Those with a frozen ATPL
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I cannot believe that all you guys spent that much money without doing a lot of research first. If I was spending that kind of money I would want far more info from the school on career paths of past students, pass rates, average time to get licences, etc. I would want hard facts from all the schools.. .Also, I cannot believe you only listened to the salesman! Its a bit like going into a Skoda garage and asking them what car to buy. They tell you that the Skoda is the best car you will find. So you hand over your cash. I think not. But that is just what you have all done at Oxford. . .Before I ever set foot in an aircraft I did so much research. I sussed out early on that Oxford was not all it says it is. I searched out airline pilots and asked them about the industry and how hard/easy it is to get a job. I asked them about reputations of schools. I found out what you need to stay current.. .Nowhere in Oxford's contract does it say they will find you a job. Even the most basic research will throw up the fact that aviation usually runs on a 7 year cycle, and having just had a very good period for new pilots, it was bound to turn down again. What happens here usually happens in America a year or so earlier. Anyone reading the paper could see what was happening. . .Who said that getting high marks in your written exams or being one of the best on your course will help in getting a job? . .Who said that having an OATS CPL/IR would make you a cut above the others? . .Certainly not the industry or anyone doing recruiting.. .OATS are very good salespeople, obviously. There are some very gullible people out there.. .I looked at all the schools, the different courses and routes available and chose my own route (modular).. .I planned a way of keeping current and building hours at very low cost, both before and after my CPL. I planned what I was going to do after getting my licence, in order to have enough money to live on (no rich parents unfortunately).. .I started trying to make contacts and keep up with what was happening in the industry.. .It was very obvious to me that 1000 hours and a frozen ATPL were the minimum paper requirements, and the rest was down to getting an interview and performing well at it. . .If everyone has the same qualifications and experience then it is the person they are looking for.. .Anyone, rather than billowing in your own misery, think laterally and try and figure out what to do next. We are at the low end of the 7 year cycle which means there is only one way to go. This summer will see airlines starting to recruit again, and it won't take long before all the redundant pilots will have got jobs again. . .However, the recruiters are looking for licence, hours, and currency as well as motivation and determination.. .So make 100% sure you are current. Forget the fact that you have gone to OATS, it is totally irrelevant. Even if you were the best student. According to OATS. So what? No-one is interested.. .And start doing your research into airlines. Find out everything about them, what experience levels they have recruited at before, what their fleet is, what their future plans are, have they ordered more aircraft, etc.etc.. .Then you will have the research and knowledge behind you to get yourself an interview.. .Also make sure your CV is as good as it can be.. .Good luck.
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Dear most,
Having re-read this post several times (And with a few exceptions) I am staggered to see that some people seem to think that just because you have been to OATS that the aviation world should give you a job at the drop of a hat!
Generally you get your job on merit, hard work, networking and luck, the school you went to doesnt owe you anything, all they are there for is to get you through your exams.Finito. Its not like buying a car where you get after sales service, theyve done their job, you should be grateful.
Maybe you feel hard done to, sadly the worlds like that, get used to it.
And before you flame me out of hand I'm at OATS right now and once I've finished I dont expect any favours.
Now I've lit the blue touch paper I'll stand well clear.........
TBL
Having re-read this post several times (And with a few exceptions) I am staggered to see that some people seem to think that just because you have been to OATS that the aviation world should give you a job at the drop of a hat!
Generally you get your job on merit, hard work, networking and luck, the school you went to doesnt owe you anything, all they are there for is to get you through your exams.Finito. Its not like buying a car where you get after sales service, theyve done their job, you should be grateful.
Maybe you feel hard done to, sadly the worlds like that, get used to it.
And before you flame me out of hand I'm at OATS right now and once I've finished I dont expect any favours.
Now I've lit the blue touch paper I'll stand well clear.........
TBL
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GrandadFlyer, thanks for a balanced post (neither excessively motivational nor merchant of doom <img src="wink.gif" border="0"> )
I've been doing a couple of months reading on the subject of gaining a fATPL. IMHO it would seem to be a good time to be starting the modular route - while no one has a crystal ball - it would seem that (given the 7yrs cycle you mention) 2.5yrs down the line will be a good time to come onto the job market? One other question: You outsearched out pilots? Where? Does one just sidle up to them in the "Wright Arms" and whisper (in an Arabian accent of course) "psst, I want to be a pilot" <img src="smile.gif" border="0">
I've been doing a couple of months reading on the subject of gaining a fATPL. IMHO it would seem to be a good time to be starting the modular route - while no one has a crystal ball - it would seem that (given the 7yrs cycle you mention) 2.5yrs down the line will be a good time to come onto the job market? One other question: You outsearched out pilots? Where? Does one just sidle up to them in the "Wright Arms" and whisper (in an Arabian accent of course) "psst, I want to be a pilot" <img src="smile.gif" border="0">
Those of you planning to go to into flying training in the near future read Grandad Flyers post, then print it off and read it again, once you have got totaly sick of reading it, read it some more!!!!
