Making the leap from PPL to CPL

[cinman]

I wonder if anyone else has had similar experiences to mine to date?

I am working through my PPL(A) at Biggin Hill and expect to complete by Summer '03. When done, I intend to move straight across the void to ATPL study, etc. until I achieve a frozen ATPL.

I find the following to be the case:

1. Money is the KEY enabler
2. Incrowd opportunity sharing
3. Element of elitism

I really do not mean to sound negative here, but training in the UK is absolutely proposterous - to the extent that its effectively reserved for the rich. Why is it so much cheaper abroad? Why is it over £2K for the ground study ATPL at CabAir when you can purchase all study materials from Oxford Aviation for £600?

Why do I get strange feedback from pilots who generally try to put me off?

I am 34yrs old and I suspect people misinterpret my fascination and career goals as some kind of early-middle aged wonderlust, but with kids, wife, mortgage, etc. there are enough hurdles already in the way without my apparent, soon-to-be colleagues trying to put me off.

When I qualify as a flight intructor, to share my experiences, build my hours and self-finance further training, I'll do absolutely everything I can to help wannabes to come up into the system - lets enjoy the experiences, the role, the knowledge, ultimately the flying and share it - not hog it and get all "ivory tower" about it - it only sends out the wrong message(s).

Anyway - that's my winge over for now - anyone want to help me find zillions of pounds to pay for the next bout of training? No? Thought not

As a matter of interest, does anyone train in a Robin 3000? I'm doing so from Biggin Hill and wondered if anyone had experiences to share? I'm 6.3hrs through the PPL(A) to date (delayed recently due to very bad stretch of weather).

[28thJuly2001]

I have read many messages from'wannabes' and have heard nothing but 'go for it' from the pprune community.
I think you are starting off on the road to your ATPL with the wrong attitude, you only have 6 hours under your belt and you are already whingeing about the obstacles to overcome, the cost, ignorance, the attitudes of professionals.
FACTS.
It will cost you shed loads of cash.
It will cost you every second of your spare time.
It will be a sh*t load of grief.
You will be working for poverty wages for many years instructing.

If you haven't understood the above, even at 6 hours, maybe you ARE doing it for the wrong reasons.
You fly because you LOVE to fly, it's in your blood, your every waking moment and not because one day you might be Concorde Captain with a shiny uniform.

I am only a humble PPL with 100 hours and no intention of pursuing it as a career, I am happy with my lot and my weekly jaunts from here to there and back again. So do whatever makes YOU happy whether it's PPL, ATPL or trainspotting, your doing it for yourself and not for other people.

28th,,

[FlyingForFun]

I agree completely with 28th.

One of the main reasons flying is more expensive in the UK than abroad is the cost of aviation fuel. If you're not happy about that, then you need to speak to your MP and get him to lobby Government. Good luck - many millions of motorists haven't been successful, so I doubt if a few thousand pilots will be!

But you were asking specifically about ATPL ground school. The reason why all schools will charge more than the cost of the materials, even for distance learning, is because you get a lot more than the materials. You get 4 weeks (with most schools) of intensive on-site classroom studying. You get instructors who are always just a phone-call or an e-mail away to help you out if you get stuck. You get progress tests marked and sample answers sent to you. All of this costs money. I do not believe that ATPL ground school costs are a rip-off at all (unlike the cost of fuel).

Many of the negative vibes you may be hearing are related to the reality of life after training. You say "When I qualify as a flight intructor... I'll do absolutely everything I can to help wannabes to come up into the system". You seem to have missed the vital step between qualifying as a flight instructor, and being hired to work as flight instructor. Currently there are thousands of experienced pilots out there, a large proportion of whom are qualified flight instructors but can't find work - what will make you any different?

I have never heard any negative comments directed towards anyone who is training to become a pilot at any kind of level. All you will hear, here or anywhere else, is a mixture of encourament and realism. If you view this realism as elitism, then you've mis-interpreted it. Getting your ATPL(f) is not easy, getting a job is even harder, and everyone on this forum is here to offer you advice and help along the way. But you must not begin this adventure without understanding the risks - especially if you have a wife, kids and a mortgage. If, after reading all of this, you decide to continue (and I think you will, because you sound like you've been bitten by the bug already!) then we will all be here to share the good moment with you, and help you through the bad moments.

Good luck!

FFF
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[cinman]

Yikes ...

I think I may have lost a lot in the words here ... (always a risk with textual comms methods I believe).

I was trying to highlight some genuinely restricting factors to see if anyone else had experienced similar - and absolutely not having any kind of "dig" whatsoever at the flying community. Blimey - I want to join said community a.s.a.p., which is why I've already passed 3 exams in two months (that's part time mind, not full time) which is damn tricky with wife, kids, familly, blah, blah

Am totally committed - angry a little at the UK weather that's stopping me from getting up there, but totally up for PPL(A) achievement - then beyond!!

As a matter of interest, does anyone have any experience of using the Oxford Aviation manual sets from Transair (the ATPL set) as £600 is a lot of money and I don't want to spend it, thinking I'm making a saving, when in fact its a false economy?

