ATPL Exam Fail - Airline Selection
ATPL Exam Fail - Airline Selection
Guys, I am currently providing support to a well known flying school.
I keep getting a few enquiries regarding the ATPL exams.
What are the airline's views on an applicant having failed an exam?
At my airline I do not think they really consider this as they are more focused on your performance during the assessment day(s). However I do not work in HR so I would not know.
Once the airlines begin rehiring, will there be a stricter criteria for new cadets? What about pre-COVID?
I keep getting a few enquiries regarding the ATPL exams.
What are the airline's views on an applicant having failed an exam?
At my airline I do not think they really consider this as they are more focused on your performance during the assessment day(s). However I do not work in HR so I would not know.
Once the airlines begin rehiring, will there be a stricter criteria for new cadets? What about pre-COVID?
The airlines can ask whatever they want. I wouldn't draw attention to any exam failures, but disclose them if asked. There are loads of pilots who didn't get first time passes. It really depends on the airline, and how much input the HR department has. When there is a glut of pilots they can afford to be picky. But if you're trying to get your CV through the front door, there's your first mistake.
According to the newly formed Pilot Licensing Advisory Group:
The theoretical exams are not fit for purpose.
The CAA has acquired exam databases from EASA. The current CAA database, called UK CQB 2020, is not, we believe, fit for purpose. Early exams using this database identified many questions which are badly constructed, written in poor English and which examine areas outside the syllabus. Pass rates dropped from historically normal ranges of 85%+ of candidates passing a paper to as low as 5% in one case, but generally less than 50% across all 13 subjects. EASA have experienced similar problems with their (identical) database called ECQB 2020 but have reacted rapidly and have already been through two revision processes. The CAA response is that nothing can be done because they have neither the capacity nor capability to review the database. The reality is that pass rates will improve as ATOs become familiar with the questions being asked and candidates use online databases of feedback questions but neither of these remedies address the fundamental problem of unfit exams.
The CAA exam process is not regulated by Ofqual or any equivalent body.
The CAA has acquired exam databases from EASA. The current CAA database, called UK CQB 2020, is not, we believe, fit for purpose. Early exams using this database identified many questions which are badly constructed, written in poor English and which examine areas outside the syllabus. Pass rates dropped from historically normal ranges of 85%+ of candidates passing a paper to as low as 5% in one case, but generally less than 50% across all 13 subjects. EASA have experienced similar problems with their (identical) database called ECQB 2020 but have reacted rapidly and have already been through two revision processes. The CAA response is that nothing can be done because they have neither the capacity nor capability to review the database. The reality is that pass rates will improve as ATOs become familiar with the questions being asked and candidates use online databases of feedback questions but neither of these remedies address the fundamental problem of unfit exams.
The CAA exam process is not regulated by Ofqual or any equivalent body.
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I personally do not believe it makes one scrap of difference between a first time pass (flight test or exam) and a subsequent attempt which was successful. FTP's only prove a certain type of focus (sometimes luck) and ability to learn in a certain way. Often those people dump what they have learned just as fast. The ability to pass multiple choice exams proves very little.
IMHO, its about retaining essential knowledge and becoming an all round pilot/airman (or woman) with lots of other skills (many soft skills), personality, drive, determination, attitude etc. A good interviewer can see the wood from the trees, usually!
One caveat, however, multiple failures and many subsequent attempts would show a lack of focus and dedication and likely bring into question the persons learning ability and skill. If asked at an interview how many attempts, for either skill test or TK exams, being forthright and clear and not being defensive about needing a second attempt would be just as well received by the interviewer as someone who simply stated 'passed everything first time' which actually might come across as somewhat arrogant especially as the interviewer(s) may have had more than one attempt themselves.
One of my good friends, who is a senior captain with one of the most prestigious airlines, often reminds me of his repeats on some of those crazy exams where he didn't even understand the question and his 2 attempts for CPL (fail then pass) and 2 attempts at IR (partial then pass), but he is well thought of, is an outstanding pilot and great captain.
IMHO, its about retaining essential knowledge and becoming an all round pilot/airman (or woman) with lots of other skills (many soft skills), personality, drive, determination, attitude etc. A good interviewer can see the wood from the trees, usually!
One caveat, however, multiple failures and many subsequent attempts would show a lack of focus and dedication and likely bring into question the persons learning ability and skill. If asked at an interview how many attempts, for either skill test or TK exams, being forthright and clear and not being defensive about needing a second attempt would be just as well received by the interviewer as someone who simply stated 'passed everything first time' which actually might come across as somewhat arrogant especially as the interviewer(s) may have had more than one attempt themselves.
One of my good friends, who is a senior captain with one of the most prestigious airlines, often reminds me of his repeats on some of those crazy exams where he didn't even understand the question and his 2 attempts for CPL (fail then pass) and 2 attempts at IR (partial then pass), but he is well thought of, is an outstanding pilot and great captain.
