Ryan Air and EZ Jet Looking!!
PPRuNe Handmaiden
Virgin Blue does ask you to stump up $A25K to pay for your training if you don't have a 737 type rating. It is only after an offer of employment has been made. I believe the money is refunded to you over 2 years. ( $15K the first year, $10K the second year) I haven't heard any one complain about VB once they are there. Quite a few of my friends are there and they love it.
Chieftan o'the Pudden Race
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Paying for type rating and loyalty
If it comes to the point of most airlines demanding that new pilots pay for a type rating before they are employed, I guess the loyalty to that compay is going to be pretty much non-existant.
I would regard the type rating as "mine". I wouldn't think twice about leaving that company and finding greener pastures. I wouldnt think anything of any moral requirement to stay. The company wouldnt be able to hold me to any bond either.
I am just guessing but I would think that a certain Irish based low cost carrier may find a tidal wave of people leaving the company as soon as the opprtunity arises.
If a company is working to such tight financial limits that they cant afford to train their staff, do you really want to work for such a poorly run business? Would you go to a restuarant where you are expected to cook your own food, do your own washing up and pay for the priveledge?
As prospective aircrew we have NO representation anywhere. BALPA seem to be too busy looking after the BA pension fund issue to consider other companies never mind those of us at the bottom of the food chain. IPA simply doesnt have enough clout, and MP's couldnt give a stuff about a small number of politically insignificant people.
This whole buy your own type rating makes bonding look positively angelic in comparison
I would regard the type rating as "mine". I wouldn't think twice about leaving that company and finding greener pastures. I wouldnt think anything of any moral requirement to stay. The company wouldnt be able to hold me to any bond either.
I am just guessing but I would think that a certain Irish based low cost carrier may find a tidal wave of people leaving the company as soon as the opprtunity arises.
If a company is working to such tight financial limits that they cant afford to train their staff, do you really want to work for such a poorly run business? Would you go to a restuarant where you are expected to cook your own food, do your own washing up and pay for the priveledge?
As prospective aircrew we have NO representation anywhere. BALPA seem to be too busy looking after the BA pension fund issue to consider other companies never mind those of us at the bottom of the food chain. IPA simply doesnt have enough clout, and MP's couldnt give a stuff about a small number of politically insignificant people.
This whole buy your own type rating makes bonding look positively angelic in comparison
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I fully agree with Flypuppy on his post. I just hope the market picks up soon so that Ryanair will be caught with their trousers down. No one will then want to pay for a 737 rating when the others open up their recruitment and as previous mentioned if the boat is being rocked hard then those new joiners who have no bond will jump and quite right too.
Ryanair have been having it far too easy and it is only a matter of time before their HR department falls back to earth and it will be with a hard thump as well.
It is a scandal, and I am comforted to see that I am not the only person who feels that way!
MG
Ryanair have been having it far too easy and it is only a matter of time before their HR department falls back to earth and it will be with a hard thump as well.
It is a scandal, and I am comforted to see that I am not the only person who feels that way!
MG
If EZy were at OATS it would have been in connection with setting up some kind of scheme to take in low time graduates - they wouldn't have just been trawling for recruits. The only way they can comply with their own recruiting policy and ensure compliance with Employment Law is through their online application form.
The only people who have made people pay for type ratings is Ryanair with the cadets they took out of the Netherlands. Those boys knew exactly what they were getting into. They walked out of college on day one into a 737-800 with a prospect of a command in 4years. Guaranteed 3% pay rise a year, rosters fixed a year in advance and share options each year. They did well.
The £50 application fee was a bit much to swallow but I suspect it is a brilliantly efficient way of stopping a flood of CVs from no hopers as Ryanair see it.
People are sometimes a little too quick to condemn FRA here. They are a very good company, short time to command, new aircraft, stable rosters and flipping great wodges of cash. I know of First Officers at Stansted who are making £50,000 a year and love the company.
Some expouse the view that the company culture there is great because the bosses are bosses the workers are workers you pitch up, fly, go home. No non-hierarchical management structures, no orange cuddles.
Its a point.
WWW
The only people who have made people pay for type ratings is Ryanair with the cadets they took out of the Netherlands. Those boys knew exactly what they were getting into. They walked out of college on day one into a 737-800 with a prospect of a command in 4years. Guaranteed 3% pay rise a year, rosters fixed a year in advance and share options each year. They did well.
