WARNING - To anyone considering flight training in the USA
Supercharged PPRuNer
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WARNING - To anyone considering flight training in the USA
Having got through the fiasco at Naples Air Center (see existing thread for chapter & verse) I managed to switch to another school in Naples - only for them to be told to stop operating, by the same people and for the same reason.
When looking at possible schools to train with, be sure to ask them what is their position with regard to insurance of their employees. Specifically, would they have sufficient cover to remain in business if the State of Florida decided to pay them a visit?
It would appear that the government is having a purge of FTOs (in Naples at the moment, but no doubt across Florida in due course, and possibly even countrywide). Whether this is heavy-handed bureaucracy stifling free enterprise, or schools getting caught out trying to exploit loopholes in employment legislation, I neither know nor care. It’s academic.
What you absolutely must be aware of is that the government has the power (and the will) to shut down FTOs at a moment’s notice. If it happens to your school, you may be lucky and find somewhere else to train, or you may not.
At best, your flying programme will be seriously disrupted and you will be doing a lot less flying than you expected. At worst, you may have no option but to cut your losses and take the next flight home.
My plan was to do a quick FAA PPL flight test (not having had time to convert my JAA licence) then hours build for a couple of weeks, coming back with another 50 hours or so. One week in, I have incurred approx $2,600 costs and flown a whopping 3 hours 50 minutes. P/UT. In a C-150. Do the sums, consider the risks, and ask yourself very carefully whether the USA, at the present time, is really your best option.
(Scroggs / WWW – I’ve posted this in Private Flying as well)
When looking at possible schools to train with, be sure to ask them what is their position with regard to insurance of their employees. Specifically, would they have sufficient cover to remain in business if the State of Florida decided to pay them a visit?
It would appear that the government is having a purge of FTOs (in Naples at the moment, but no doubt across Florida in due course, and possibly even countrywide). Whether this is heavy-handed bureaucracy stifling free enterprise, or schools getting caught out trying to exploit loopholes in employment legislation, I neither know nor care. It’s academic.
What you absolutely must be aware of is that the government has the power (and the will) to shut down FTOs at a moment’s notice. If it happens to your school, you may be lucky and find somewhere else to train, or you may not.
At best, your flying programme will be seriously disrupted and you will be doing a lot less flying than you expected. At worst, you may have no option but to cut your losses and take the next flight home.
My plan was to do a quick FAA PPL flight test (not having had time to convert my JAA licence) then hours build for a couple of weeks, coming back with another 50 hours or so. One week in, I have incurred approx $2,600 costs and flown a whopping 3 hours 50 minutes. P/UT. In a C-150. Do the sums, consider the risks, and ask yourself very carefully whether the USA, at the present time, is really your best option.
(Scroggs / WWW – I’ve posted this in Private Flying as well)
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Dont pay in advance. EVER. Even if it seems cheaper. NOT ALL PEOPLE IN AVIATION ARE CROOKS, BUT ALL CROOKS ARE IN AVIATION. This will become more apparent as the USA and all countries slide into further recession.
I sincerely hope that this post did not offend anyone. Even the folks at jetblast.
I sincerely hope that this post did not offend anyone. Even the folks at jetblast.
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All crooks are in aviation? I'm sure all the law enforcement agencies involved in things other than aviation will be pleased to learn that they can pack up and go home!
Seriously - read G SXTY's post carefully. There's something odd going on in Florida, and it seems that a lot of FTO's may be caught in the fallout. As polzin says, don't pay in advance. If you can, pay by credit card to obtain the protection of the card issuer (but check that your protection is valid on overseas transactions - 'Which' and the OFT says it is; some card issuers disagree).
If anyone can give us some authoritative info on what's happening and which schools are affected, we'd all be grateful!
Scroggs
Seriously - read G SXTY's post carefully. There's something odd going on in Florida, and it seems that a lot of FTO's may be caught in the fallout. As polzin says, don't pay in advance. If you can, pay by credit card to obtain the protection of the card issuer (but check that your protection is valid on overseas transactions - 'Which' and the OFT says it is; some card issuers disagree).
If anyone can give us some authoritative info on what's happening and which schools are affected, we'd all be grateful!
Scroggs
Dancing with the devil, going with the flow... it's all a game to me.
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Hi G-SXTY,
Really sorry to hear about your trouble mate. I have been on the phone to a friend of mine who is an instructor at the Florida Institute of Technology flight school in Melbourne to try and get some more info on this worrying issue for you. He said that FIT's insurance costs have recently been increased too but there is very little chance of FIT going bust because basically, being a part of Florida's biggest university they obviously have government links/backing/approval/ .....call it what you want, but it would be very unlikely to happen!
So, if you are still milling about trying to find a suitable FTO I could think of no better place to recommend than FIT in Melbourne. I did my FAA PPL and hours build package late last year with them and could not fault the set up. They have a C172, C152 and PA28 for hire at reasonable prices. If you call 321-6746501 and ask to speak to Mike Brandon (a senior CFI and examiner) he should be able to help.
I hope this info will be of some help to you, if it's not then please except my apologies.
