I totally agree with you. I'm in the same position than "use the rudders". I was on "c" but now I'm thinking to take a SSTR.

Definitely option C. I know plenty of people who have secured jobs without having to pay for a type rating, some straight out of training, others after 2-3 years of instructing.

What you have to realise is that each person that pays for their own rating is destroying the industry a tiny bit more for the people who come along after them. I know that there's very much a 'look out for number 1' ethos among potential pilots. Unfortunately the fact that those who went before us held this attitude has screwed it up for us now,

TB

C.

Token Bird is right - we are only having this discussion because earlier wannabes have been naive and/or desperate enough to stump up for their own TR. And if airlines are given the chance to pass £20k of training costs back to the applicant, it's hardly surprising if it sets a dangerous precedent.

What next - paying for your own uniform? medicals? drinking water? Oh, hang on - that already happens. I wonder why . . . :rolleyes:

Got to be C.

If the company is worth working for they will pay for a type rating, and if they won't....well enough said!

Good luck to those willing to pay to go to work though....it's just not for me.

Chinchilla.

Has instructing now began to bore you or do you find the money difficult hence your possible decision to splash out? I can envisage a time (very soon) where FI's will earn more than junior jet FO's.
Totally agree.

VFE.

PS: G SXTY - Long time no see, how are you these days?

Without wanting to light blue touch paper, in our case the preference of employing crews with a TR is a timescale issue, not a financial one. The time it takes to type rate a crew member is often longer than a crews notice period. The trend at the entry level crew market is to bugger off with very little notice when one of the big boys offers our crews jobs. We had one situation a while back when the crew was offered a job on a Sunday if he could start 8 days later. For us we pay more to a TR'd crew, so there is little financial advantage, it's more about keeping continuity of crewing.

Phil

Ladies & Gents
 

I'm currently employed and when I was looking for that first job did consider paying for a TR.

I felt that having completed my ATPL with good grades, hour built, sent off CV's plus making contacts etc etc; I wasn't getting any breaks............... I was desperate, so I was prepared to take a gamble and pay for a TR (737). As it happened I got a couple of interviews and subsequent job. Friends of mine who did pay for TR did actually get jobs.

BUT....... Also friends who didn't pay for TR also got jobs......:D

My answer to the original question is.......... as the market is so good at the moment I would definitely NOT pay for a TR. Good companies will bond new pilots and I think that is fair as it is up front and the descision is with the new recruit.

It's easy for me to preach as my first 2 companies bonded me but I honestly feel that at the moment, if you hold out, you'll get that first job without being screwed for the cost of TR.

Good luck to all the Wannabes:ok:

Well said, Phil.
 

The problem is that, naturally, there is a huge difference between the value placed on (read: employability of) a low-houred fATPL and someone with 500 jet time. Common sense dictates that making a move after a year or so is the smart career choice.

I paid for a bizjet TR once I was fairly sure a job would follow. I figured that I didn't want to be unfair to my employer if I chose to split within a year or two. As it turns out, I'm pretty pleased with where I am and will be staying for quite a while. Because they seem to value me and my experience, my company are talking about moving me onto another Type (yes, it's bigger, faster, has more buttons, etc, etc!) at their expense. Everyone's happy ever after!

And for all those of you blaming people for paying for a TR, perhaps you should consider them the symptom, not the illness? Do you have similar issues with doctors who invest 7yrs of their life up front and leave med school way in debt?

As far as self-funded TRs are concerned, no one really wants to a) take the risk or b) so called "ruin" the industry, but if you've good reason to believe that it will secure you a particular job then it must be an option, more so if you're a certain age and need to crack on with it all.

The Wings

I can understand guys who are pushing 40, and have been struggling for years to find an airline job doing it but those who probably go into their training with a view to self funding a TR require a word methinks. It is a shame we're all not more united on this but I guess that same self(ish) interest got us all into the game in the first place.

VFE.