The £50 application fee was a bit much to swallow but I suspect it is a brilliantly efficient way of stopping a flood of CVs from no hopers as Ryanair see it.
People are sometimes a little too quick to condemn FRA here. They are a very good company, short time to command, new aircraft, stable rosters and flipping great wodges of cash. I know of First Officers at Stansted who are making £50,000 a year and love the company.
Some expouse the view that the company culture there is great because the bosses are bosses the workers are workers you pitch up, fly, go home. No non-hierarchical management structures, no orange cuddles.
Its a point.
WWW
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when the industry picks up
In this thread the words "when the industry will pick up" are mentioned quite often. Like wise for "we'll get them LCC's back once it's our turn".
**Is it realistic to say that there will be an airline pilot shortage some time in the future???? **
Where I come from there are always unemployed wannebe airline pilots, in good times, and even more in bad times. Is the brittish industry such a different one then, or am I mistaking?
Jaxx
**Is it realistic to say that there will be an airline pilot shortage some time in the future???? **
Where I come from there are always unemployed wannebe airline pilots, in good times, and even more in bad times. Is the brittish industry such a different one then, or am I mistaking?
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HG - Don't understand it. TR + 1500 hours and no contact from EJ? "39 with wife and mortgage to support and will not work for free!" doesn't get entered onto the application so have you tried emailing the recruitment office? ([email protected]) . At the recent roadshow at EM they seemed a very reasonable bunch of people and I can't believe that they don't want your experience. Best of luck.
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Soggy Airlines
All comments made I agree with more or less, by the way I heard it is more in the region of approx £250 to apply for RyanAir!
Anyway, I am saving up for a turbo prop to fly London Docklands to Amsterdam under the name of Soggy Airlines!! It will end up cheaper than paying nigh on £100K in the end for hours plus ratings just to work for some blood sucker!!
Sorry Stelios (I know hes gone!).
Anyway, I am saving up for a turbo prop to fly London Docklands to Amsterdam under the name of Soggy Airlines!! It will end up cheaper than paying nigh on £100K in the end for hours plus ratings just to work for some blood sucker!!
Sorry Stelios (I know hes gone!).
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Ryan Type Ratings
Sorry WWW, the Nederlands guys are not the only ones who are paying for their type ratings at Ryan, next time you're at GECAT have a look at the number of guys having interviews there for Ryan, and ask them what the deal is.
I believe it's £18000 for a -200 type rating, I don't know what sort of deal they get after that, some have said 6 months on the aircraft, others 50 sectors, and others full time positions.
I've also heard that Easy are looking at running their own cadetships, possibly in the new year.
Times are changing.
I believe it's £18000 for a -200 type rating, I don't know what sort of deal they get after that, some have said 6 months on the aircraft, others 50 sectors, and others full time positions.
I've also heard that Easy are looking at running their own cadetships, possibly in the new year.
Times are changing.
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WWW,
Your post about Ryanair, troubles me greatly.
I can only assume one of two things:
1. You are looking to get out of GOEasy and are using your position as Moderator to try and engender some sort of "Brownie Points" with a potential new employer.
or
2. Ryanair as an advertiser have applied pressure to the management of this bulletin board to reduce the amount of bad publicity that is generated/reveled here.
In either case I dont regard this as acceptable. If facts cannot be discussed without a moderator applying company/advertiser spin to threads there really is little point in this forum existing.
I said on another thread I would not post to this forum again, I recieved a few e-mails from people asking me not to go. Sadly I can no longer justify posting to this forum while you remain a moderator, WWW.
Your post about Ryanair, troubles me greatly.
I can only assume one of two things:
1. You are looking to get out of GOEasy and are using your position as Moderator to try and engender some sort of "Brownie Points" with a potential new employer.
or
2. Ryanair as an advertiser have applied pressure to the management of this bulletin board to reduce the amount of bad publicity that is generated/reveled here.
In either case I dont regard this as acceptable. If facts cannot be discussed without a moderator applying company/advertiser spin to threads there really is little point in this forum existing.
I said on another thread I would not post to this forum again, I recieved a few e-mails from people asking me not to go. Sadly I can no longer justify posting to this forum while you remain a moderator, WWW.
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got to agree with you flypuppy: I've met a few ryan pilots and they were all totally and utterly knackered and pi$%ed off.One youngish captain looked about 45 (he was actually 32).
It's a fine line isn't it:getting loadsa cash but too tired on your days off to enjoy or spend it. No thanks i'll take less cash and have a life.
