40 at the moment so will have to pay my way at CTC

Difficult one this

Flying F

I considered a Shed type rating about 18 months ago just after I got my licence. The company I looked at offer the rating and the possibility of a job at the end of it. Before you go ahead with it, It may be worth asking the training provider how many people have done the course and how many positions have been filled recently. When I looked into it, the number of people gaining the rating far outwieghed those who were offered positions. Bearing in mind that there are not that many Shed operators these days, I decided that the chances of getting a position were fairly small.

worzel

FF,

I am ex CTC.

I have to say that I think the AQC would be the best option, however as you are over 34 I don't think they will help you. You certainly will not get a jet job thru CTC at your age.....sorry, but I think that is a fact.

A "SHED" rating? Don't know the value of one to be honest. As someone said, there ain't many "SHED" operators about. If I were you, I would concentrate on getting another non flying job. Keep instructing and keep your cash in the bank until things pick up.... and I reckon there will be recruitment in small numbers later this year.

Join BALPA as an associate member and pay £30 to go to the EMPLOYMENT OPPORTUNITIES CONFERENCE in London in October. See what employers say there. Even ask them directly as to what may be best.........it is a bunfight, but you WILL get up to date information.

You can then use your cash to pay for whatever may help you best then......

Remember a co pilot on a "SHED" will earn about £19k tops I reckon.......is it worth the risk?

I'm also pondering this myself. At age 35, I don't know if CTC can help or not, guess I'll have to ask them how strict the 34 age limit is?
I've been reliably informed that there are aprox' 30 Shed's on the U.K. reg, operators include Emerald and Chan-Ex', both of which operate out/into Cov, which is my base and where Streamline do the type rating. By the way Chan-Ex have been interviewing recently for the Cov rostering.
The plus points of CTC are, even if you're too old for the ATP scheme, and you reach the required grade that would have allowed you entry you have an MCC that is a recognisable standard for the likes of Ezy/Monarch/Brits/Maersk. Not a bad thing for the old CV, and a definate plus for any sim' check, as the third week envolves jet handling on a similar type - the pondering continues!

An MCC is nothing more than an MCC. CTC is good for the low time who will get on board the scheme and later on land a jet job but whether you have done an MCC with The Academy, Multiflight or the Wright's Brothers, this has hardly any relevance in the selection process.

Like the man Tailscrape has said, for the over 34, get a cheap MCC, save the £,err... I mean your pounds and keep current, fly instrument, get an instructor rating, do anything to keep the old log book ticking.

As for getting a Shed rating, well, apart from the principle that I don't necessarily support, most importantly are the rather limited prospect.

Guys,

AMEX is spot on.

As for the over 34 rule, it used to be VERY STRICTLY enforced. i.e. NO-ONE over 34 gets on the ATP scheme.

I am sure this chap won't mind me saying, but here goes:

I did my ATP Academy sim with perhaps the most capable pilot I have ever met. He was just 35 then. He aced the sim and then got told he was too old for the jet course. He now flies a Turbo for a UK regional.

He is quite frankly one of the best hand fliers I have seen and a bloody nice guy.

Don't get your hopes up about rule bending at CTC. They just don't need to do it.

Just out of interest - how much do they charge for a shed rating ?

Streamline do one for about £8,000. I think BAC do one for about £10,500.

I'm not sure why there's a price difference - maybe aircraft rental rates - Streamline have a Shorts 330 available whereas maybe BAC have an all SD360 fleet (therefore higher a/c rental)?

It's a common type rating for the 330 and 360.

cheers!
foggy.

Foghorn,

you can do a B737-300 type rating for less than 15,000 pounds at gatwick - wouldn't that be more useful ?

easondown,

Like anything in life, of course a 737 rating sounds better than a SD360 rating.

However, realistically how many 737 operators will give you a job with no experience on type except half a dozen circuits? Not many I think. Perhaps Ryanair will give you a pittance for coming qualified? I don't know.

easyJet have stated 500 hours on type is their minimum now, and I doubt that you get that included in a type rating. Unless you are really hopeless. In which case it will cost more than 15 grand won't it?

I still say "keep your money in the bank" until a clearer employment picture develops.

I've received the following information about Streamline's Shed rating setup which you might find of interest:

1. Ground school is done at Southend. Flying training can be either Southend or Coventry. It depends on where the 330 is.
2. Not every one will get a job after doing the course. Just as not every one will get a job after doing the CPL. Many people stuff their chances by abusing the office staff. Very bad move.
3. TRTO is a lower priority to the scheduled work and ad hoc charters.
4. Now taking on FO's from the courses ran latter half of last year.

In general, I'd advise that type ratings are not very useful if you don't have experience behind you. A shiny 737 rating with no line hours is a total waste of time and money. A Shed rating with reasonable air time might be worth a go if you fancy that kind of flying, but there are very few Shed operators these days!

easondown
Although I had a disagreement with Tailscrape on a few occasions, I must say the man might not be telling what you would like to hear but he has a fair point.
Do what what you like, he only speaks from experience.......