I couldn't have put it better myself VFE. I have a lot of sympathy for guys who have got their CPL/IR, exhausted every other avenue in trying to find a job, and are prepared to take a gamble on a type rating. ANY self-funded flying training is a calculated risk, and buying a TR is simply taking things to their logical conclusion.

However, even those guys must know they are being exploited by the airlines. The simple fact (simplistic if you like) is that if no-one was prepared to pay up-front for a TR, airlines would have no choice but to accept applicants without one. Unfortunately, this being the real world, there will always be those who'll pay just about anything, and accept virtually any deal, just to get a foot on the ladder. Twas ever so.

I'll accept the reality that the vast majority of pilots will have to self-fund their licence. I'll accept that an airline paying for a TR is making an expensive investment that benefits the pilot as much as the company, and that it's not unreasonable to be bonded for a period accordingly.

Call me old-fashioned, but I don't accept it's right that candidates should be expected to spend many thousands of pounds - on top of their licence costs - just to buy a 'qualification' that the airline would have to pay for anyway - if the candidate wasn't prepared to do it for them.

VFE - check your pms. :ok:

So in general you guys are saying not to buy TR unless the airline specifies so. Btw, where abouts can you do a TR?

mohit c , this is the third time you have asked about TR . you said you did research, well obviously not. WHERE CAN YOU BUY A TYPE RATING, WHY NOT GOOGLE TYPE RATING PROVIDERS OR DO YOU WANT EVERYONE TO TALK ON A SUBJECT THAT HAS BEEN DONE TO DEATH. GO DO MORE RESEARCH. you are not showing pilot potential with these questions.:= :yuk: :{ :E
BTW OPTION C, EVERYONE HAS PAID ENOUGH FOR THEIR TRAINING ALREADY.WHAT NEXT PAY TO WORK.

chlong, I guess I don't need the CAPS. I'm sure you were in my shoes at one stage! Let me specify a bit more, if an airline decides to do a type rating for a junior pilot, will they send them to the actual place where TR takes place (i.e. in Toulousse) or will they do it at their own base?

it depends on the airlines capability to conduct type rating, what their sim schedule is, with opc/lpc going on. like aer lingus at the moment they have an A320 sim but it is busy 24 hours a day so they have sent a lot of guys to toulousse (particularly the low hour guys ) as they cant wait on their own sim to become available. with aer lingus this scenario could go on for the next year or so. but they only have 1 sim, BA / AIR FRANCE HAVE MANY MORE BUT THEY CAN GET CAUGHT SHORT TOO. RYANAIR NEARLY KEEP cae AND sas GOING ALL THE TIME.hope this answers your question.

Yes that helps. The reason why I asked that is because I was considering the accommodation, length of stay, etc... because they're things which you must think about before hand.

in answer to how long, budget for two months but is dependant on type and how long you have to wait for base check if this is not done by your employer airline.

Buying your Type Rating.
 

Whilst I may be a "Wannabe" I was looking at the posts on here and decided to ask the following questions.

Assuming that I have gained my fATPL and that I am, for whatever reason still in a financial position to purchase my type rating what would peoples suggestions be for said type rating.

Lets also leave out the differences of opinion about buying your type rating.

I'm assuming that merely going out and paying for a 747 TR is going to be a total waste of money as I can't see that there are many airlines who are going to say "Here you go Mr Newly Qualified Pilot. Get yourself comfortable in that right hand seat and fly my long haul aircraft for me."

So, what would peoples recommendations be to go for.

Well whilst you may want opinions to be left out regarding buying one I would still say that if you buy one without a job offer you are taking a MASSIVE risk. But it's your money so why should I care.

I think it's pretty obvious here in the UK, the Airbus 320 or 737NG seems to be the type to go for, you may consider a 757 TR but it's all about your choice, personally I would opt for a 320 TR purely because of the amount of operators in the UK of this type

D.

That is a VERY VERY good point, one which I hadn't considered.