I went to OATS in Oct 98, did an upgrade, shiny new CPL/IR, large dept, no job. luckly I had bugeted for an instructors rating as well. Got my first job through the ATP scheam in May 2000 for 18 months I had to keep current and renew my IR, I had bugeted for that as well.
If you think that a CPL/IR is the end of the story, you are wrong, very wrong. I todays market you have to keep that current and pay for the renewals. There are cheaper options out there, which may take longer to do, but in this market that is not a problem.
I went to OATS in Oct 98, did an upgrade, shiny new CPL/IR, large dept, no job. luckly I had bugeted for an instructors rating as well. Got my first job through the ATP scheam in May 2000 for 18 months I had to keep current and renew my IR, I had bugeted for that as well.
If you think that a CPL/IR is the end of the story, you are wrong, very wrong. I todays market you have to keep that current and pay for the renewals. There are cheaper options out there, which may take longer to do, but in this market that is not a problem.
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Loony Pilot,
Care to expand on how you would have done it differently?? If you were starting your training in say 6 months, would you go down the modular route instead? . .I'm making the tough modular/integrated decision at the moment so any help would be great.
cheers,. .JT8
[ 10 February 2002: Message edited by: JT8 ]</p>
Care to expand on how you would have done it differently?? If you were starting your training in say 6 months, would you go down the modular route instead? . .I'm making the tough modular/integrated decision at the moment so any help would be great.
cheers,. .JT8
[ 10 February 2002: Message edited by: JT8 ]</p>
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These stories, and many others, bear out what WWW, IFR and myself have been saying for 5 months or so now. Right after 9/11 we all said, very loaudly, that you should not sign up for an integrated course at least until there were signs of the beginnings of a recovery in the hiring market. For those already committed, we commiserated and advised that all you could do once you graduated would be to return to your old job (if possible) and try and keep yourself current until things improved. We also suggested that the modular route would perhaps be the more sensible option, as you could tailor your eventual graduation to the inevitable upturn when it came. We estimated (in Sept/Oct last year) that that recovery would take between 18 months and 3 years.. .I have seen nothing that would make me change any of the above, and I have to wonder at the wisdom of those who are still signing up for integrated courses to start in the near future!. .As for the jobs market, I can't emphasise too strongly that the situation of the last couple of years, where 200hr fATPL-qualified candidates could reasonably hope to get jobs in a jet cockpit, was an aberration in aviation history, and is unlikely to be repeated any time soon. There is a large number of experienced, type-rated pilots to be absorbed and a new generation of air-taxi, FI, and night-freight experienced pilots being created right now. The airlines, when they do return to recruiting, will look to these experienced pilots first - and those that go out and get that kind of experience somehow, instead of waiting for that elusive jet job, will reap the reward in the future.. .For the next few years, the prospect of the newly-qualified fATPL getting a jet job is very small. The industry wants, and expects, you to go and get more experience on smaller aircraft - as was always the case in the past. This has great benefits both for the aspiring airline pilot and their future employers, so actually I can't say I'm disappointed that this will be the case.. .In the meantime, be very careful how and where you spend your money!