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jez d
I have to disagree with the conclusion to assessment of the new database. Simply waiting until you have enough feedback so that you can tailor your trainings to align with the questions defeats the entire learning process and objective of exams.
If the examination questions don’t achieve their purpose, testing knowledge and understanding of the LO’s,then they should not be allowed to be in the database and used in exams.
Someone needs to challenge EASA on the relevance of their questions. Ambiguous, excessively worded and grammatically incorrect questions should be automatically disqualified as they are purposely designed to induce error.
As an airline pilot and someone sitting the ECQB 2020database , I fully agree that the questions are not fit for purpose and have no relevance in the real operational world.
I would be more than prepared to support any action taken to hold EASA accountable and have fair and relevant questions tested in exams.
I have to disagree with the conclusion to assessment of the new database. Simply waiting until you have enough feedback so that you can tailor your trainings to align with the questions defeats the entire learning process and objective of exams.
If the examination questions don’t achieve their purpose, testing knowledge and understanding of the LO’s,then they should not be allowed to be in the database and used in exams.
Someone needs to challenge EASA on the relevance of their questions. Ambiguous, excessively worded and grammatically incorrect questions should be automatically disqualified as they are purposely designed to induce error.
As an airline pilot and someone sitting the ECQB 2020database , I fully agree that the questions are not fit for purpose and have no relevance in the real operational world.
I would be more than prepared to support any action taken to hold EASA accountable and have fair and relevant questions tested in exams.
It seems to me that the EASA exam process would be much easier if EASA actually published what they want you to know rather than just set vague learning objectives and expect training organisations to know what to teach.
The FAA will actually publish a book - then ask you questions about what's in it. Why is that so hard?
The FAA will actually publish a book - then ask you questions about what's in it. Why is that so hard?
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I have to disagree with the conclusion to assessment of the new database. Simply waiting until you have enough feedback so that you can tailor your trainings to align with the questions defeats the entire learning process and objective of exams.
there is no alternative.
neither of these remedies address the fundamental problem of unfit exams
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To reinforce Alex's point - even the schools need the databases. Apparently they are now asking for the first 5 pages of the 737 FMS instead of just three - haven't seen that in the LOs.
The CBIR, which is intended for light aircraft, is getting questions with the words commercial air transport in them and concerning jets.
This seriously affects flight safety - I think that the Air France accident over the Azores was directly due to this type of "training" and lack of basic PPL knowledge. This is not to impugn Air France - I met their director of ops over in Cologne who informed me that there were two other similar incidents with other airlines.
Based on my experience with other examining bodies, the EASA system is an international joke.
The CBIR, which is intended for light aircraft, is getting questions with the words commercial air transport in them and concerning jets.
This seriously affects flight safety - I think that the Air France accident over the Azores was directly due to this type of "training" and lack of basic PPL knowledge. This is not to impugn Air France - I met their director of ops over in Cologne who informed me that there were two other similar incidents with other airlines.
Based on my experience with other examining bodies, the EASA system is an international joke.
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Alex Whittingham
No I did not misread the post.
"the pass rate will improve as ATO's become familiar with the questions being asked..." is not an acceptable or safe solution.
If the questions are unfit for purpose, then they should not be allowed to continue to be asked.
Anyone, particularly an airline pilot should be able to self study for these exams with an a ppropriate training manual, and pass. Not necessarily get 100%, but pass.
I repeat what I said. EASA should be held to account and forced to justify the relevance of the questions, their relation to the LO's and any question with any ambiguity needs to be removed. Those questions are designed with the sole purpose of inducing a wrong answer.
Of course a self governing body will not admit an error, or self govern. Only outside industry pressure will be able to enact change.
If PACO is correct, it reinforces a point I did not deleted. Until a crash investigation concludes that the examination process contributed to an accident, nothing will change.
Another issue is the inconsistancy between National authorities. Why does 1 authority allow you to bring the CAP into the exam, yet another restricts you to a calculator and a pen?
No I did not misread the post.
"the pass rate will improve as ATO's become familiar with the questions being asked..." is not an acceptable or safe solution.
If the questions are unfit for purpose, then they should not be allowed to continue to be asked.
Anyone, particularly an airline pilot should be able to self study for these exams with an a ppropriate training manual, and pass. Not necessarily get 100%, but pass.
I repeat what I said. EASA should be held to account and forced to justify the relevance of the questions, their relation to the LO's and any question with any ambiguity needs to be removed. Those questions are designed with the sole purpose of inducing a wrong answer.
Of course a self governing body will not admit an error, or self govern. Only outside industry pressure will be able to enact change.
If PACO is correct, it reinforces a point I did not deleted. Until a crash investigation concludes that the examination process contributed to an accident, nothing will change.
Another issue is the inconsistancy between National authorities. Why does 1 authority allow you to bring the CAP into the exam, yet another restricts you to a calculator and a pen?
Last edited by IBE8720; 16th Jun 2021 at 13:52.