As for easy there's no point about gripping about not getting a look in: two of my ex-colleagues applied (13'000 hours TRE/IRE)and they showed absolutely no interest so I guess they are still deluged.The information I have got from people who have been to the roadshows is:don't waste your time:a twenty minute lecture with them blowing sunshine at you, followed by a Q+A session.The only possible advantage is registering your name as having turned up:Although as they state they won't hold it against you if you turn up.
JB007:bmi regional is no longer a TP operator and hasn,t been for some time:Its all EMB135/45 now
regards
It's a fine line isn't it:getting loadsa cash but too tired on your days off to enjoy or spend it. No thanks i'll take less cash and have a life.
As for easy there's no point about gripping about not getting a look in: two of my ex-colleagues applied (13'000 hours TRE/IRE)and they showed absolutely no interest so I guess they are still deluged.The information I have got from people who have been to the roadshows is:don't waste your time:a twenty minute lecture with them blowing sunshine at you, followed by a Q+A session.The only possible advantage is registering your name as having turned up:Although as they state they won't hold it against you if you turn up.
JB007:bmi regional is no longer a TP operator and hasn,t been for some time:Its all EMB135/45 now
regards
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WWW
Your earlier argument is presented on a coin however you have only exposed the brighter side of that coin. Those days of £50K and living the good life is alas not reality for Ryanair recruits now. Circa £20K for a 737 type rating which just pays for your course and some hours on type but no job! Coupled to that the 50% reduced salary that you will start on when you start, it paints a picture which is a sharp contrast to the rosy picture that we saw for new joiners at Ryanair, just a couple of years ago.
I know someone who joined Ryanair in what I would term the 'golden days'. No investment was needed for any training and you were offered a secure job as soon as soon your TR course was completed and you started off on a full salary. That was a package that used to be very hard to beat and you knew you were going to fly 900hrs a year! I suspect your friends joined Ryanair during these 'golden days' and are still reaping the rewards!
MG
Your earlier argument is presented on a coin however you have only exposed the brighter side of that coin. Those days of £50K and living the good life is alas not reality for Ryanair recruits now. Circa £20K for a 737 type rating which just pays for your course and some hours on type but no job! Coupled to that the 50% reduced salary that you will start on when you start, it paints a picture which is a sharp contrast to the rosy picture that we saw for new joiners at Ryanair, just a couple of years ago.
I know someone who joined Ryanair in what I would term the 'golden days'. No investment was needed for any training and you were offered a secure job as soon as soon your TR course was completed and you started off on a full salary. That was a package that used to be very hard to beat and you knew you were going to fly 900hrs a year! I suspect your friends joined Ryanair during these 'golden days' and are still reaping the rewards!
MG
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WWW
Ryanair flying new aircraft? Yep, some are. The majority are still old f?cking 30 year old heaps of sh?t that are not worth spending £20k for a rating on.
Paying directly for a rating is appalling. And these guys are on crap terms now too in FR. It disgusts me, and I get p/ssed off when I hear friends of mine doing this. One said to me he would work for them for free the other day. Go on then, wreck it for everyone else.
M o'L is a multimillionaire with a huge farm in Ireland. He doesn't want to share his wealth with pilots. He hates them.
Paying directly for a rating is appalling. And these guys are on crap terms now too in FR. It disgusts me, and I get p/ssed off when I hear friends of mine doing this. One said to me he would work for them for free the other day. Go on then, wreck it for everyone else.
M o'L is a multimillionaire with a huge farm in Ireland. He doesn't want to share his wealth with pilots. He hates them.
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Have to say I am in general agreement with Flypuppy here.
WWW seems to be taking a pro-Ryanair stance here that is not in line with the majority of wannabes. I feel, as aluded by Flypuppy that this can only be a result of him now having the coveted jet job and now looking at the larger picture through the eyes of someone who has the needs of a seasoned airline pilot at heart and not as someone with a brand new licence and a cheeky grin.
Someone looking for their first job has a rather different agenda to someone who is in the game and no matter how good the company appears to be WWW you surely cannot justify the expense of type rating to get in the door? Please say you don't.
WWW, I don't know where you got this idea of only Dutch guys paying for their type ratings because a friend of mines brother has recently joined the outfit and stumped up the cash for his. And no he is not Dutch he is self sponsored (OATS) and I belive the school were almost instrumental in him getting the "job".