There does indeed appear to be something strange happening amongst Florida FTO's at them moment, apparently another FTO in Orlando went under this week too. I recommend FIT from personal experience and for the above reasons of university backing.
Hope you sort something out soon and good luck.
VFE.
Really sorry to hear about your trouble mate. I have been on the phone to a friend of mine who is an instructor at the Florida Institute of Technology flight school in Melbourne to try and get some more info on this worrying issue for you. He said that FIT's insurance costs have recently been increased too but there is very little chance of FIT going bust because basically, being a part of Florida's biggest university they obviously have government links/backing/approval/ .....call it what you want, but it would be very unlikely to happen!
So, if you are still milling about trying to find a suitable FTO I could think of no better place to recommend than FIT in Melbourne. I did my FAA PPL and hours build package late last year with them and could not fault the set up. They have a C172, C152 and PA28 for hire at reasonable prices. If you call 321-6746501 and ask to speak to Mike Brandon (a senior CFI and examiner) he should be able to help.
I hope this info will be of some help to you, if it's not then please except my apologies.
There does indeed appear to be something strange happening amongst Florida FTO's at them moment, apparently another FTO in Orlando went under this week too. I recommend FIT from personal experience and for the above reasons of university backing.
Hope you sort something out soon and good luck.
VFE.
Last edited by VFE; 1st Mar 2003 at 13:34.
The Oracle
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G SXTY,
I am sorry and do apologize because we were not able to complete your PPL and hour building at this time.
At the same time, we did immediately refund all your money you had on account, as we did with all the students. You arrived on Saturday night, came in on Monday when you took your PPL written exam, then Nikki personally took you to another school that afternoon and introduced you to the president of the school, so you could continue training with the least amount of interruption. As I understand, you were due to start at 0800 on the Tuesday. In addition, I had checked on your progress as I did with all students and understand that you had been trying to get the night portion completed over the last couple of nights.
polzin,
I think it only seems like there are a lot of crooks in aviation. In fact I have over the years met many good people and only a hand full of bad ones. This is just a very unforgiving industry.
Richard
I am sorry and do apologize because we were not able to complete your PPL and hour building at this time.
At the same time, we did immediately refund all your money you had on account, as we did with all the students. You arrived on Saturday night, came in on Monday when you took your PPL written exam, then Nikki personally took you to another school that afternoon and introduced you to the president of the school, so you could continue training with the least amount of interruption. As I understand, you were due to start at 0800 on the Tuesday. In addition, I had checked on your progress as I did with all students and understand that you had been trying to get the night portion completed over the last couple of nights.
polzin,
I think it only seems like there are a lot of crooks in aviation. In fact I have over the years met many good people and only a hand full of bad ones. This is just a very unforgiving industry.
Richard
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G-SXTY,
Mate... I'm sorry to hear that your having such a difficult time trying to get something "meaningful" achieved whilst your out there.
I hope you manage to get some flying done in the next week or so.
Regards.
Has.
Mate... I'm sorry to hear that your having such a difficult time trying to get something "meaningful" achieved whilst your out there.
I hope you manage to get some flying done in the next week or so.
Regards.
Has.
Supercharged PPRuNer
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Just so we are clear, I am not attempting to blame anyone for this situation, nor have I ever done so. I pointed out in my post on the original thread that NAC were refunding deposits and assisting students in finding alternative schools. I think they have behaved entirely above-board, and in the circumstances, I don’t think there is anything more they could have done. I phrased this post very carefully to provide the most objective assessment of the situation that I could, and if anyone reads blame into that then they misinterpret my comments.
The word ‘fiasco’ still stands however, because it is becoming increasingly clear that there is an ‘issue’ in Florida regarding employee insurance at flying schools. I do not know how this situation has arisen – time will tell - but it obviously isn’t restricted to one school, and it clearly has the potential to catch out an awful lot of people.
That fact needs reporting, so that would-be students are aware of the situation before they commit themselves.
The word ‘fiasco’ still stands however, because it is becoming increasingly clear that there is an ‘issue’ in Florida regarding employee insurance at flying schools. I do not know how this situation has arisen – time will tell - but it obviously isn’t restricted to one school, and it clearly has the potential to catch out an awful lot of people.
That fact needs reporting, so that would-be students are aware of the situation before they commit themselves.
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There does seem to be a big compliance crackdown in Florida and 'about time too' as it's unfair that some schools have been allowed to operate with desparate instructors but without paying their proper dues.
This thread underlines the importance of choosing a reputable school, wherever you want to train.
This thread underlines the importance of choosing a reputable school, wherever you want to train.
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USA schools
What about Florida Flight Training, the partner of CABAIR in Kissimmee, I have been down to CABAIR and all seems well over there- any comments or experience?
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Richard (NAC)
Can you let us know exactly why you (and others by the look of it) had to cease flight training?
I applaude your sence of ethics by making sure that none of the students who had paid you monies upfront were left out of pocket , but it seems that others havn't been so lucky.
It is begining to appear that flight training and hours building in the US is rapidly beoming a no no.
Maybe there are other countries and FTO's who will benifit from this. I hope that they are on the ball and get things sorted so that they can benifit.
