Misplaced optimism and the 'where should I train' syndrome ...
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Misplaced optimism and the 'where should I train' syndrome ...
Maybe it's just me being a miserable bastard, but I've been increasingly concerned lately at the incredible levels of optimism of a lot of people here who are about to get into training and all the incessant chatter about "where should I train to have the best chance of a job as soon as I graduate?". Just looking at that other thread of foghorn's about the BALPA conference, and it appears to me that quite a few people are showing an extreme reluctance to accept the fact that there will be SOD ALL chance of a newbie getting a job in 12 or even 24 months time, no matter WHERE you learned to fly.
You lot who are looking to get into training right now, well I would never say don't do it, but I really feel you should be asking yourselves some hard questions, not along the lines of 'where should I train to maximise my extremely remote chance of getting a right hand seat in 2003', but rather 'how can I start my training now and ensure that I can still be employable in 2006 -7 should it be necessary'.
The truth is that, depending on how things go with George Dubbya, it could be quite late in this decade before the next hiring boom, and by that stage 'where you trained' isn't going to come into it if you learned to fly back in good old 2002.
The trouble is in this current situation, with no one being quite sure when hiring will resume is that it's all about currency, especially if you're a low timer trying to get airline jobs. If you only have 250 hours to start with and you haven't flown for 2 or 3 years, then it doesn't matter where you trained you're not going to look that attractive to the airlines. Obviously people who have a few thousand hours, especially if it's IFR multi engine hours, can afford to go uncurrent a bit longer without their entire skills base going down the pan.
Now it seems to me that you could go and blow off 60,000 quid on an integrated course now, The USA could kick off the next world war and all of a sudden we're looking at another 3 or 4 years of no airline hiring (and you having more or less forgotten how to fly by the end of it).
Or, you could go spend your 35 or 40 grand on the modular thing and then allow in your budget to spend 2 or 3 or even 5 grand a year keeping everything current and gradually improving your skills.
Sure, it might not even be necessary ... but then again it might. I have at least a couple of my former students who graduated last year who are pretty much at their wits end, one of them is about to quit his flying instructor job because he can no longer service his massive career development loan on flying instructor wages, the other one is working and can't afford to keep current, I can see them both rapidly losing their flying skills and becoming unemployable unless something spectacular happens in the hiring market VERY soon ... and we all know that it's not going to
Sorry for being so negative but I am just trying to inject a bit of reality into the situation, when I log onto this board and I still see people happily talking away about spending huge sums of money on flight training because of the 'retirement bulge' or god help us 'the predicted pilot shortage'
as though nothing's happened in the last 12 months, I really start to worry.
You lot who are looking to get into training right now, well I would never say don't do it, but I really feel you should be asking yourselves some hard questions, not along the lines of 'where should I train to maximise my extremely remote chance of getting a right hand seat in 2003', but rather 'how can I start my training now and ensure that I can still be employable in 2006 -7 should it be necessary'.
The truth is that, depending on how things go with George Dubbya, it could be quite late in this decade before the next hiring boom, and by that stage 'where you trained' isn't going to come into it if you learned to fly back in good old 2002.
The trouble is in this current situation, with no one being quite sure when hiring will resume is that it's all about currency, especially if you're a low timer trying to get airline jobs. If you only have 250 hours to start with and you haven't flown for 2 or 3 years, then it doesn't matter where you trained you're not going to look that attractive to the airlines. Obviously people who have a few thousand hours, especially if it's IFR multi engine hours, can afford to go uncurrent a bit longer without their entire skills base going down the pan.
Now it seems to me that you could go and blow off 60,000 quid on an integrated course now, The USA could kick off the next world war and all of a sudden we're looking at another 3 or 4 years of no airline hiring (and you having more or less forgotten how to fly by the end of it).
Or, you could go spend your 35 or 40 grand on the modular thing and then allow in your budget to spend 2 or 3 or even 5 grand a year keeping everything current and gradually improving your skills.
