About Oxford A.T need to make up my mind
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You want facts my boy?
PT Flea
Ah, I forgot BAe's recent price rise. It was about £54K including food and accommodation, but as Red Ice says it is now about £60K. There must be punishing inflation in Spain as well as Oxfordshire.
OATS on the other hand are quoting £60K + £12K food and accommodation = £72K
That's still a £12K premium……for what?
My comment about the APP selection; not elegantly phrased! Most APP applicants who are eligible for cadet schemes will previously have applied for sponsorship and been rejected, before contemplating paying for training themselves with no job at the end of it. If the APP selection was as discriminating as cadet scheme selection, none of them would pass it. However, there is a strong incentive for OATS to let people pass so they can overcharge them for an integrated course. Of course they will not lower the selection standards - everyone will fail it, except those who were ineligible for the various sponsorship schemes.......
Ah, I forgot BAe's recent price rise. It was about £54K including food and accommodation, but as Red Ice says it is now about £60K. There must be punishing inflation in Spain as well as Oxfordshire.
OATS on the other hand are quoting £60K + £12K food and accommodation = £72K
That's still a £12K premium……for what?
My comment about the APP selection; not elegantly phrased! Most APP applicants who are eligible for cadet schemes will previously have applied for sponsorship and been rejected, before contemplating paying for training themselves with no job at the end of it. If the APP selection was as discriminating as cadet scheme selection, none of them would pass it. However, there is a strong incentive for OATS to let people pass so they can overcharge them for an integrated course. Of course they will not lower the selection standards - everyone will fail it, except those who were ineligible for the various sponsorship schemes.......
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Tonyblair,
Yes you're right, I suspect some applicants for the OAT APP will have applied for sponsorship and not been successful. That is not to frown on anyone who has not made it through a sponsorship selection like the vast majority of wannabe's do.
I understand that it is probably not in their interests to make the entrance requirements on selection that high...initially.
If we think carefully about the APP procedure then it is not in their interests to take on any one who should be sitting in the corner with a dunce's hat on either, for consider:
OAT APP have come up with an arrangement with a high street bank. Apparently, passing the selection procedure and embarking on the APP course makes a statement to the banks that this student 'is not only extremely likely to complete the course but is also quite likely to get employed'. Now either:
1. OAT don't care about the loan being repaid, as long as they will give it to the cadet so they can embark on the course. or
2. OAT have persuaded the bank (banks are not easily persuaded to part with money might I hastely add) to give the dosh by disclosing something to the banks about the chances of employment that they won't tell us yet.
Now if people start failing the course left, right and centre because they never had the aptitude in the first place then the banks are going to get a bit pissed off that the 'carefully screened' student can't start paying the loan back. Additionally if people start coming off the course and there is absolutley no improvement in employment stats then the banks are also going to get very pissed off. In fact with a double wammy like that they may just pull their support all together and so the APP will go down the toilet. So it is not directly in OAT's interests to let Tom, Dick or Harry through.
Let's face the whole point of the APP is like a sponsorship without the airline. It's to let people that haven't got the money a chance to get into the airlines by helping them get the money.
How do they help them get the money, by convinving the bank that they are likely to pass the course (this may be true). They have also convinced the banks that the cadets are more likely to get employed at the end of the APP (I'm still not convinced on this one).
ARRRRGGGGH!
I just don't understand it. What is the extra 12k for?
PT
Yes you're right, I suspect some applicants for the OAT APP will have applied for sponsorship and not been successful. That is not to frown on anyone who has not made it through a sponsorship selection like the vast majority of wannabe's do.
I understand that it is probably not in their interests to make the entrance requirements on selection that high...initially.
If we think carefully about the APP procedure then it is not in their interests to take on any one who should be sitting in the corner with a dunce's hat on either, for consider:
OAT APP have come up with an arrangement with a high street bank. Apparently, passing the selection procedure and embarking on the APP course makes a statement to the banks that this student 'is not only extremely likely to complete the course but is also quite likely to get employed'. Now either:
1. OAT don't care about the loan being repaid, as long as they will give it to the cadet so they can embark on the course. or
2. OAT have persuaded the bank (banks are not easily persuaded to part with money might I hastely add) to give the dosh by disclosing something to the banks about the chances of employment that they won't tell us yet.
Now if people start failing the course left, right and centre because they never had the aptitude in the first place then the banks are going to get a bit pissed off that the 'carefully screened' student can't start paying the loan back. Additionally if people start coming off the course and there is absolutley no improvement in employment stats then the banks are also going to get very pissed off. In fact with a double wammy like that they may just pull their support all together and so the APP will go down the toilet. So it is not directly in OAT's interests to let Tom, Dick or Harry through.
Let's face the whole point of the APP is like a sponsorship without the airline. It's to let people that haven't got the money a chance to get into the airlines by helping them get the money.
How do they help them get the money, by convinving the bank that they are likely to pass the course (this may be true). They have also convinced the banks that the cadets are more likely to get employed at the end of the APP (I'm still not convinced on this one).