Another question I didn't ask was how many TR's can you maintain as current on your licence.

Buying a Type rating
 

Hey Fatboy Ginge
I am in the position you referred to. I have my Frozen ATPL plus FI and MCC and am considering my next move. I currently have about 550 hours and instruct PPL part-time, I work full time to pay the bills.
I am considering doing a Type Rating within the next year if nothing comes my way from the usual routes. I have come to this decision though only if I can get a job offer based on me providing the funding for my Type Rating. Over the past years in this aviation game I have managed to develop a few links. I think doing a Type Rating without a job offer is a HUGE Risk. Better still if you can stretch that bit further financially get yourself some hours on type whether its 50 or 100. OK its not a huge amount of experience but its better than nothing. See www.randhem.com and no I don't work for them just considering going there. Two friends of mine went there and both got jobs soon after they finished.
In terms of the type of aircraft to go for it would have to be a 737 or A320, both are very common in Europe with the former leading the way. Everyone I know who has paid for their type rating is currently flying for an airline. Despite this, be aware this is a huge risk and to maximise your chances of being put forward for employment you will really have to shine on your course. Many of the providers of Type rating training have links with airlines and can recommend you, so do as much preparation before you start (e.g get a hold of the CBT and manuals for your chosen aircraft before you start the course and practice, get used to the procedures etc.)
I hope this helps, no doubt there are many out there who disgaree with this subject but PM me if you want any more info.
All the Best
Smoothk:cool: :ok:

When i paid for my TR i considered both the 737 and the A320. When i looked at doing this (Jan 06) i came to the following conclusion. The main operators of the A320 at that time were the likes of Easyjet, Monarch, First Chioce, BMed etc and i did not feel that any of those airlines were going to take a low hours guy straight onto the jet. The 737 operators were Jet2, BMIBaby, Astreus and FlyGlobespan. These had a proven history of taking low hour pilots, and so for me the decision was easy, and sure enough i ended up flying for one of these operators.
In saying this, it's quite fluid, and you do have to look at what is going on. 6 months later things were quite different. A 757 rating would have been the one to go for, as both Globespan and Jet2 were struggling to find type rated pilots. You really do have to do your research, before you commit with a large amount of cash.
I am sure where you complete a SSTR has a bearing on it too. I did mine at GECAT and in the 2 months i was there, they were completing selection for major airlines and low houred guys were landing jobs every week. They dont guarantee jobs, but they do AIM to place all pilots they train. Whilst i was there 2 guys doing an A320 rating were taken on straight to an airline. The airline literally just snapped them up. They called GECAT and asked for 2 pilots, and that was that. I had to wait 6 months for a position, but all 4 of us on my SSTR course went to the same airline.
As for a risk, well i think this sums it up. During my airline interview the Chief Pilot interviewing me asked how much i had paid for my type rating. After i told him his reply was "You should have done it with us. You could have saved yourself 5 grand", to which i replied "If i did not have the type rating i would not be sitting here". He thought for a couple of seconds and then said "That's a very good point".

if you choose to go for a type rating (I don't recommend it, see below), do it in a big school like flight safety, CAE,...
these TRTO are regularly contacted by airlines to provide pilots and have contract with them.You pay little bit more, but they can help you, and will tell you where to apply.

in 6 months-1 year, airlines will be short of type rated pilots.If you are in your 20-30yo, why pay for a type rating?.

Nice to hear you got a job out of your TR Avrodamo.

Though I must confess to being somewhat of an advocate of the SSTR (as long as it's affordable) I do also know of one chap who got his TR and then waited for quite some time before getting a break. Admittedly this was a couple of years ago, nevertheless SSTR isn't a guaranteed route for everyone and though it helps get you further up the queue it can still be long wait from that point onwards. Maybe it's personality that factors into it too and you need to be a nice all round character or simply just in the wrong place at the wrong time as far as recruitment is concerned.