Sure, it might not even be necessary ... but then again it might. I have at least a couple of my former students who graduated last year who are pretty much at their wits end, one of them is about to quit his flying instructor job because he can no longer service his massive career development loan on flying instructor wages, the other one is working and can't afford to keep current, I can see them both rapidly losing their flying skills and becoming unemployable unless something spectacular happens in the hiring market VERY soon ... and we all know that it's not going to
Sorry for being so negative but I am just trying to inject a bit of reality into the situation, when I log onto this board and I still see people happily talking away about spending huge sums of money on flight training because of the 'retirement bulge' or god help us 'the predicted pilot shortage'
as though nothing's happened in the last 12 months, I really start to worry.
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Blunt........ but so right.
Somebody called it "Ive got 60k so I belong in the RHS of a large Jet syndrome".
Anybody thinking about starting training should seriously consider whether or not its wise.
Anybody instructing should look after your students royally (as ever) and look after that job......also we should moan less about instructing....hey its a job and it keeps us current
We all need to wake up a bit.
Somebody called it "Ive got 60k so I belong in the RHS of a large Jet syndrome".
Anybody thinking about starting training should seriously consider whether or not its wise.
Anybody instructing should look after your students royally (as ever) and look after that job......also we should moan less about instructing....hey its a job and it keeps us current
We all need to wake up a bit.
Why do it if it's not fun?
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Good post.
You said "Maybe it's just me being a miserable bastard," and when I saw the title of the thread, that's what I thought too. But your post doesn't just outline the negative, it gives good alternative solutions, which are also the same conclusions I came to when I first started looking into getting the ATPL(f).
I'd also add that, if you already have a job in another industry, you should do whatever you can to keep that job while training, and until you get your first flying job. We all love flying, and we'd all love to be able to do it every day and get paid for it. But until we get to that point, we've all (well, most of us anyway) got bills to pay, and that has to take priority.
FFF
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You said "Maybe it's just me being a miserable bastard," and when I saw the title of the thread, that's what I thought too. But your post doesn't just outline the negative, it gives good alternative solutions, which are also the same conclusions I came to when I first started looking into getting the ATPL(f).
I'd also add that, if you already have a job in another industry, you should do whatever you can to keep that job while training, and until you get your first flying job. We all love flying, and we'd all love to be able to do it every day and get paid for it. But until we get to that point, we've all (well, most of us anyway) got bills to pay, and that has to take priority.
FFF
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I say there boy
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Good post luke. Things that need to be said.
To all those enthusiastic wannabes just starting on the road to being a pilot: listen to those who are already down that road. There are things that you can learn from us to avoid the pitfalls that some of us made and increase your chances of success.
Just in the same way that many of us at the licence but no job phase (where I am) are listening hard to those in the airlines, to find out just how they got there, and what we should do to emulate them.
That's what makes pprune such a damn good resource.
cheers!
foggy.
To all those enthusiastic wannabes just starting on the road to being a pilot: listen to those who are already down that road. There are things that you can learn from us to avoid the pitfalls that some of us made and increase your chances of success.
Just in the same way that many of us at the licence but no job phase (where I am) are listening hard to those in the airlines, to find out just how they got there, and what we should do to emulate them.
That's what makes pprune such a damn good resource.
cheers!
foggy.
Luke, if nothing else thank you for being the miserable barstand this time instead of me 
I too have ex-students out there struggling to find work with massive debt and although they are all good blokes its very very hard for them. Truth is there are hundreds of excellent pilots out there with <1000hrs and a Frzn ATPL. Getting noticed and picked out amongst them is damn difficult. I certainly wouldn't like to try right now.
That said I see some rays of light.
Britannia are hiring as have MyTravel. BA will have to if they don't contract in the next year. BACE already have recruited a few in recent months. easyJet have 120 Airbus to crew with only 60 Boeing crew. People like Channel Express and Excel and Astraeus all appear to prosper and take on new people as does EAC (anyone fancy 747-200 as their first job!).
Some of the smaller operators such as Emerald are also quietly hiring people in recent weeks. I have even heard of someone being taken on as an instructor last week which is unusual for this time of year.
The UK economy seems to have dodged a recession (just) and when compared to our continental cousins is well placed to speed ahead in the next couple of years.
True a Sept11th 2 or major war in the Gulf will dampen down the embers of recovery very nicely. Fingers crossed it doesn't happen.
I find myself repeating my views of 12 months ago. It might be wiser to start slowly now on the modular route than to go rushing to join an integrated course. If you can stretch out the training over the next two and a half years whilst remaining in your current employment then that might be a very shrewd approach to becoming an airline pilot.