ARRRRGGGGH!
I just don't understand it. What is the extra 12k for?
PT
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I have just remember that they include 10 hours of Jet Orientation Training at OAT APP to reduce the risk of failing a type rating. This is worth at least £5000. They also include a lot of proffesional development lectures throughout. Plus the supposed added career development support at the end of the course and for the rest of your working life as a pilot. I suppose you're paying for the name a bit and for going on a course that the airlines have directly inputted into and are directly interested in.
In fact for a complete list of what is included go here:
http://www.oxfordapp.com/structure.htm
http://www.oxfordapp.com/app_cost.htm
PT
In fact for a complete list of what is included go here:
http://www.oxfordapp.com/structure.htm
http://www.oxfordapp.com/app_cost.htm
PT
Last edited by P T Flea; 31st Jan 2003 at 21:34.
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Boeing 737-400 JOT Synthetic Flight Training (Oxford)
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Debate Rages
Sorry for jumping on the end of this one.
I have been umming and arring about whether or not to use OAT for Modular/distance ATPLs and subsequent CPL/IR/MCC.
Its terrifying to think I am about to spend £30000 on an organisation that has so many people slagging it off. If this was a £30000 buisness deal I would have run a mile by now!
Can OAT really be so dodgy? If so where the hell else do I go? One of the unknowns?
Even at this early stage in my carreer, I realise that neither OAT or anyone else is going to find a job for me. I am the only one who can do that. I really don't care what I fly either.
My Questions are ;
Is OAT a top notch provider of the ATPL?
Why are they more expensive than most other companies?
I have been umming and arring about whether or not to use OAT for Modular/distance ATPLs and subsequent CPL/IR/MCC.
Its terrifying to think I am about to spend £30000 on an organisation that has so many people slagging it off. If this was a £30000 buisness deal I would have run a mile by now!
Can OAT really be so dodgy? If so where the hell else do I go? One of the unknowns?
Even at this early stage in my carreer, I realise that neither OAT or anyone else is going to find a job for me. I am the only one who can do that. I really don't care what I fly either.
My Questions are ;
Is OAT a top notch provider of the ATPL?
Why are they more expensive than most other companies?
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I am just in the process of using OATs for the ATPL groundschool (Distance) but will carry on Modular for the rest. It was down to them and Bristol and OATs won on convience to get there in the end.
I have to say its an interesting argument but one thing is Gareth is talking out of his @rse with his Oxford/Cambridge and ex-poly analogy! I have interviews lots of applicants for my profession (engineering before you ask) and we have have hopefuls come through the door with 1sts on paper. When you talk to them you find out that if that if isnt exactly how they have been taught or how it reads in the text book then they go to pieces and cant cope!
So coming from a Uni or somewhere with a top class name doesnt count for anything at the end of the day ... it comes down to can you PERSONALLY deliver!
I have to say its an interesting argument but one thing is Gareth is talking out of his @rse with his Oxford/Cambridge and ex-poly analogy! I have interviews lots of applicants for my profession (engineering before you ask) and we have have hopefuls come through the door with 1sts on paper. When you talk to them you find out that if that if isnt exactly how they have been taught or how it reads in the text book then they go to pieces and cant cope!
So coming from a Uni or somewhere with a top class name doesnt count for anything at the end of the day ... it comes down to can you PERSONALLY deliver!
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I have just been looking around for the cost of modular courses. I have found this page on the Oxford site that details the 'Oxford Classic Package'. So for the cost of £27k you get ATPL ground, CPL/IR/MCC
http://www.oxfordaviation.net/oxford/modular/newmod.htm
So what is missing there? I thought that the whole lot up to that level costs in the region of 40-60k?
If you were to do that modular course would you emmerge with a frozen ATPL?
I must be missing something.
Thanks for any help.
PT
http://www.oxfordaviation.net/oxford/modular/newmod.htm
So what is missing there? I thought that the whole lot up to that level costs in the region of 40-60k?
If you were to do that modular course would you emmerge with a frozen ATPL?
I must be missing something.
Thanks for any help.
PT
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Modular assumes a level of experience that integrated does not , PPL / IMC followed by hours building or ex-military , for example .
High Wing Drifter makes an interesting point about type-ratings following JOT/MCC training - I know of people who have had type-rating training discontinued by their sponsors following succesfully completing JOT - they just couldn't cope in the actual sim . With 200 odd hours piston experience , many find the transition to jets a struggle .
High Wing Drifter makes an interesting point about type-ratings following JOT/MCC training - I know of people who have had type-rating training discontinued by their sponsors following succesfully completing JOT - they just couldn't cope in the actual sim . With 200 odd hours piston experience , many find the transition to jets a struggle .