I would say that WWW needs to take a step back and remember how he felt being an eager wannabe with little cash and what he valued at that stage as most important. Most of us could simply not afford a type rating on top of £50k+ and I know for a fact that you couldn't either WWW because I recall your numerous posts on how you got where you are by spending as little money as you possibly could. Remember those days?
BM.
WWW seems to be taking a pro-Ryanair stance here that is not in line with the majority of wannabes. I feel, as aluded by Flypuppy that this can only be a result of him now having the coveted jet job and now looking at the larger picture through the eyes of someone who has the needs of a seasoned airline pilot at heart and not as someone with a brand new licence and a cheeky grin.
Someone looking for their first job has a rather different agenda to someone who is in the game and no matter how good the company appears to be WWW you surely cannot justify the expense of type rating to get in the door? Please say you don't.
WWW, I don't know where you got this idea of only Dutch guys paying for their type ratings because a friend of mines brother has recently joined the outfit and stumped up the cash for his. And no he is not Dutch he is self sponsored (OATS) and I belive the school were almost instrumental in him getting the "job".
I would say that WWW needs to take a step back and remember how he felt being an eager wannabe with little cash and what he valued at that stage as most important. Most of us could simply not afford a type rating on top of £50k+ and I know for a fact that you couldn't either WWW because I recall your numerous posts on how you got where you are by spending as little money as you possibly could. Remember those days?
BM.
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We never cease reading threads about pilots trying to improve their condititions following a strong dregradation in the past few years but then again, who's fault is it ?
Dumb pilots who agree to those conditions or even worse. Indeed all too often pilots have created those conditions themselves.
Things such as
"Will fly for free"
"Will type rate myself"
"Will not fly for free but for twice less than the others"
"will sell my mum to get a job (note: House has been sold to fund training,... if you had one that is
) are just one of the tricks pilots use to beat each other at the game of landing a job.
Problem is that in suggesting or going ahead with that kind of stuff, it isn't a job we are going to get but more like a very uncertain and difficult future.
If we don't have respect for ourselves, how can we expect it to from our employer ?
Respect is something you diserve not something you buy at the local market.
Flypuppy, I like your post mate
Dumb pilots who agree to those conditions or even worse. Indeed all too often pilots have created those conditions themselves.
Things such as
"Will fly for free"
"Will type rate myself"
"Will not fly for free but for twice less than the others"
"will sell my mum to get a job (note: House has been sold to fund training,... if you had one that is
) are just one of the tricks pilots use to beat each other at the game of landing a job.Problem is that in suggesting or going ahead with that kind of stuff, it isn't a job we are going to get but more like a very uncertain and difficult future.
If we don't have respect for ourselves, how can we expect it to from our employer ?
Respect is something you diserve not something you buy at the local market.
Flypuppy, I like your post mate
A good healthy debate then!
pjdj - I haven't spoken to or heard about Ryans activities at Gecat re. people having to pay for ratings without any gaurantee of a job. Shame if that is happening. The Netherlands guys as I outlined were on a fair enough deal in my book. Face it. BA cadets spend 5 years paying for their type rating when they join. Whats the year 1 BA CEP pay again? £24,000 and you've got to live near London...
Flypuppy - do you think Dr Evil (Mr O' Leary) has picked up the phone to PPRuNe HQ and leant on us? My points regards Ryanair are merely personal opinion - offered in the interests of BALANCE on this forum. Thats a perfectly reasonable action for a MODERATOR.
Tailscrape - the great majority of Ryanairs fleet new aircraft. The 200's are dwindling and will all be gone in 2 years. The 200 drivers I know of like the jet, have been flying them or years and will be sad to see them go. I'd like a go myself - no glass and some good old fashioned Jet scream to wake the neighbours with.
There are plenty of airlines out there whose average fleet age is older than Ryanairs and getting worse.
Mister Geezer - quite right, the big money days were a few years ago for starters at Ryan. Things, as people have outlined, have declined since then. Same as other airlines, BA are trying to/have scraped the FSS pension for new joiners, many of the charter airlines have torn up pilot agreements just as BMI is doing next month. Virgin have fired and re-hired (effectively) some pilots who have lost seniority position. Easy managed to make their crews a misery with a new roster system etc. Meanwhile the guys on the line at EGSS got their annual 3% pay rise, watched their share options inflate further, knew exactly what days and when they were flying all summer and welcomed a couple of new 737-800's and new routes to their base. Oh and never had a sleepless night worrying about their jobs or promotion prospects.