Thanks for your anticipated feedback.

[Andy_R]

Pointless getting angry at the inclement UK weather, you will get used to it. But I agree it is somewhat frustrating.

Only my opinion but my advice would be to not worry too much about the cost of ATPL manuals until you have the PPL under your belt and the requisite hours to start. Patience is definitely a virtue in this game!! And yes I do appreciate the fact that the years march on, being a couple of years older than you!!

[FlyingForFun]

Hi cinman,

Sorry for the wordy reply - I was only answering the questions you asked, though - honestly!

Don't bother with the ATPL notes. You have to complete an ATPL course at a registered school before you can sit the exams. And all registered schools will supply you with notes as part of the cost of the course. So if you buy the notes now, you'll only have to buy another set later. Complete waste of money.

(The notes are useful for two groups of people. There are a very small number of people who are exempt from having to do an approved course, e.g. because they already have an ATPL from another country. And some people enroll on a course but find the notes are sub-standard, and so they then buy a different set of notes to supliment their studies - but if you do your research and go to a good school that won't be necessary and you'll save yourself some money.)

Not sure if Private Flying is the right place for this question, though. The general rule is that if it related to a PPL, or using a PPL, it belongs in Private Flying. If it relates to anything to do with getting a job, including CPL and ATPL studies, post-PPL, it belongs in Wannabes. Not really a problem, it's just that if you follow these rules you'll be targetting the right audience, and probably getting a bigger response.

FFF
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[Whirlybird]

cinman,

Yes, for what it's worth, I did get quite a lot of negative comments, and picked up even more negative vibes, when considering a CPL(H). I reckon it was either because I'm female, or because I'm older than the average wannabe (wrong side of 40 ). But once I got to ground school it was fine, and as soon as I'd passed a few exams people started to take me seriously. A lot of wannabes, especially older ones, do fall by the wayside; maybe that's the reason for it. I've actually had loads of encouragement from the people who really matter; ignore the rest of them. But what everyone's saying is true - it will cost you shedloads of money, be tons of work, and there may be no job at the end of it. I love flying, had most of the dosh, and wanted to do it for the challenge anyway. But let's be realistic about this; if I'd had any common sense at all I'd have spent the money on something sensible and stayed as a PPL.

Having said that, if you want to go for it, I wish you lots of luck.

[slim_slag]

fff

One of the main reasons flying is more expensive in the UK than abroad is the cost of aviation fuel.

But how "main"?

Rough figures...

250 hrs to CPL, burn average of 10gph on the way = 2500 gallons of fuel.

UK, US$5 per gallon = US$13k
US, US$2 per gallon = US$5k

Thats US$7k more in England.

In US, can get your CPL for US$25k
In UK, sounds like more like US$65k

Thats US$40k more in England.

So where is the missing US$35k? I may have some numbers wrong, but there is a big hole there which fuel doesn't fill.

Cheers

[28thJuly2001]

You pay more for the quality you receive with British training, the British instructors are far more intelligent than the Americans and have far superior aircraft and excellent airport facilities, as opposed to the Yank and his beaten up Cessna flown from a corn field.

<<<<<<I'm Joking...Look smileys...Honest it's a joke...jeeesh no sense of humour also.

28th,,

[distaff_beancounter]

extra costs in UK

All training aircraft in the UK, have to be maintained to Public Transport Certificate of Airworthiness, but not in the USA, or most other EU countries.

Most aircraft spares are more expensive in the UK. Maintenance labour costs are higher in the UK.

Both new & used aircraft cost more to buy in the UK, than the USA.

On the whole instructors in the UK, for both PPL & CPL, are paid more than their counterparts in the USA. (One could argue that they should be, as they have paid more for thier training, in the first place.)

All flight training in the UK carries VAT at 17.5%. Sales tax in the USA varies from state to state, but it is always a lot lower than 17.5%.

[FlyingForFun]

Slim_slag, I think your numbers are slightly wrong.

Firstly, Avgas in the UK is currently around £1/litre, or £4/US gallon, which works out at well over $6/gallon. Secondly, it is possible to do a module ATPL(f) course for around £30k, which is around $48k. Also, I suspect tax will need to be added to many of the US prices you're quoting - am I right in thinking you have to add tax to any solo time?

I'm not sure we're comparing apples with apples, anyway. A CPL on its own really is very little use in the UK. Most people like to quote figures for an ATPL(f), including a CPL, IR, multi-engine, and multi-crew cooperation course. I've included all of this in my £30K estimate (which is a minimum figure, by the way - but aren't all quotes for aviation training minimums? ) Can you clarify exactly what you'd get for $25K in the US?

I'm sure there are still some price discrepencies. I rented a PA18 in the US for around $60/hr+tax, it costs me £100/hr ($160) to rent the same aircraft at home. Given a fuel burn of 8 US gallons/hr, that accounts for $32 of the difference, the tax will acount for a little more, the fact that everything is more expensive in London than anywhere else in the UK, and my club isn't the cheapest in London, would account for some more (does anyone happen to know a rental price for a PA18 outside London?) That still leaves some of the difference to be accounted for - but I think the biggest single factor is the cost of fuel.