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high peak,. .to answer your question, there are many places airline pilots lurk! . .For anyone who has never met an airline pilot, I suggest you start looking. Of course, there are people on pprune who are happy to answer questions, indeed I have had a number of people e-mail me and I also speak to students on the phone sometimes.. .But the best thing is to start hanging around at your local flying club or gliding club. You will generally bump into airline pilots there. Not so long ago aspiring young pilots would spend most of their spare time hanging around clubs, gleaning what info they could and helping out around the place. Sometimes people would get paid employment there too. . .People get to know your face and sometimes you may be lucky enough to get some free flying time, or at the very least a passenger seat up front in a light single going off somewhere. Offer to help out, offer to be an extra set of eyes, or do the radio. Once you get known around the place you'll start to find out so much more. I think more recently people see it as beneath them. They don't leave their egos at the door, but carry them around with their shiny new flight cases and expensive headsets. You can usually spot those who have been involved in aviation a while - they are the ones with a tatty bag for a flightcase, a cheap but good headset, and not dressed in a shirt and chinos!!!!. .Ask around. If you find an airline pilot ask if it would be possible for you to have a short chat with him/her about life as an airline pilot. Make a definite arrangement if you can, rather than just asking them loads of questions there and then. That way you can prepare, think of questions that you can't get answered elsewhere. Ask the person about their job, the lifestyle it gives, how they got started, how their company is structured, what they look for in new recruits, the name of the Chief Pilot, whatever. But also treat it more formally, in that you should go well prepared and well dressed. That person may remember you, might see you around the club, and who knows, in the future, once you've got your licence, perhaps you may be able to get a jumpseat or get that person to take your CV in for you.. .There are ways of networking.. .Personally I am happy to help anyone who has already put the effort in. I do sometimes get people mailing me asking for the most basic of info, which is freely available here and on other websites. I tend not to respond. However, someone who is obviously keen, has done their research and has good questions, I am always happy to correspond with them.. .There are ways to start networking, just start thinking about it. Airline pilots were student pilots once and most remember vividly how difficult it is in the beginning.
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BillyFish2,
A JAR FI(R) rating will allow you to teach PPL and CPL straight off the bat. The course is 30 hrs flying plus test, plus loads of groundschool.
Coming from an integrated course you would have a better than most chance of getting an instructing job at one of the professional pilot FTO's ie. Oxford, Cabair, BAE where pay is slightly better, and it is CPL work. However, nothing wrong with PPL training, very similar to CPL anyway!
To teach instrument ratings (IR or IMC) you need to be unrestricted, and complete an upgrade course and test. Night ratings and aerobatics just require an upgrade course.
Good luck with your future flying
Barney
A JAR FI(R) rating will allow you to teach PPL and CPL straight off the bat. The course is 30 hrs flying plus test, plus loads of groundschool.
Coming from an integrated course you would have a better than most chance of getting an instructing job at one of the professional pilot FTO's ie. Oxford, Cabair, BAE where pay is slightly better, and it is CPL work. However, nothing wrong with PPL training, very similar to CPL anyway!
To teach instrument ratings (IR or IMC) you need to be unrestricted, and complete an upgrade course and test. Night ratings and aerobatics just require an upgrade course.
Good luck with your future flying
Barney
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Thanks Barney,
I think the way things are now and for the next 2 years or so, instructing is probably the best option really. Plus like Scroggs said earlier, someone with a year or two doing something like instructing (heading towards around 1000 hours) is going to be a much better pilot than anyone straight out of 200 hour ab-initio.
Teaching is a great learning experience. Years ago when I was funding the last couple of years of my eng. degree by teaching electronics, I went from knowing just enough to get my exams to being able to write the exam papers (and probably a text book too!) because I had to get up there and explain it and really actually know my stuff.
Of course I'd be well up for air-taxi or freight too. Who wouldn't?
[ 11 February 2002: Message edited by: BillyFish2 ]</p>
I think the way things are now and for the next 2 years or so, instructing is probably the best option really. Plus like Scroggs said earlier, someone with a year or two doing something like instructing (heading towards around 1000 hours) is going to be a much better pilot than anyone straight out of 200 hour ab-initio.
Teaching is a great learning experience. Years ago when I was funding the last couple of years of my eng. degree by teaching electronics, I went from knowing just enough to get my exams to being able to write the exam papers (and probably a text book too!) because I had to get up there and explain it and really actually know my stuff.
Of course I'd be well up for air-taxi or freight too. Who wouldn't?
