now I have a Type Rating on a Fokker 50.

It's such a great feeling that I feel the need to shout it out to everyone. Sorry!

Hi there
Pat yourself on the back and then,maybe you could telling the unknowing exactly what is involved in a Type Rating.
regards
TDD

well done ,,I was quite happy about a type rating on a be76...have you got yr rating through klm or did you pay for it yourself..?

Turbsy: Listen to Autofly's good advice. Don't waste your money. Most airlines will look at a self bought type rating unfavorably especially if you don't have stick time in the aircraft after the rating.

With the very minimum requirements I wouldn't bet the farm on getting hired with 500 hours and a 737 type with no time behind the wheel. There's just too much competition around. Unless you happen to be the boss's son or something.

Chip away at it one step at a time. Good Luck.

I agree. Be very wary about paying for a jet type rating; when Ryanair ask for type-rated pilots, they're after people who've done useful work on an aircraft type after an airline's comprehensive line training. For instance, Ryanair are very happy to take Easyjet/BA/bmi/Virgin Express pilots with only a few hours (relatively) because they have that training and have had another airline's training system take the risk of failure - something which Ryanair doesn't want to do. A paid-for type rating will give you the ground school, ARB exam, and simulator time, and a base training trip, all for an exorbitant amount of money, yet the airlines you approach with this piece of paper will laugh in your face. Harsh, but true. Sorry.

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Scroggs
Wannabes Forum Moderator
[email protected]

I think Scroggs' view is a little over the top. A type rating does indicate to the airline that you at least have the intellect/capability to get through a course that they are going to have to bet £30K that you can do. I think the more important consideration is Autofly's point that as soon as you get your 737 rating, you will get picked up by someone flying 320s or Emb 145s. Is it wasted money? Its your call.

Thanks to all of you for your opinions and advice, very helpful indeed.

I think the best thing to do is to probably forget about a particular kind of rating (at least for the moment anyway) and focus more so on building those hrs up and seeking some sort of employment in the industry. Hopefully then the right job will come along at some stage.

Thanks to all of you again for your replys,
All the best,

Turbsy

Don`t do it mate,Say for instance you did a type rating on a 737 for instance.First you will still have no useful experience on type.Then you start sending out CV`s.What if your prospective employer operates Turbo Props?What is that telling them.If you end up with any money left at the end of your training,use it to keep current or buy some twin time.

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GET THE BLOODY NOSE DOWN!

Great news Jetheat! Do let us know what it's like on the line!

A7E makes a valid point, but I stand by what I say, even if it come over a little over-dramatically. Airlines like to minimise their training risks, and someone who has experience of a particular type with another line presents the lowest risk. If you do one of these type rating courses you've not established sufficient credibility to be regarded as a low risk, but you have spent a lot of money! And, as others have said, your first job may be on something else entirely! I'd avoid them for now. Later in your career, when you have a couple thousand hours on the line, a paid-for type rating may well increase your employability, but I'd suggest not before your first job.

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Scroggs
Wannabes Forum Moderator
[email protected]

No argument from me on that sage advice Scroggs.

Thats great news Jetheat, Congratulations!

Is this with KLM Cityhopper? They fly their Fokker 50's over to here, so i might see you some day :)

Unfortunetely they are replaced next year with Fokker 70's http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/frown.gif

Regards, Dan

Turbsy, most of the airlines arent interested in 250 hr cpl's yet, instead of spending £13,000 on a type rating spend £5000 on an instructors rating and spend a year building experience (and getting the sh?t scared out of you by students trying to pull the mixture to ICO instead of carb heat cold on short finals)once you've got 800 -1000 hrs then start sending your cv's to airlines, the chances are that you'll get a job soon after.

Most of you guys are correct. A low timer with a type rating and no hours in the air stands no chance in getting a credible jet job. However, there are places (Yugoslavia, Czech Republic etc) where you can do a type rating for a reasonable amount of money and walk away with a considerable portion of hours on type.
I am going to do my 737-300 type rating with Yugoslav Airlines for about USD16,000. The training would include 190 hours of ground school, 18 hours in a FBS, 18 hours in a FFS, 2 hours of base training and 50 hours of line training as a first officer on their RPT routes. More hours of line training can be purchased at USD45 per hour.
Therefore if you are prepared to spend USD20,500 you can end up with an internationaly accepted type rating and 100+ hours on RPT as a first officer.

Apart from agreeing with everything Autofly and Scroggs says, another worrying aspect about individuals paying for type rating is the potential trend in the industry that it could lead to. An ATPL is very expensive, just imagine if all airlines required ATPL plus self funded type rating!!!! It is already potentially financially crippling.

Also re Yuglosav Airlines, this might be me getting it totally wrong, but paying to work for an airline seems like one massive con. Ok u might get a type rating relatively cheaply and with hours on type, but why should ATPL qualified pilots pay to work??? And at the end of the day after paying to work for such airlines it doesn't necessarily mean that you will get a wage paying job afterwards.

Sagey

[This message has been edited by Sagey (edited 17 June 2001).]

Sagey,
I may have to clarify the facts from my previous post. The Yugoslav Air law stipulates that in order to get a valid type rating a candidate must complete at least 50 hours of line training on RPT routes in the aircraft for which the rating is sought. For example they do not accept an American type rating with zero time on it.
Furthermore, another rule says that if you are not a company employee and the line training is conducted the company must make sure that their F/O is present on board ie. in the jump seat.
So the USD45 you pay only serves to cover the cost of the company's F/O, who is on duty even though not logging any hours. I think that this is a very cheap option of time building. Put it this way, people do the same in the USA when hiring a twin in order to gain the hours.

Didnt think that it would be allowed under JAR-OPS anymore.

Anyway it doesnt really say anything about your abilities, as the institution that you have paid, most likely would let you pass.

I did the Type Rating with KLM uk and so I will be based in Leeds. Moving there soon. Just awaiting my first Line Training flight - may take a couple of weeks.

I think the Type rating is not hard, its just a lot of info to take in within 4 weeks. It's a steep learning curve. From knowing nothing to knowing all the systems and all the SOPs within a month seems daunting but is manageable.

Anyhow, I'm looking forward to flying the Line!

Thanks to all of you again for your advice.
I see now it really is best to build the hrs up first before even considering it.

I hope to get a job in Ireland as a Flight Instructor and wouldn't mind taking another part-time job as well to be able to make a living.

I keep on hearing about getting a job as flying with a small air taxi service, etc, but where are such jobs advertised?

I've never seen anything like that published in the newspapers here in Ireland. Would it be down to who you know and the talk from within your local flying club as to when such jobs are available.

My biggest concern is without doubt how to build the hrs up once I finally get my ATPL and IR.

Cheers,
Turbsy

Stealth.

Email me at [email protected]

JJ