However one thing I do find alarming is the number of people who resign their jobs which simply compounds the risk further. If you can get through the mill gaining your JAR exams and the subsequent CPL/IR why do people leave their jobs at a drop of the hat? At least attempt to negogiate some unpaid leave from work or 'work from home', surely try something to hang onto your job and don't become so mesmerised by the fictional prospect of immediate employment post SSTR. Plan ahead of time there's more chance of other parties agreeing when they have ample notice and if not then you know where you stand ahead of schedule and not some last minute surprise.

Well I do have a fallback plan in place for when I finally get the cash together and take the plunge to do my training. Being an LGV driver means that I can work once I've completed training and start to service some of the debt I've managed to rack up.

For any wannabes who are thinking about what to do if the phone call doesn't come the moment you qualify then perhaps look at taking at least your class 2 (Category C) licence. It might not pay as much as flying but most agencies will pay you between £8 - £10 per hour... Just a thought.

Fatboy_ginge .... good tip, hmmm at least it'll help tie over some wannabes with a bit of cash whilst waiting for the phone to ring :ok:

A320 rating + Time on type?
 

I am also considering a type rating on either the 737 or A320, I have done some research and can find plenty of TRTO who offer 737 and 50/100hours on type. I havent found one yet that does A320 +100 hours? A320 is my preference, anybody got any suggestions?

Yes, definately good to have a plan B.

Actually, the mentioned 747 rating would most certainly give you a job, even FAA would do (making this under USD10 000). Have a look at AAI threads on here.

737 worked for me, plenty of jobs around right now, but try to get hours on type with the rating... Maybe worth checking Wizzair too...

good luck! IP

Hardcase, that's an interesting perspective you highlighted with reference to the Turboprop. However as a matter of interest which providers facilitate TP training? Of course I know of numerous organisations relating to B737/A320 but few if any spring to mind regarding Turboprops.

Anyway congratulations on gaining employment, enjoy....:ok:

Interesting thread. Similar position myself; considering the various options, and have also been given the advice that a TR on it's own is not hugely useful.

There are various schemes out there (sigmar, storm, etc), and more appear to be being set up, whereby you pay for the TR and time on type. These arrangements cost about £10-14k more than just the TR (of course, you're paying to fly a commercial flight...but that's beside the point :hmm: ).

Now, the thought goes, would it not be cheaper to offer ones services for free for 150h (say) rather than actually have to pay for the flying? it seems logical to me, and I'd frankly be happy to do it - probationary period and all that - but I was wondering how to go about it? Any ideas?

OL

Try applying to FR...

They seem to offer that type of scheme. :}

Hardcase
 

Its not a matter of a big shiney jet, not for me anyway. Its a simple case of there are more A320/737 than any other A/C. The more operators there are the more jobs there are. I'm already sending CVs (400) with the offer to self fund type, the only people to respond are the jet operators. Go figure!
Be proud and unemployed or pay for the rating and work, sorry I've got bills to pay.

Why does everyone always refer to aeroplanes as big and shiny? Most, more often than not are always covered in crap and dirt! :O

I agree most airliners are somewhat dirty and mucky to say the least, throw a bucket of water on 'em :ok:

Isn't image a big thing in the airline world....? Nor can it be doing much good for the performance figures :ok:

Okay back to the thread.

A320 Type rating
 

Any information about the A320 type rating course at Intercockpit ( Frankfurt) is greatly appreciated. Thanks

Reduced TRTO
 

Dear all,

It mentions in Lasors 2007 that '....they will be required to complete an approved JAA type rating course and if applicable, the course may be reduced to take into account any previous experience on the same type upon recommendation from the Head of Training of the TRTO to PLD'

Section G1.5

If for instance a guy has 300 hours on a B747, how much of a TRTO course will he need to do before he can get the rating added to his JAA licence?

Has anyone been in this postion before to tell me how lenient the UK CAA were in terms of reducing the length of the course?

Ask them to guarantee you the line training and will see if they put you through with their so partners :=