WWW
I too have ex-students out there struggling to find work with massive debt and although they are all good blokes its very very hard for them. Truth is there are hundreds of excellent pilots out there with <1000hrs and a Frzn ATPL. Getting noticed and picked out amongst them is damn difficult. I certainly wouldn't like to try right now.
That said I see some rays of light.
Britannia are hiring as have MyTravel. BA will have to if they don't contract in the next year. BACE already have recruited a few in recent months. easyJet have 120 Airbus to crew with only 60 Boeing crew. People like Channel Express and Excel and Astraeus all appear to prosper and take on new people as does EAC (anyone fancy 747-200 as their first job!).
Some of the smaller operators such as Emerald are also quietly hiring people in recent weeks. I have even heard of someone being taken on as an instructor last week which is unusual for this time of year.
The UK economy seems to have dodged a recession (just) and when compared to our continental cousins is well placed to speed ahead in the next couple of years.
True a Sept11th 2 or major war in the Gulf will dampen down the embers of recovery very nicely. Fingers crossed it doesn't happen.
I find myself repeating my views of 12 months ago. It might be wiser to start slowly now on the modular route than to go rushing to join an integrated course. If you can stretch out the training over the next two and a half years whilst remaining in your current employment then that might be a very shrewd approach to becoming an airline pilot.
WWW
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I think you quoted directly from my post last week, so I feel I should reply to help you understand my misguided optimism.
I am a University student studying IT and 18months ago I got a very good IT job in the middle of the dot.com collapse, when everybody around me was saying the end of IT is nigh. I am about to graduate in 2003 with a degree in an industry which has seen a 45% job market loss and into an economy which has the FTSE at a six year low. Graduate jobs are down 75% in some organisations and salaries are down 30%. Maybe I should just jump off the cliff now and save everybody alot of trouble. Or you could do what I do, and have been doing for the past 4 years which is analyse the situation, develop a risk plan and come to your own conclusions.
I believe there is Optimism/Reality & Pessimism, I feel your post is a semi accurate reflection of the market, people are out of work and terrorists are doing their bit to make us feel uneasy. However you seem to ignore that BA will be recruiting 1500 pilots over the next 10 years, that Britannia have just started a sponsorship scheme and that Ryannair are ordering 30 new 737's and hiring 150 pilots per year over the next two years, just to mention a few.
Your statement:
'how can I start my training now and ensure that I can still be employable in 2006 -7 should it be necessary'
well thats why I am getting a degree, to make sure that if I cant get a job in 2004 than I can still get a job somewhere, pay for some hours and pay off the loan.
If as you say "The USA could kick off the next world war" than not getting a flying job for a few more years will be the least of my worries, but more like oh my God I am prime age for national service where is the next Nuke coming from?
The reason why people like me come to very good forums like Pprune is because we are doing our risk analysis, working out whether we should invest 55 grand and where we should invest it. Anybody looking at the Pilot industry will be aware of the unemployment numbers, the same way I walked into my new firm 14 months ago at the same time 40% of the firms IT employees were leaving. To find out which school is best is vital, I dont want to be going to schools whose graduates are unemplyoable, you need to make yourself as attractive to the airlines as possible, and thats exactly what I am doing.
Thanks for the reality check, but you have been overtinged with Pessimism, if I were to listen to everybody who sounded as negative as you I would not have got a job 18 months ago in that dot.com collapse and there would be no point in me staying in University because I might as well dig out my cammo's and practice strategic exercises.
I am a University student studying IT and 18months ago I got a very good IT job in the middle of the dot.com collapse, when everybody around me was saying the end of IT is nigh. I am about to graduate in 2003 with a degree in an industry which has seen a 45% job market loss and into an economy which has the FTSE at a six year low. Graduate jobs are down 75% in some organisations and salaries are down 30%. Maybe I should just jump off the cliff now and save everybody alot of trouble. Or you could do what I do, and have been doing for the past 4 years which is analyse the situation, develop a risk plan and come to your own conclusions.