Cheers,

FFF
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[slim_slag]

fff

Well, wouldn't be the first time my numbers were wrong! But even using your $6 per gallon price, it doesn't add up to the difference between the two countries.

As there is no such thing as a fATPL in the US (and if truth be known, you only have an ICAO CPL), we cannot compare like with like, but the question was PPL->CPL.

Let me throw out some realistic figures for zero to Commercial Pilot-Multi Engine Land-Instrument in the US, and as I know where you like to rent in the US and the instruction there is the best you will find, lets use their prices (block). Sales tax of 8% included in solo rental, not charged on instruction rental. Instruction at US$38 per hour (again block rate).

VFR Warrior: Solo US$61. Dual US$95.
IFR Warrior: Solo US$71. Dual US$104
Super Cub: Solo US$63 Dual US$96
Twin Dual: US$200
Arrow: Solo US$103 Dual US$134

And lets have fun along the way, lets spend 20 hours getting checked out in a Great Lakes Biplane.

2TIA-2 Dual US$180

Lets also head to the Colorado river, spend a night in the casinos, and get your sea plane rating (5 hours, US$800 out of the door)

So....


PPL in a super cub/VFR Warrior. 40 hours dual, 25 hours solo = $5400.

Hour build in VFR Warrior/Super Cub. 75 hours = $4300

IR in warrior, 40 hours dual, 20 hours solo = US$5600

Great Lakes Checkout. 20 hours, $3600
Sea Plane rating (PP-ASES), 5 hours, US$800

Now have 225 hours.

CP-ASEL in Arrow, 15 hours dual, 15 hours solo US$3500

CP-AMEL with IR. 15 hours Dual: US$3000

Add $1000 for quizzes, and $1000 for books/headsets/gear etc

So, 265 hours later, you are CP-AMEL/IR, PP-ASES and can solo an aerobatics taildragger biplane.

Grand total - around US$28000, so a little bit higher than I first said - but I was assuming CPL in a single. Knock off the CPL in a twin, and you have around $25k.

For the hell of it lets round it up to $30k.

BUT this is actually quite extravagant.

If you joined one of the even cheaper clubs at Montgomery Field San Diego (no sales tax on club rentals there), or did it in 200 hours under part 141, or didn't do the ASES and aerobatics add ons, you could easily get CP-AMEL/IR for under $25k. Also mine are high realistic figures for instruction, most average students could do it in less dual and do extra hour building in a cub for US$62.

Also, under the US system, you can split the cost of rentals by one person being under the hood and the other being safety pilot. You might disagree with the principle, but it's legal, and will take your hour building cost per hour down to the mid $30 range.

Hmm, better add another grand for losses at the blackjack table, that sea rating is more expensive than I thought!

Cheers

[liverbird]

try www.flyaaa.com

[batty]

Cinman

Back to your question. I started flying late in life as you are,however I dont feel people are being overly negative, more so realistic.

1) The current climate within the industry is one of ressession- Fact
2) There are not many jobs about for low airtime pilots -Fact (and that includes flying instruction, which is poorly paid especially for a guy with a mortgage and kids!)
3) The older you are with low hours the harder it is to get a job -Fact
4) Schools need to survive and will overly inflate the job market in order to get fee paying students through the door.

The point of Prune is to vent opinions on the industry and try and help people come to reasoned decisions through knowledge.

Having done 3 PPL exams in 2 months part time and comparing it to ATPL shows a lack of understanding as to the reality of the scope and depth of the ATPL. Its like comparing the old CSE to a Degree!

You also seem to have a complete lack of understanding as to the method and requirements of obtaining the ATPL. It is not a matter of just buying the books and self study, there is a legal requirement for some serveral hundred hours of approved groundschool study. Hence the difference in your prices.

Having decided with 6.3 hours that this is your career path I would suggest you do some research and pay heed to some of these 'elitists' that have far more experience than you, they may save you alot of money and heartache.

[Maximum]

I'm 6.3hrs through the PPL(A) to date

there are enough hurdles already in the way without my apparent, soon-to-be colleagues trying to put me off.

Why do I get strange feedback from pilots who generally try to put me off?

Well, you make it sound like all you need is the desire, some books, a bit of study, do the course....and hey presto! Professional pilot!

Those of us who have earned the right to our ivory towers will give you realistic feedback, which may sound negative to you, but which actually comes from hard experience. You don't know what it's really like to earn a living as a pilot - we do.

soon-to-be colleagues

You're a goddam student PPL with 6.3 hours! Why are you planning what you'll do when you're an instructor??? Please, just take it step by step.

There's nothing more irritating in my book than a student who doesn't act like one. It's like the new first officer I'm training who tells me all the things he's going to do differently when he's a captain - maybe even when he's in management - and he can't yet even hack a single engine go-around.

Best student - capable but slightly underconfident.

I wish you all the best in your flying, but remember those of us who earn our living doing this have earned the right to be somewhat "testy" with our flying "juniors". Think of us as crusty old seadogs and you'll get the idea.