Thats a whole heck of a lot better than life for pilots in - say - BA.
And finally, Flypuppy, "In either case I dont regard this as acceptable. If facts cannot be discussed without a moderator applying company/advertiser spin to threads there really is little point in this forum existing."
I am discussing facts re fleet, pay, rostering and condition for line pilots as I know them to be in FRA out of Stansted. I am not being pointlessly emotive about Michael O Leary, I've never the met the man and he might be really nice. Who knows. You can flounce off in a huff threatening never to post here again like you have done in the past if all you can come up with is an accusation about PPRuNe mods being influenced by advertising spin or posting for personal advancement. I'm just too busy flying 900hrs a year to be spending sunny bank holiday Mondays in front of a PC trying to justify myself to your good self.
The only people who knock FRA on this board are people who have never worked there and, I suspect, do not have any friends who do.
WWW
pjdj - I haven't spoken to or heard about Ryans activities at Gecat re. people having to pay for ratings without any gaurantee of a job. Shame if that is happening. The Netherlands guys as I outlined were on a fair enough deal in my book. Face it. BA cadets spend 5 years paying for their type rating when they join. Whats the year 1 BA CEP pay again? £24,000 and you've got to live near London...
Flypuppy - do you think Dr Evil (Mr O' Leary) has picked up the phone to PPRuNe HQ and leant on us? My points regards Ryanair are merely personal opinion - offered in the interests of BALANCE on this forum. Thats a perfectly reasonable action for a MODERATOR.
Tailscrape - the great majority of Ryanairs fleet new aircraft. The 200's are dwindling and will all be gone in 2 years. The 200 drivers I know of like the jet, have been flying them or years and will be sad to see them go. I'd like a go myself - no glass and some good old fashioned Jet scream to wake the neighbours with.
There are plenty of airlines out there whose average fleet age is older than Ryanairs and getting worse.
Mister Geezer - quite right, the big money days were a few years ago for starters at Ryan. Things, as people have outlined, have declined since then. Same as other airlines, BA are trying to/have scraped the FSS pension for new joiners, many of the charter airlines have torn up pilot agreements just as BMI is doing next month. Virgin have fired and re-hired (effectively) some pilots who have lost seniority position. Easy managed to make their crews a misery with a new roster system etc. Meanwhile the guys on the line at EGSS got their annual 3% pay rise, watched their share options inflate further, knew exactly what days and when they were flying all summer and welcomed a couple of new 737-800's and new routes to their base. Oh and never had a sleepless night worrying about their jobs or promotion prospects.
Thats a whole heck of a lot better than life for pilots in - say - BA.
And finally, Flypuppy, "In either case I dont regard this as acceptable. If facts cannot be discussed without a moderator applying company/advertiser spin to threads there really is little point in this forum existing."
I am discussing facts re fleet, pay, rostering and condition for line pilots as I know them to be in FRA out of Stansted. I am not being pointlessly emotive about Michael O Leary, I've never the met the man and he might be really nice. Who knows. You can flounce off in a huff threatening never to post here again like you have done in the past if all you can come up with is an accusation about PPRuNe mods being influenced by advertising spin or posting for personal advancement. I'm just too busy flying 900hrs a year to be spending sunny bank holiday Mondays in front of a PC trying to justify myself to your good self.
The only people who knock FRA on this board are people who have never worked there and, I suspect, do not have any friends who do.
WWW
Chieftan o'the Pudden Race
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Ok then www, you want to talk about FACTS do you? Well maybe you had better get a few of them sorted out before you post.
Fact Times have changed since you were on this side of the cockpit door.
Fact Ryan do charge for a type rating in a deal with GECAT. Cost GBP15000 for a 737-200 type rating.
Fact There is NO guarantee of a position with Ryan at the end of the Type Rating course
Fact A new F/O with less than 1500 hours who has been through the scheme will be paid GBP11k plus flight pay plus expenses. There is no way that a new f/o will earn GBP50k in the first year.
Fact Ryan operate 22 737-200's out of a fleet of 44, and will not begin to phase it out for another 2 years. (the number of -200's may now be 21, but even so the -800 hardly makes up a "great majority of ryan's fleet".)
These are facts that I have from a very reliable source (a friend that works for the company), but for the sake of being certain I contacted Ryanair's HQ just to be absolutely sure.
I have not in any of my posts in this thread "been pointlessly emotive about Michael O Leary".