BTW
I was planning to come to the US to do some hrs building in Srept/Oct 2003. I will now be looking to South Africa for some cheap flying hours.
C-I-M
Can you let us know exactly why you (and others by the look of it) had to cease flight training?
I applaude your sence of ethics by making sure that none of the students who had paid you monies upfront were left out of pocket , but it seems that others havn't been so lucky.
It is begining to appear that flight training and hours building in the US is rapidly beoming a no no.
Maybe there are other countries and FTO's who will benifit from this. I hope that they are on the ball and get things sorted so that they can benifit.
BTW
I was planning to come to the US to do some hrs building in Srept/Oct 2003. I will now be looking to South Africa for some cheap flying hours.
C-I-M
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Ive just come back from holidays. Part of which was a trip to some FTOs in florida. Basically we went to Comair. I had been in touch with their international admin person beforhand so I knew what was in order. I spoke to Chris McShea who was more than helpful will all aspects of what Comair offers. We saw the first JAA class, unfortunatly, they were in class, so I didnt get to speak to them about life in Comair but from some of the other students we talked to, they seemed very happy. The have great training facilities and a rather large fleet that is in great nick. Fro next month, students will be in blue uniform, whilst instructors will be in white. Yes, I will agree that Comair is more expensive than other FTOs, but after going there and seeing the facilities first hand I would say that it is well worth it.
I dont speak for Comair, if you want to talk more about it, mail me, you will get an unbiased opinion. The other thing is that I would also consider is Las Vegas for a FTO. Check out www.westairaviation.com which is a school I went to and hired a 172 to fly over the grand canyon!! What a serious buzz!!
I dont speak for Comair, if you want to talk more about it, mail me, you will get an unbiased opinion. The other thing is that I would also consider is Las Vegas for a FTO. Check out www.westairaviation.com which is a school I went to and hired a 172 to fly over the grand canyon!! What a serious buzz!!
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Flight training in the US
Please note that there are still small operators across the US who can offer you good value high quality training. The Big operators, due to current constraints, may not be the best way to go. I fly every now and then in Oklahoma and Kansas. I have done some flight training in Oklahoma with a small operator and found the instruction superb. Don't let one bad experience chill your dreams.
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Re. Flight training in the US
Agreed re. small operators offering value and quality.
The problem now is the need for M visa for training towards ratings or certificates. Small operators are not necessarily registered to issue the I-20 and probably can't justify the time and effort when their local or national pilot market keeps them busy enough.
Anyone with recent experience of small operators and M visas?
The problem now is the need for M visa for training towards ratings or certificates. Small operators are not necessarily registered to issue the I-20 and probably can't justify the time and effort when their local or national pilot market keeps them busy enough.
Anyone with recent experience of small operators and M visas?
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Flight training in the United States
A common misunderstanding. You do not need an M-1 visa to do a short course of flight training in the US and acquire a license. This is a permissible activity under the B1/B2 visa or visa waiver program. However, if you are intending to fly an aircraft over 12,500lbs then you will need to get clearance before you start your training. If your flight training involves aircraft under 12,500 lbs you do not need clearance. Come on over and enjoy yourself, the US is a great place to fly.
The Bumblebee
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Campbell,
Not true my friend. Any flight training that leads to issue of licence requires you to be on either M or J visa. INS changed the regulations in June last year and I can give you email addresses of many of my students who were sent back home from Orlando airport. (btw I talk on behalf of Britannia Flight Center, which we closed down in October due to lack of visa approvals).
VFE,
As far as I know FIT is not a FTO. Please do not confuse FBO with FTO's. All the FTO's (Flight Training Organisation) have to be approved by CAA/JAA. You can find the list of approved FTO's in the USA at CAA's website www.srg.caa.co.uk.
Good luck everyone with your flight training.
Cheers,
Jatin
Not true my friend. Any flight training that leads to issue of licence requires you to be on either M or J visa. INS changed the regulations in June last year and I can give you email addresses of many of my students who were sent back home from Orlando airport. (btw I talk on behalf of Britannia Flight Center, which we closed down in October due to lack of visa approvals).
VFE,
As far as I know FIT is not a FTO. Please do not confuse FBO with FTO's. All the FTO's (Flight Training Organisation) have to be approved by CAA/JAA. You can find the list of approved FTO's in the USA at CAA's website www.srg.caa.co.uk.
Good luck everyone with your flight training.
Cheers,
Jatin
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Desipilot
INS changed the regulations
Can you cite the regulation?
What might be interesting is whether the INS officer quoted any specific regulation(s) when denying entry to all your contacts.
INS changed the regulations
Can you cite the regulation?
What might be interesting is whether the INS officer quoted any specific regulation(s) when denying entry to all your contacts.
Last edited by slim_slag; 3rd Mar 2003 at 04:26.
Details here (US embassy website)
Quoteing from it,
Quoteing from it,
those wishing to attend a vocational or non-academic institution require an M-1 visa. Holders of visitor(B-2) visas and those who have entered the United States visa free under the Visa Waiver Program are prohibited from entering into full-time study.