As far as from having a hobby/life, no problem for him, he has/will get more/plenty of time for that.

See you on the Golf course ;)

Amex,

I am also speaking from experience. A good friend of mine has recently completed B737 rating and got a job straight after it. Its not something I'll be doing as I'm quite happy flying the A320 at the moment.

:D I love posting at 3 am after returning from the Pub.
Makes great reading the next day ;)

Thanks for all the replys, still undecided which way to go.

One more question to those in the know.
Is it possible for the over 34's to pay there own way and complete the AQC course, if so does it get you any higher up the CV pile and more employable.

Thanks again

Flying F

Unless the intention is to go through the mill of the ATP scheme (which you can't due age) then is it really worth the £6.5K for ten or so hours in a generic 737 sim?

No doubt the experience of an AQC will be of extremely high quality tuition which will help in any forthcoming airline sim assessments, but will any chief pilots know what an AQC is when they read your cv?

Surely you would want to keep as much money in the bank if you are about to lose your regular income?

As for the shed rating, I know two people that did it and both eventually got jobs, but that was a couple of years ago.

Shed Rating
 

I am seriously considering doing the Shed rating even if this would mean being placed into a holding pool. One thing though, would it be better to lay out an extra 3-4 grand and perhaps go for an F27 or ATR rating as there are more operators about? Anyway, if anyone is thinking about doing the Streamline course please E-Mail me for a chat!

easondown,

The problem with the 737 rating is that £16,500 (GECAT quoted figures) only buys you the groundschool and sim parts of the rating - the base training is around another £4,000.

You can get an SD330/360 rating for £8,000 and that includes 7 hours in the aircraft.

I could stretch to £8,000 if it increased my chances of being employed. At the moment £20,500 I could not stretch to without robbing a bank or discovering a rich uncle I didn't know about. It's proving hard enough working out where the money to renew my IR is coming from (thank you Mr Visa)...

Of course, as has been highlighted, the Shed operators that offer type ratings fit the training in around their usual flying program so you could be left waiting a long time to complete the course - as the old saying goes 'time to spare, go by air' I suppose.

Thanks for the inside track on the shed rating, Scroggs.

cheers!
foggy.

Foghorn,

You are right about the Gecat figures at Gatwick, but there is another company at Gatwick which will do the B737 type rating for approx 15000 pounds inc base training and vat.
Hope this inf is helpful.

Yes but that 'other' company at gatwick do not even have the decency to answer e-mails or telephone enquiries... :mad:

Who is it, btw?

cheers!
foggy.

Foghorn,

The companys' name is Astraeus.

Ah. I was not aware of that fact.

You know it really worries me after reading these posts that so many of you are considering paying up to 18k for your own type ratings!

For what? Sure the experience will be worth while but wake up please!! 18K????

No airline is interested in somebody who has a type rating and no experience on type! This is merely putting cash in the pockets of the businesses that operate these courses, it really is not benefitting you enough for the amount of money it costs!

You'd be far better off investing in a decent MCC course and or an instructors rating to build more hours and gain experience that way.

IMHO, and that is all it is, I believe that you guys are shooting not only yourselves in the feet but also the other poor studes out there also looking for a job at the end of already shifting £50k on a course!

Please dont let the airlines EXPECT us to pay for our own type ratings in future, by building those foundations now, for your own sakes.

I personnally will be investing in the AQC, after IR, and am very much looking forward to it, but I would not even consider paying so much money for a type rating when the airlines would want to retrain you anyway in accordance with their own operating proceedures.

Mate,

Get your IR.
Get an MCC.
Get an instructors rating and join the queue looking for instructing jobs.
Apply for airline jobs for years and get nothing but Dear John letters.

You might then look at things differently.

I do not wish to reignite the old debate re self-sponsored type ratings. There are pros and cons of every approach to getting a job.

At the end of the day it's all to do with market forces. If there are enough people out there with the money or access to credit to pay for a type rating, people will self sponsor and airlines will hire them. There is enough circumstantial evidence to suggest that a significant number of people have been hired with self-sponsored type ratings in the past - often by the airline with whom they are doing their base training.

To apply your argument ad absurdum none of us should be paying for our CPL/IRs - the airlines should stump up through sponsorship. But then how many of us self-sponsored (foggy's hand goes up)?

Also notice that quite a few of the people considering the type rating route are (cough) more mature and have families and other commitments. Several years of instructing on the breadline may not be a viable option for them (hell, I'm only 29 and I don't fancy that sort of money again - I struggled to live on similar money last time at the start of my 'old' career).

Sure, it's one hell of a big gamble for the less than rich. But then, isn't life a series of calculated gambles? Wasn't doing the CPL/IR in the first place? You pays your money and takes your choice.


cheers!
foggy

I dont see how a self funded Type Rating is a good idea. It plays into the hands of the likes of Ryanair, while they make a fortune out of their core business of flying people around, they charge desperate wannabe's for a type rating. WHY??