I once respected and appreciated your views, but following your various intemperate lambastings of people on this forum, that is long gone. It also seems to me that you don't really appreciate what it is like for wannabe's now.
As far as I am aware I have never flounced anywhere in my life, although I am willing to be corrected on that one. I also do not "go off in a huff", unless there is a very good reason for it.
You just did... 
Fact Times have changed since you were on this side of the cockpit door.
Fact Ryan do charge for a type rating in a deal with GECAT. Cost GBP15000 for a 737-200 type rating.
Fact There is NO guarantee of a position with Ryan at the end of the Type Rating course
Fact A new F/O with less than 1500 hours who has been through the scheme will be paid GBP11k plus flight pay plus expenses. There is no way that a new f/o will earn GBP50k in the first year.
Fact Ryan operate 22 737-200's out of a fleet of 44, and will not begin to phase it out for another 2 years. (the number of -200's may now be 21, but even so the -800 hardly makes up a "great majority of ryan's fleet".)
These are facts that I have from a very reliable source (a friend that works for the company), but for the sake of being certain I contacted Ryanair's HQ just to be absolutely sure.
I have not in any of my posts in this thread "been pointlessly emotive about Michael O Leary".
I once respected and appreciated your views, but following your various intemperate lambastings of people on this forum, that is long gone. It also seems to me that you don't really appreciate what it is like for wannabe's now.
As far as I am aware I have never flounced anywhere in my life, although I am willing to be corrected on that one. I also do not "go off in a huff", unless there is a very good reason for it.
I'm just too busy flying 900hrs a year to be spending sunny bank holiday Mondays in front of a PC trying to justify myself to your good self.
Last edited by Flypuppy; 26th Aug 2002 at 15:37.
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Well, well, this topic has certainly generated a lot of discussion which has gotten pretty heated at times.
It would certainly appear from those who have posted, an overwhelming majority of us wannabes (and between jobs ATPL'ers) that paying for ones TR is totally contemptable and out of the question.
As if this disturbing trend of expecting 'wannabes' to pay for their own TR were not bad enough, I find it disheartening to read of people like Harry Greyhound, with 1500+ hours and a TR and they are not even getting a look in with the likes of EJ. He's not the only one I've read about in the last few weeks, there are quite a few others who claim to have thousands of hours, including jet experience, who have been unemployed for anywhere between 6-11 months !!! I mean what the hell is going on here !! I tell you what, since this topic regarding the trend of airlines paying for their TR's first appeared I've been having a serious rethink of whether I actually want to even persue this career option anymore. I had fully come to terms with the fact I'd have to spend a fair wad of cashing converting my ICAO CPL Multi IFR to a JAA fATPL, not to mention dis-associatiting myself with my family and friends for at least 12 months to write the 14 exams. Given some of the odds are already stacking against me [35, kid and working professional wife in a highly specialised field who can't just up sticks and follow me up and down the country so I can follow my dream of being a commercial/airline pilot], I've got to seriously take stock and question whether I want to spend, or should I say 'waste' (?) my time and hard earned cash getting an fATPL. It was something which I had already viewed as being risky but being someone who not averse to a bit of risk and given that it was something I really wanted I decided it was a least worth a try. I don't object to paying for my own fATPL licence but after having does that to then engage an industry where one is expected to pay for their type ratings, well I'm simply not having it. I'm not prepared to spend the huge amounts of extra cash to get a TR !!! which could be like throwing good money after bad with no job guarantees !! The sad fact is ..... and it's for this reason I'm having this serious rethink, is there will always be those out there who will pay up and fuel the airlines perversion to screw over wannabes ............
Again, there are probably those out there, probably those in their early twenties who may be prepared to do this and live in squalor (cos let's face it - that's all they'll be able to aford after being paid peanuts, the bulk of which will be going straight back out to pay off all those hefty loans). Fact is, I'm not !! Yes, I really want to be a commercial pilot, but I've got my limitations. The kind of money now required to get some of these airlines to even look at you could bring me and my family a major boost in quality of life. With absolutely no guarantees of being able to pull anything off at the end of it all, except more vast spending, I'm now left thinking ..... I'm not sure it's worth it anymore !!!!
Right. Glad that's off my chest ..........
It would certainly appear from those who have posted, an overwhelming majority of us wannabes (and between jobs ATPL'ers) that paying for ones TR is totally contemptable and out of the question.