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Still not convinced PTF
£5,000 for 10 hrs in the OAT 'sim'. You have to be kidding. It's not a sim, its an FNPT 2 MCC. There was a thread explaining all about if some while back. If I remember correctly, there are 3 types of synthetic trainers: Full Flight Simulators, which are type specific and can be used for type rating and everything; FFS have to have full motion. Then there are Flight Training Devices, also type specific and they can be used for half the hours for a type rating, rating renewals etc; FTDs are usually fixed-base. At the bottom of the pile are FNPTs, which can be used for licence training and MCC only. They are generic and may have a passing resemblance to a particular type, but don’t have to have accurate representation of the systems, performance etc.
The OATS FNPT is another con - they pretend it is a simulator and a B737-400. In fact it is a generic FNPT 2, based loosely on the B737-400, with a motion system. I would have fallen for that con if a well informed friend had not pointed it out to me.
Apparently, current type FFS time costs £500/hour. FNPT 2s are worth about £120/hour.
I wouldn't be so anti this course if it were competitively priced and OATS were honest about what you are getting for your money. But like you, PT Flea, I cannot see any justification for the inflated price whatsoever.
(I hope I have all those facts right, or I'm about to get flamed again!)
The OATS FNPT is another con - they pretend it is a simulator and a B737-400. In fact it is a generic FNPT 2, based loosely on the B737-400, with a motion system. I would have fallen for that con if a well informed friend had not pointed it out to me.
Apparently, current type FFS time costs £500/hour. FNPT 2s are worth about £120/hour.
I wouldn't be so anti this course if it were competitively priced and OATS were honest about what you are getting for your money. But like you, PT Flea, I cannot see any justification for the inflated price whatsoever.
(I hope I have all those facts right, or I'm about to get flamed again!)
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Hi all,
In response to the original question:
I completed the Integrated ATPL course at Oxford quite recently and am now flying B757.
Yes, they got me through my exams and SOME of their instructors are first class and my fellow students were some of the nicest people I have ever met. However, our course made formal complaints against the school on more than one occasion due to the unsatisfactory standard of service. I have spoken to other students since my time at Oxford and I have heard of similar discontent. It appeared that the problems stemmed from the middle management/CGI.
The second point is whether having the Oxford 'name' on your CV will put you in a better position for employment. I imagine this comes down to the indiviual who is doing the recruiting but most people in the industry seem to indicate that as long as you have the relevant qualification that is all that matters. The same applies for a Modular or Integrated course. Holding the JAA license is ultimately the only thing people look for.
I'm sorry to be so derogatory but I would hate to see anyone else pay the significantly higher fees that Oxford require only to be disappointed.
In response to the original question:
I completed the Integrated ATPL course at Oxford quite recently and am now flying B757.
Yes, they got me through my exams and SOME of their instructors are first class and my fellow students were some of the nicest people I have ever met. However, our course made formal complaints against the school on more than one occasion due to the unsatisfactory standard of service. I have spoken to other students since my time at Oxford and I have heard of similar discontent. It appeared that the problems stemmed from the middle management/CGI.
The second point is whether having the Oxford 'name' on your CV will put you in a better position for employment. I imagine this comes down to the indiviual who is doing the recruiting but most people in the industry seem to indicate that as long as you have the relevant qualification that is all that matters. The same applies for a Modular or Integrated course. Holding the JAA license is ultimately the only thing people look for.
I'm sorry to be so derogatory but I would hate to see anyone else pay the significantly higher fees that Oxford require only to be disappointed.
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Oxford have created the APP scheme in competion to CTC's sponsorship scheme. They will no doubt state that it was developed in concert with potential customer airlines, though said customer airlines seem notably thin on the ground. Having said that, I'm sure it's a good course but I personally believe that CTC's is the better package. The course (not the school) may well make a difference if it removes cost and risk for an employer, and I believe that CTC's course scores more highly in this area than OAT's. (Discuss!) But there have to be jobs out there to go to, and currently there are very few!
I'd echo WWW's advice. Don't get suckered by marketing hype - no school can get you a job that doesn't exist. Widen your horizons beyond jets. Don't let other wannabes' impressive but misguided arguments, entirely based on assumption, deflect you from the normal, rational process you go through when making any big purchase. Make sure you get what you pay for; if OAT (or anyone else) makes claims that they can't substantiate, walk away.
If you can, delay your entry into training until the fallout from Bush vs the Middle East (the sequel) has settled and the future is beginning to look clearer. For sure, there will be an effect on airlines and their recruiting!
Scroggs
Virgin/Wannabes Moderator
[email protected]
I'd echo WWW's advice. Don't get suckered by marketing hype - no school can get you a job that doesn't exist. Widen your horizons beyond jets. Don't let other wannabes' impressive but misguided arguments, entirely based on assumption, deflect you from the normal, rational process you go through when making any big purchase. Make sure you get what you pay for; if OAT (or anyone else) makes claims that they can't substantiate, walk away.
If you can, delay your entry into training until the fallout from Bush vs the Middle East (the sequel) has settled and the future is beginning to look clearer. For sure, there will be an effect on airlines and their recruiting!
Scroggs
Virgin/Wannabes Moderator
[email protected]