[ 11 February 2002: Message edited by: BillyFish2 ]</p>
Barney,
You don't need to be unrestricted to instruct IMC: <a href="http://www.ais.org.uk/uk_aip/pdf/aic/4W369.PDF" target="_blank">http://www.ais.org.uk/uk_aip/pdf/aic/4W369.PDF</a>
Basically:
[quote] For an IMC instructors rating you need 50 hours IFR, IMC rating and complete a course with an FIC instructor, 5 hours flying and 35 hours ground,realistically it will usually take more than 5 hours cos of all the course teaching, e.g. G.H.full and ltd. panel, NDB hold, ILS, RADAR APPROACH, VOR tracking, HOLDING procedures, you also need to pass the flight test. <hr></blockquote>
You don't need to be unrestricted to instruct IMC: <a href="http://www.ais.org.uk/uk_aip/pdf/aic/4W369.PDF" target="_blank">http://www.ais.org.uk/uk_aip/pdf/aic/4W369.PDF</a>
Basically:
[quote] For an IMC instructors rating you need 50 hours IFR, IMC rating and complete a course with an FIC instructor, 5 hours flying and 35 hours ground,realistically it will usually take more than 5 hours cos of all the course teaching, e.g. G.H.full and ltd. panel, NDB hold, ILS, RADAR APPROACH, VOR tracking, HOLDING procedures, you also need to pass the flight test. <hr></blockquote>
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[quote] A JAR FI(R) rating will allow you to teach PPL and CPL straight off the bat. <hr></blockquote>
JAR-FCL 1.330(b) reads
the issue of a CPL(A) provided that the FI(A) has completed at least 500 hours of flight time as a pilot of aeroplanes including at least 200 hours of flight instruction
Not exactly 'straight off the bat'
JAR-FCL 1.330(b) reads
the issue of a CPL(A) provided that the FI(A) has completed at least 500 hours of flight time as a pilot of aeroplanes including at least 200 hours of flight instruction
Not exactly 'straight off the bat'
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rolling circle,
OK think I understand: I'll have 300 hours following 200 hour ab-initio (and 100 hours PPL few years ago), so if I got the FI qualification, I'd need at least 200 hours of PPL instruction minimum before CPL instruction?
[ 11 February 2002: Message edited by: BillyFish2 ]</p>
OK think I understand: I'll have 300 hours following 200 hour ab-initio (and 100 hours PPL few years ago), so if I got the FI qualification, I'd need at least 200 hours of PPL instruction minimum before CPL instruction?
[ 11 February 2002: Message edited by: BillyFish2 ]</p>
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I agree with the back to back modular route. I looked at OATS and got mucked around by a certain female marketing person there. Fortunately she put me off so much I went modular, and finished off at SFT. Saved me a chunk of money, and I still completed in 14 months. Fortunate to get a job one month later (April 2000). I think it is a very brave person who puts their money up now just for OATS on their CV!!
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Hate to add another dampener on things boys, but I've got an ISSUED ATPL, with all the boxes ticked, over 3000 hours, with almost 1000 on light piston twins..........and my CV's mostly are not even acknowleged, let alone get a sniff of a job!. .DON'T SIGN UP TO ANYTHING AT PRESENT!!
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Firstly I want to say that I do not intend to cause anyone offence by my views here, but I need to add my comments and thoughts.
I have been researching getting a frozen ATPL for nearly two years and have been studying in detail the threads on PPRUNE for over a month. This thread has been for me the most informative thread on the site - and I would like to thank Grandad Flyer & Scroggs for their comments.
I think that all the clues a wannabe needs about aviation and its future are right here on this thread. It seems ( especially from recent postings ) that there are a large number of self funded students that have simply not studied the aviation industry before embarking on training and are also wanting jobs straight away with the airlines ( How many of them applied for jobs such as charter flying, Flight instruction etc to build hours ). There are threads in PPRUNES archives that are over 12-18 months old that are already painting a dire picture for learning to fly, i.e. redundances, global economic slow down etc etc. Now I will be funding my own training ( partly my own savings and an unsecured loan ) and I am not a clever person but even I checked things out way before 11/9 and decided to hang on.
Now for my positive and optimistic views! There are other threads that suggest that flight trainging schools are only now starting to cut back on courses - I would firstly like to suggest that there were companies cutting back in Apr/may 2001 ( I know especially in US, AUS and NZ as I spoke to them ) and secondly is that not a good thing, not just for us wannabes but also the pilots that are currently out of work.
Something else I have noticed from another thread is that there are only approx 11500 UK commercial pilots? I can't believe thats the case - but if that is true then how many aircraft are there in the UK? I'm thinking about all the planes that can be making money ( i.e. banner towing, Cargo planes, Surveying, Biz Jets/Props, 747s etc etc ) if that is the case, then who is flying them ?There simply has to be more pilots - where can the true figures be found ?
Lastly, I would like to know if I have been miss informed on this ( or any of my veiws ), but I was told that a percentage ( possibly a much as 20% ) of the pilot reduncies from big airlines have been taken as early retirement? Now if thats wrong than fair enough my mistake, but hanging on to that thought - Summer time, things pick up and the laid off pilots re-employeed ( Fantastic ). End of summer and vacancies start to appear - who is going to fill them as a comment in this thread said that flight schools were cutting back so where are all the pilots going to come from ?