There is no justification for this other than the fact that employers seem to have figured out that pilots in general are fairly dis-united group of employees and wannabes in particular are completely unrepresented. Neither BALPA nor the IPA represent the views of wannabes. Is not bad enough to be bonded?

Paying for your own type rating is only going to screw it up for others that follow later. I certainly cannot justify to myself (and certainly not to the wife) spending an extra 18k on a type rating. If enough people do this how long will it be before it is another "requirement". We have been hoodwinked into paying for MCC courses ourselves. I keep wondering whats next?

1st point: Foggy, I am not your mate.

2nd point: Even though I would side on not having to pay for your type rating, just so that it doesn't ever become another standard requirement by the airlines, I can however see the point of view of those more financially fortunate with nothing better to do than waste their money!

Well, that's me told then :rolleyes:

Morning Glory,

I do understand what you are saying, and luckily enough I've never had to pay for a type rating, but an interesting fact is that, EJ, Ryanair etc are all loosley based around the Southwest model in the USA and they only hired pilots who payed for their own type ratings. Perhaps this is the way the UK/European market is heading in the next few years - food for thought !!!

I don't have too many problems with paying for type ratings after a firm job offer has been made as long as the pilot is then not bonded for conversion/airline specific training.

To bond already-rated people is IMHO wrong.

Not just wrong foggy, it will not stick in court, so I am toild by a reliable souce. Bonds work only because of a loss incurred by the employer. No loss, no case.

Thanks all for the input,

I must say that I am against the idea of paying for my own type rating.
The problem is I want to fly. At the age of 39 decided on a career change, got my self retrained, did well passed every thing, exams and flight tests, except IR, first time. Thought this might, just might get me a sniff at a job. Sadly I was very much mistaken.
With the remaining money from my redundancy all I would like is to is make my self more employable.
Have taken all advice onboard, think I'll just go into round 3 of CV deployment and save cash.

Safe flying to you all

Flying F

Useful Type Rating
 

People who know me know that I am dead against the 'paying for a type rating' argument. However, there seems to be quite a few wannabes who are prepared to go down this path.

So - with the introduction of the new single-engine turbine IFR legislation on the horizon I am suggesting to wannabes that if you are interested in paying for a type rating you should be looking seriously at the C208 or PC12. Sure, single-engine time in the logbook but they have more modern systems than you will find in any F27, it's a turbine engine and they are operated in copious numbers around the world.

Forget about paying for F27, SH360 and 737 type ratings (leave that for the employers!). If you must - go and get yourself an SET rating that will be of some use in the future.

I agree
 

Wow I have to say I agree with what you say (Even though I know the Cesna Caravan and about its complexity I wouldn't compare it to a F27). I just would like to know where I could get some more info about price and requirement for this Type rating. :confused:

The main question is whether such turbine aircraft will be certified single or multi crew! Single crew = likely 700 hrs min requirement.

Trust a lawyer to come out with a line like that......;)

Greetings Splat! :) How's things for you? I'm currently at home weighing up options and turning my hand to some DIY and home improvements. :eek:

As far as I am aware the first C208 which rolled off the line in 1985 was certified single-pilot and nothng has since changed.

In line with the other countries operating SET's on IFR operations (Canada, Australia, S. Africa, etc) I would imagine that the CAA will require two bods on pax operations and single-pilot for cargo. However, there is nothing to stop you pulling the A/P C/B and logging P2 time on a cargo operation ;)

Grivation,

DHL are going to use the Caravan when it becomes available in the UK?

Ditch aging twin engined aircraft......what on earth are you saying?

DHL fly the 757 in the UK! Slightly larger than a Caravan..... old yes, but in the same league? NO!

Unless you have some definite info on job opportunities with a type rating, I imagine your info may be a little bit misguided.

You could have wannabees paying for Caravan ratings, then ringing up DHL to be told ...... "Sorry, unless you have at least 1500 hours, with a minimum of 1000 hours on the 757 type, you will not be of any use to DHL", oh dear.

I see what you are saying is trying to be helpful, but I wonder if it may not be a little misleading? After all, DHL don't even fly turboprops! Not in UK anyway.... and I believe EAT have ordered 757's too..... in fact I think the only DHL affiliate airlines in the network are Swiftair with Convairs.... or the others may be contractors.

I still would not advise anyone to pay for type ratings without a guaranteed job offer in writing...

I have flown the 208, nice plane but cost 1.5 million $.Insurance will ask for at least 1500h for the Pilot in command and 500h for the second in command if company want 2 pilots.Depend of the number of pilot available on the market.(that is my opinion)
My question is: do you know when single turbine will be authorized in europe in commercial op.?with pax or no pax?
this law will be very good for us (low time pilots) and for the industry.:)