I believe there is Optimism/Reality & Pessimism, I feel your post is a semi accurate reflection of the market, people are out of work and terrorists are doing their bit to make us feel uneasy. However you seem to ignore that BA will be recruiting 1500 pilots over the next 10 years, that Britannia have just started a sponsorship scheme and that Ryannair are ordering 30 new 737's and hiring 150 pilots per year over the next two years, just to mention a few.
Your statement:
'how can I start my training now and ensure that I can still be employable in 2006 -7 should it be necessary'
well thats why I am getting a degree, to make sure that if I cant get a job in 2004 than I can still get a job somewhere, pay for some hours and pay off the loan.
If as you say "The USA could kick off the next world war" than not getting a flying job for a few more years will be the least of my worries, but more like oh my God I am prime age for national service where is the next Nuke coming from?
The reason why people like me come to very good forums like Pprune is because we are doing our risk analysis, working out whether we should invest 55 grand and where we should invest it. Anybody looking at the Pilot industry will be aware of the unemployment numbers, the same way I walked into my new firm 14 months ago at the same time 40% of the firms IT employees were leaving. To find out which school is best is vital, I dont want to be going to schools whose graduates are unemplyoable, you need to make yourself as attractive to the airlines as possible, and thats exactly what I am doing.
Thanks for the reality check, but you have been overtinged with Pessimism, if I were to listen to everybody who sounded as negative as you I would not have got a job 18 months ago in that dot.com collapse and there would be no point in me staying in University because I might as well dig out my cammo's and practice strategic exercises.
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I have to agree Lancelevin.
Any one who reads this forum must be painfully aware that the employment opportunities for any pilot at the moment are quite rare especially for low hours fATPL guys. However as WWW pointed out the first signs of recovery are there.
Pax figures are forecast to increase by between 4.5-5% per annum depending on which departments statistics are used and BALPA's May issue of AirWaves (Vol 7 No 5) paints a very positive picture of recovery over the next 2-3 years.
This is all providing that tensions in the Middle East ease. There is a chance of this as UN inspections and new resolutions are iniated, in addition to the latest Indonesian incident, once again focusing global attention on the hunt for terrorists.
It is a risk all of us who may soon be embarking on training or who have already started have taken. If the Middle East Situation reaches some sort of détente then when we finish we will possibly be in a very favourable position, being recently graduated and current in an upturned market.
There is also a number of us who have harbored this dream for long enough to realize that the first flying job may not be RHS jet, but perhaps part time instructing and are quite happy with this apprenticeship. Whilst the re-numeration may not be appealing many will also have used degrees, apprenticeships, previous work experience to gain a better financial position and to guarantee alternative well paid, part/full time employment to compliment any first steps in the aviation industry.
Whilst a reality check is absolutly essential, ultimately if you don’t buy a ticket you can’t play the game.
Any one who reads this forum must be painfully aware that the employment opportunities for any pilot at the moment are quite rare especially for low hours fATPL guys. However as WWW pointed out the first signs of recovery are there.
Pax figures are forecast to increase by between 4.5-5% per annum depending on which departments statistics are used and BALPA's May issue of AirWaves (Vol 7 No 5) paints a very positive picture of recovery over the next 2-3 years.
This is all providing that tensions in the Middle East ease. There is a chance of this as UN inspections and new resolutions are iniated, in addition to the latest Indonesian incident, once again focusing global attention on the hunt for terrorists.
It is a risk all of us who may soon be embarking on training or who have already started have taken. If the Middle East Situation reaches some sort of détente then when we finish we will possibly be in a very favourable position, being recently graduated and current in an upturned market.
There is also a number of us who have harbored this dream for long enough to realize that the first flying job may not be RHS jet, but perhaps part time instructing and are quite happy with this apprenticeship. Whilst the re-numeration may not be appealing many will also have used degrees, apprenticeships, previous work experience to gain a better financial position and to guarantee alternative well paid, part/full time employment to compliment any first steps in the aviation industry.
Whilst a reality check is absolutly essential, ultimately if you don’t buy a ticket you can’t play the game.
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lancelevin,
I admire your optimisim, but can you please tell me where you found out that BA will be taking on 1500 pilots over the next 10 years!! Seems an awfully large amount, after all how many have they taken on in the last 12 months?
Just curious
TG
I admire your optimisim, but can you please tell me where you found out that BA will be taking on 1500 pilots over the next 10 years!! Seems an awfully large amount, after all how many have they taken on in the last 12 months?