I remain optimistic about the future for flying and the best of luck to anyone who has made the leap. People who have given up their current careers in the last few months to train have given me the hope to pursue my dream. Like I said I didn't want to offend anyone - these are just my own views from talking to flight schools, pilots, press and PPRUNE.
P.S. One more thing I have found is that there are a huge number of people who want to take your money - do your research first. I have found only one flying school that I trust and they will get my business simply because of their honesty.
I have been researching getting a frozen ATPL for nearly two years and have been studying in detail the threads on PPRUNE for over a month. This thread has been for me the most informative thread on the site - and I would like to thank Grandad Flyer & Scroggs for their comments.
I think that all the clues a wannabe needs about aviation and its future are right here on this thread. It seems ( especially from recent postings ) that there are a large number of self funded students that have simply not studied the aviation industry before embarking on training and are also wanting jobs straight away with the airlines ( How many of them applied for jobs such as charter flying, Flight instruction etc to build hours ). There are threads in PPRUNES archives that are over 12-18 months old that are already painting a dire picture for learning to fly, i.e. redundances, global economic slow down etc etc. Now I will be funding my own training ( partly my own savings and an unsecured loan ) and I am not a clever person but even I checked things out way before 11/9 and decided to hang on.
Now for my positive and optimistic views! There are other threads that suggest that flight trainging schools are only now starting to cut back on courses - I would firstly like to suggest that there were companies cutting back in Apr/may 2001 ( I know especially in US, AUS and NZ as I spoke to them ) and secondly is that not a good thing, not just for us wannabes but also the pilots that are currently out of work.
Something else I have noticed from another thread is that there are only approx 11500 UK commercial pilots? I can't believe thats the case - but if that is true then how many aircraft are there in the UK? I'm thinking about all the planes that can be making money ( i.e. banner towing, Cargo planes, Surveying, Biz Jets/Props, 747s etc etc ) if that is the case, then who is flying them ?There simply has to be more pilots - where can the true figures be found ?
Lastly, I would like to know if I have been miss informed on this ( or any of my veiws ), but I was told that a percentage ( possibly a much as 20% ) of the pilot reduncies from big airlines have been taken as early retirement? Now if thats wrong than fair enough my mistake, but hanging on to that thought - Summer time, things pick up and the laid off pilots re-employeed ( Fantastic ). End of summer and vacancies start to appear - who is going to fill them as a comment in this thread said that flight schools were cutting back so where are all the pilots going to come from ?
I remain optimistic about the future for flying and the best of luck to anyone who has made the leap. People who have given up their current careers in the last few months to train have given me the hope to pursue my dream. Like I said I didn't want to offend anyone - these are just my own views from talking to flight schools, pilots, press and PPRUNE.
P.S. One more thing I have found is that there are a huge number of people who want to take your money - do your research first. I have found only one flying school that I trust and they will get my business simply because of their honesty.
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You know when i first posted this note i was trying to find out why people are not applying for the jobs that flash at the top of the screen. I've sat back and watched it every day with some dam interesting points getting thrown back and forth. I know what i want to do now!
Can i also just add a little something?
I work for worlds oldest travel agent and yes i was laid off post 11/09. Got a little phone call in december cos things were starting to get busy and my god, it is dam hectic at work at the moment. Just to give you a little hope, everything is target orientated. I achieved target 184%! Others as much as 215%! Now you cant say things arent picking up! one thing and this i think is the most important thing,
demand for seats on flights is far greater than the amount of seats available due to the amount of routes axed. BA for example have put all seats on a request basis due to the high volume of demand. Personally, i think alot of airlines have shot themselves in the foot with the lay offs! My company has, and is trying its dam hardest to get 160 old and new employees back in the door. Things are looking up and i WILL be staring flying training within the next 2 years and it will be the "Worlds Favourite Airline" who's calling me!
Good luck guys!
Kempus
Can i also just add a little something?
I work for worlds oldest travel agent and yes i was laid off post 11/09. Got a little phone call in december cos things were starting to get busy and my god, it is dam hectic at work at the moment. Just to give you a little hope, everything is target orientated. I achieved target 184%! Others as much as 215%! Now you cant say things arent picking up! one thing and this i think is the most important thing,
demand for seats on flights is far greater than the amount of seats available due to the amount of routes axed. BA for example have put all seats on a request basis due to the high volume of demand. Personally, i think alot of airlines have shot themselves in the foot with the lay offs! My company has, and is trying its dam hardest to get 160 old and new employees back in the door. Things are looking up and i WILL be staring flying training within the next 2 years and it will be the "Worlds Favourite Airline" who's calling me!
Good luck guys!
Kempus