As if this disturbing trend of expecting 'wannabes' to pay for their own TR were not bad enough, I find it disheartening to read of people like Harry Greyhound, with 1500+ hours and a TR and they are not even getting a look in with the likes of EJ. He's not the only one I've read about in the last few weeks, there are quite a few others who claim to have thousands of hours, including jet experience, who have been unemployed for anywhere between 6-11 months !!! I mean what the hell is going on here !! I tell you what, since this topic regarding the trend of airlines paying for their TR's first appeared I've been having a serious rethink of whether I actually want to even persue this career option anymore. I had fully come to terms with the fact I'd have to spend a fair wad of cashing converting my ICAO CPL Multi IFR to a JAA fATPL, not to mention dis-associatiting myself with my family and friends for at least 12 months to write the 14 exams. Given some of the odds are already stacking against me [35, kid and working professional wife in a highly specialised field who can't just up sticks and follow me up and down the country so I can follow my dream of being a commercial/airline pilot], I've got to seriously take stock and question whether I want to spend, or should I say 'waste' (?) my time and hard earned cash getting an fATPL. It was something which I had already viewed as being risky but being someone who not averse to a bit of risk and given that it was something I really wanted I decided it was a least worth a try. I don't object to paying for my own fATPL licence but after having does that to then engage an industry where one is expected to pay for their type ratings, well I'm simply not having it. I'm not prepared to spend the huge amounts of extra cash to get a TR !!! which could be like throwing good money after bad with no job guarantees !! The sad fact is ..... and it's for this reason I'm having this serious rethink, is there will always be those out there who will pay up and fuel the airlines perversion to screw over wannabes ............
Again, there are probably those out there, probably those in their early twenties who may be prepared to do this and live in squalor (cos let's face it - that's all they'll be able to aford after being paid peanuts, the bulk of which will be going straight back out to pay off all those hefty loans). Fact is, I'm not !! Yes, I really want to be a commercial pilot, but I've got my limitations. The kind of money now required to get some of these airlines to even look at you could bring me and my family a major boost in quality of life. With absolutely no guarantees of being able to pull anything off at the end of it all, except more vast spending, I'm now left thinking ..... I'm not sure it's worth it anymore !!!!
Right. Glad that's off my chest ..........
Last edited by Canada Goose; 26th Aug 2002 at 16:24.
Flypuppy, thanks for going to the trouble of contacting FRA HQ etc. to obtain the facts.
Type ratings with no gauranteed job that you have to pay for is a pretty sore deal which I do not condone. I guess though that if people are out there willing to do it you can't blame Ryanair for doing it. As a shareholder I think its a great idea.
Fingers crossed it doesn't become and industry standard.
I think we have established that its a crappy deal. Hopefully though people may now also see that as a pilot Ryanair can be a good career. A point often missed admist all the Ryanair Bashing that one finds on these forums.
I would also point out that Sir Michael Bishop in the last major recession of the early 90's was also in the business of offering 737 type rating courses which came attached to some vague promises that graduates would be assessed for entry at British Midland.
Quite a few paid for the rating at British Midlands training centre. Very few were taken on. As I remember it the cost was something like £15,000.
So Ryanair didn't invent this practice.
They copied Sir Michael.
Which of course is legal, above board and caveat emptor.
WWW
Type ratings with no gauranteed job that you have to pay for is a pretty sore deal which I do not condone. I guess though that if people are out there willing to do it you can't blame Ryanair for doing it. As a shareholder I think its a great idea.
Fingers crossed it doesn't become and industry standard.
I think we have established that its a crappy deal. Hopefully though people may now also see that as a pilot Ryanair can be a good career. A point often missed admist all the Ryanair Bashing that one finds on these forums.
I would also point out that Sir Michael Bishop in the last major recession of the early 90's was also in the business of offering 737 type rating courses which came attached to some vague promises that graduates would be assessed for entry at British Midland.
Quite a few paid for the rating at British Midlands training centre. Very few were taken on. As I remember it the cost was something like £15,000.
So Ryanair didn't invent this practice.
They copied Sir Michael.
Which of course is legal, above board and caveat emptor.
WWW
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Wee Weasley Welshman,
As a moderator your input to this thread cannot be neutral so I do not buy the idea that you merely put forward the views you do in the interest of a "balanced" debate.
The above quote says alot and your motives appear quite clear.
BM.
As a shareholder I think its a great idea.
The above quote says alot and your motives appear quite clear.
BM.