Just curious
TG
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cheers for brutal honesty, I get a healthy dose every time i log onto pprune! if you're in your early thirties my money's on the shrewd move of going modular over a couple of years, but for those carrying the valid arguments of integrated and have no flying experience i suggest get a ppl (shows motivation), have fun for a year or two and then go full steam ahead.
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Good valid posts above.
The market is beginning to turn but i think that it will be a while for the jobs to filter down to the low hour people. As for starting training at the moment I think that it needs to thought through very carefully.
For those of you out there who have low hours( and theres alot if the Balpa conference is anything to go by) I think you should consider the alternatives i.e An instructor rating etc. A few of you might get a RHS chance over the next year but i feel very few will.
Where as an FI rating will give you a means of staying current , build the hours until you get your chance.
The Astraeus speaker made a very valid point at the conference,
stating that people want to go straight into the RHS of an airliner and don't consider instructing etc.
I personally think from speaking and listening to student at the school i instruct at that some think either it is beneath them and that they have a god given right to the RHS or that the elusive pilot shortage will take over and that a 737 will suddenly becon.
Fact is it will not.
When i started on the ATPL path i always intended to instruct for a season or two.
That is what i did and this made 9/11 very much a none event for my career plan.
Now I have 1400hrs I.R, MCC etc etc I am current,valid still in the aviation scene even if on the outer fringes and feel i am now employable. I have learnt more about how to fly and all the other things that go with it over the last two yrs than I ever did when i first went commercial.
Once the hiring begins it will filter down the chain and instructor jobs will become openly available we have taken on one this week and another got a job else where and these vacancies all came from people moving to the airlines.
If you go get an FI rating etc and hopefully land a job then this time next year you will have an extra 4-700hrs over the people that are just waiting it to fall in their lap.
The market is beginning to turn but i think that it will be a while for the jobs to filter down to the low hour people. As for starting training at the moment I think that it needs to thought through very carefully.
For those of you out there who have low hours( and theres alot if the Balpa conference is anything to go by) I think you should consider the alternatives i.e An instructor rating etc. A few of you might get a RHS chance over the next year but i feel very few will.
Where as an FI rating will give you a means of staying current , build the hours until you get your chance.
The Astraeus speaker made a very valid point at the conference,
stating that people want to go straight into the RHS of an airliner and don't consider instructing etc.
I personally think from speaking and listening to student at the school i instruct at that some think either it is beneath them and that they have a god given right to the RHS or that the elusive pilot shortage will take over and that a 737 will suddenly becon.
Fact is it will not.
When i started on the ATPL path i always intended to instruct for a season or two.
That is what i did and this made 9/11 very much a none event for my career plan.
Now I have 1400hrs I.R, MCC etc etc I am current,valid still in the aviation scene even if on the outer fringes and feel i am now employable. I have learnt more about how to fly and all the other things that go with it over the last two yrs than I ever did when i first went commercial.
Once the hiring begins it will filter down the chain and instructor jobs will become openly available we have taken on one this week and another got a job else where and these vacancies all came from people moving to the airlines.
If you go get an FI rating etc and hopefully land a job then this time next year you will have an extra 4-700hrs over the people that are just waiting it to fall in their lap.
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Roger,
Well said! I just wanted to comment on the perceived lowness of instructing. I have to say I am suprised. I always perceived instructors to be professionals with the added talent of being able to communicate their skills to complete and utter novices. Although I am only PPLing right now I would not be happy with anybody other than someone who instils confidence in me.
It strikes me as obvious that a carrier will look more favourabley upon people friendly people and a stint as an instructor is surely one of the best ways to demonstrate yet more positive aspects of one's character. Peronsally I look forward to the chance of doing some PPL instructing, although it is quite a way off yet. The knowledge that it is also a valuable addition to my CV only encourages me further.
I maybe wrong here but the unions only seem to concern themselves with the top jobs in the top airlines. Are not the majority of pilots employed by the multitude of 'lower' carriers and training organisations? Just an impression I have...maybe misplaced.
Cheers,
Kef.
The Astraeus speaker made a very valid point at the conference,
stating that people want to go straight into the RHS of an airliner and don't consider instructing etc.
I personally think from speaking and listening to student at the school i instruct at that some think either it is beneath them and that they have a god given right to the RHS or that the elusive pilot shortage will take over and that a 737 will suddenly becon.
stating that people want to go straight into the RHS of an airliner and don't consider instructing etc.
I personally think from speaking and listening to student at the school i instruct at that some think either it is beneath them and that they have a god given right to the RHS or that the elusive pilot shortage will take over and that a 737 will suddenly becon.
It strikes me as obvious that a carrier will look more favourabley upon people friendly people and a stint as an instructor is surely one of the best ways to demonstrate yet more positive aspects of one's character. Peronsally I look forward to the chance of doing some PPL instructing, although it is quite a way off yet. The knowledge that it is also a valuable addition to my CV only encourages me further.
I maybe wrong here but the unions only seem to concern themselves with the top jobs in the top airlines. Are not the majority of pilots employed by the multitude of 'lower' carriers and training organisations? Just an impression I have...maybe misplaced.
Cheers,
Kef.
Why do it if it's not fun?
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I think there are very few pilots who percieve instructing in itself to be "low". However, it is very poorly paid, and this is why it's may be considered a lower step on the career ladder than other options.
I'd love to instruct - I think it would be great fun, and would improve my flying considerably. Realistically, there is only one way I can afford it, and that's to hope that the housing market in the south-east continues to inflate until I have a CPL and FI rating. Then, I can sell my flat in the south-east and use the equity in my flat to pay cash (or a very large deposit) for a similar place in a cheaper part of the country. This would reduce my mortgage payments to virtually zero, and enable me to live off the pennies which instructors earn. And it will only work if the property market continues to move in the way it has been for the past few years.
Does this sound like a gamble to you??? I'm about a year or so away from having to decide whether it's too much of a gamble for me.
FFF
------------
I'd love to instruct - I think it would be great fun, and would improve my flying considerably. Realistically, there is only one way I can afford it, and that's to hope that the housing market in the south-east continues to inflate until I have a CPL and FI rating. Then, I can sell my flat in the south-east and use the equity in my flat to pay cash (or a very large deposit) for a similar place in a cheaper part of the country. This would reduce my mortgage payments to virtually zero, and enable me to live off the pennies which instructors earn. And it will only work if the property market continues to move in the way it has been for the past few years.
Does this sound like a gamble to you??? I'm about a year or so away from having to decide whether it's too much of a gamble for me.
FFF
------------
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Exellant advice from both sides for some one like me, Quallified AC Electrician (A320) You have made my mind up
Stay in my job get PPL etc
From 0 to FI can anyone give me a figure as what to expect to pay.
Unfortunatly live in Germany at the moment wont return to the UK till 2003.
Anyone Know of English teaching Flying school in Hamburg.
I am 22 is this still young with respect to becoming an earning pilot (Broughton Filton shuttle would do me)
Stay in my job get PPL etc
From 0 to FI can anyone give me a figure as what to expect to pay.
Unfortunatly live in Germany at the moment wont return to the UK till 2003.
Anyone Know of English teaching Flying school in Hamburg.
I am 22 is this still young with respect to becoming an earning pilot (Broughton Filton shuttle would do me)
Being a huge fan of the journalist Anatole Kaletsky in The Times I am heartened today to read his analysis that the odds on War in Iraq this winter are only 1 in 3.
I am sure we can all point to internet resources that argue the opposite or indeed a spectrum of views. But I for one am going with Anatole and, if he is right, then at least the industry has some much needed breathing space.
Just heard today from another mate of mine who just landed a UK jet job with 1,200hrs - well done Griff.
WWW
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article...449254,00.html
I am sure we can all point to internet resources that argue the opposite or indeed a spectrum of views. But I for one am going with Anatole and, if he is right, then at least the industry has some much needed breathing space.
Just heard today from another mate of mine who just landed a UK jet job with 1,200hrs - well done Griff.
WWW
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article...449254,00.html
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instucting as a real career
I have been reading all these posts on whether to try instructing or not, the main thing in most of these comments are that most of you people would like to do it as a career but that the conception is that it is poorly paid. In general that is true but like all professions the more qualified you become the more you earn. 20 years ago I was an engineer earning good money, I packed it all in to go flying and for 5 years scraped a living and had to resort to going back into engineering to make ends meet and pay the mortgage. I continued to gain experience part time and eventually gained a QFI rating and taught IMC and night ratings. I also paid for an examiners rating and became the senior instructor at my club, the boss recognised the fact that I had not cleared off to the airlines and trained me to CPL and eventually FIC instructor. I do not get to fly shiny jets but I earn as much as I did as an engineer and am home each night. The flying is still great fun! The moral of this story is that if you are in the position that you want to instruct but cannot afford it then reconsider. When the job market picks up there will be an instructor shortage and the qualified guys will be in big demand just like the last time.
Join Date: Apr 1999
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Luke has it spot on, and as others have said, its amazing how some just cannot see it.
BA needing 1500 pilots is pure conjecture based on flawed retirement figures...
WWW, Emerald are not recruiting, they are just starting to take back guys they made redundant 6 months ago. Channex have nothing till next summer...
There will always be the odd person who gets a foot in the door, but things are NOT picking up, not yet, and not for a long time to come. There is plenty more bad news to come yet I am afraid.
BA needing 1500 pilots is pure conjecture based on flawed retirement figures...
WWW, Emerald are not recruiting, they are just starting to take back guys they made redundant 6 months ago. Channex have nothing till next summer...
There will always be the odd person who gets a foot in the door, but things are NOT picking up, not yet, and not for a long time to come. There is plenty more bad news to come yet I am afraid.
Why do it if it's not fun?
Join Date: Jul 2001
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juggernaut,
Thanks for you post. It's always good to hear from someone who's already been there and proved that it's possible to do it, whatever "it" is, despite the odds - it helps the rest of us look past the problems to see the solutions.
FFF
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Thanks for you post. It's always good to hear from someone who's already been there and proved that it's possible to do it, whatever "it" is, despite the odds - it helps the rest of us look past the problems to see the solutions.
FFF
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Join Date: Feb 1999
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as I've written a number of times in the past,the so-called "good times" of the preceeding years Sept 01 were not that good. I've been around on the forum for a good 3-4 years, and those were not good times. Let me remind you:
- BA filled its requirements with a few DEPs and Cadets. Unless you were under 27, then that was not a suitable route.
- Influx of EU citizens, and those with Grandfather rights to come and work in the UK. A vast majority of available jobs were taken by those with 1000's of hours from Oz, NZ and ZA.
- Non CAP509ers were still expected to have at least 800+ hrs. Occassionally, you'd hear of other low houred people getting jobs, but it still was the norm to be high houred. Many were instructors, either part-time or full-time.
- A few other sponsorship schemes, like BM, Monarch, Brittannia and FlyBe (apart from BM these were all for under 27 yo)
Things back in the good-old-times were still grim for any low houred pilot. The competition was fierce because of the influx of non-UK citizens, and the topics on this forum were all of the same: CAP509, buying ratings etc. Add to this the current climate, and yes things are even worse: we have ex-Ansett pilots doing their conversions here, plus the many who have been made redundant. But don't for one minute think in 12 months time, when things may pick up (I have my doubts), that it returns to a land of milk and honey, it won't. There was NEVER such a time.
Be sensible.
- BA filled its requirements with a few DEPs and Cadets. Unless you were under 27, then that was not a suitable route.
- Influx of EU citizens, and those with Grandfather rights to come and work in the UK. A vast majority of available jobs were taken by those with 1000's of hours from Oz, NZ and ZA.
- Non CAP509ers were still expected to have at least 800+ hrs. Occassionally, you'd hear of other low houred people getting jobs, but it still was the norm to be high houred. Many were instructors, either part-time or full-time.
- A few other sponsorship schemes, like BM, Monarch, Brittannia and FlyBe (apart from BM these were all for under 27 yo)
Things back in the good-old-times were still grim for any low houred pilot. The competition was fierce because of the influx of non-UK citizens, and the topics on this forum were all of the same: CAP509, buying ratings etc. Add to this the current climate, and yes things are even worse: we have ex-Ansett pilots doing their conversions here, plus the many who have been made redundant. But don't for one minute think in 12 months time, when things may pick up (I have my doubts), that it returns to a land of milk and honey, it won't. There was NEVER such a time.
Be sensible.