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Indeed. I'll gve you an example of a training gap. Obviously ATPL candidates study Performance of both Class A and B in their theory courses. Candidates for CPL, or PPL holders studying for the HPA rating do no Class A study even though their licences allow them to act as PIC of Perf A biz jets like the Citation, if under 5700 kg. I flagged the obvious safety issue to the CAA, suggesting that these candidates should do the full Performance syllabus, not just the bit restricted to light pistons. Nothing....
I really appreciate all of your comments guys.
From what a lot of students are telling me, these exams are more memory than anything now.
The majority of guys nowadays will just hammer the banks without proper understanding. This is understandable though when the questions either contain traps or word play. Some of the questions I have been shown are not even well written in English.
But remember that a tiny percent of ATPL is really an advantage for when the CPL, IR and TR starts. Some airlines will even ask you some ATPL-esque questions in the assessment.
From what a lot of students are telling me, these exams are more memory than anything now.
The majority of guys nowadays will just hammer the banks without proper understanding. This is understandable though when the questions either contain traps or word play. Some of the questions I have been shown are not even well written in English.
But remember that a tiny percent of ATPL is really an advantage for when the CPL, IR and TR starts. Some airlines will even ask you some ATPL-esque questions in the assessment.
IBE8720
While I didn't write the post on the PLAG website, I think the author's intention of irony is fairly clear. The author clearly knows that this is not an acceptable mechanism for increasing pass rates, but also recognises that it is the only way it can happen until such time that the exams are made fit for purpose. It should also be noted that PLAG is more concerned about the UK CAA's attitude to TK subject matter than EASA's, as while EASA appears to be at least attempting to improve the situation, the UK CAA, by virtue of holding no in-house expertise and being way out of its depth in the post-Brexit world, is allegedly giving the situation a good ignoring.
That's a truly damning indictment and perhaps the seriousness of the situation is currently lost on the CAA and EASA? Perhaps it's time the legal profession was engaged to explain the realities of the situation to these 'safety' agencies?
While I didn't write the post on the PLAG website, I think the author's intention of irony is fairly clear. The author clearly knows that this is not an acceptable mechanism for increasing pass rates, but also recognises that it is the only way it can happen until such time that the exams are made fit for purpose. It should also be noted that PLAG is more concerned about the UK CAA's attitude to TK subject matter than EASA's, as while EASA appears to be at least attempting to improve the situation, the UK CAA, by virtue of holding no in-house expertise and being way out of its depth in the post-Brexit world, is allegedly giving the situation a good ignoring.
This seriously affects flight safety - I think that the Air France accident over the Azores was directly due to this type of "training" and lack of basic PPL knowledge. This is not to impugn Air France - I met their director of ops over in Cologne who informed me that there were two other similar incidents with other airlines.
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I am of the opinion that using the banks in the way that they are currently being used, that is merely to overcome an obstacle is dangerous because it does not engender pride in your profession. Databases are needed, certainly, as a reinforcement to basic learning, because you need to open up the neural pathways to various scenarios, but you shouldn't have to learn them to pass the exams, because you won't do it on just knowledge - we've had enough CFIIs through here who should be able to but don't to prove it.
I've lost count of the number of short sharp and to the point questions I've written, only to have them returned with three paragraphs in the stem, so it appears that they want garbage. If the UK writers hadn't been dumped due to BREXIT I wouldn't have continued writing them this year.
You're quite right to point out the potential legal can of worms. If it wasn't for the fact that many airlines add their own gloss on top to cover the inadequacies, I don't know where we would be.
I've lost count of the number of short sharp and to the point questions I've written, only to have them returned with three paragraphs in the stem, so it appears that they want garbage. If the UK writers hadn't been dumped due to BREXIT I wouldn't have continued writing them this year.
You're quite right to point out the potential legal can of worms. If it wasn't for the fact that many airlines add their own gloss on top to cover the inadequacies, I don't know where we would be.
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Why don’t the CAA just ditch the EASA exams and examine for an ICAO compliant standard set of exams which are fit for the 21st century for issue of a U.K. CPL.
Self-study is the norm for Type Rating, so as suggested above just publish a book or two containing what is required and get rid of this prescriptive need to do 750 hours or 650 hours of study. Am sure that a short consultation with U.K. based operators could narrow down what is required.
Some basic up to date AGK with the A320 or 737ng and the CFM56 as a base aircraft to use and incorporating Instruments based on a glass cockpit. Perf, FP and M&B using an iPad OPT. Nav including Radio aids. HPL and Met. Pof without all the stability trivia. 5 or 6 exams ? Or better still just one Nav exam, one Tech exam, and a non-written Skills Test with a ground examiner?
The CAA seems to think if they stick with EASA exams they will somehow convince that they can rejoin, but reality is they really need a system they have the competence to manage. By default, this means something greatly simplified to what we have now!
Self-study is the norm for Type Rating, so as suggested above just publish a book or two containing what is required and get rid of this prescriptive need to do 750 hours or 650 hours of study. Am sure that a short consultation with U.K. based operators could narrow down what is required.
Some basic up to date AGK with the A320 or 737ng and the CFM56 as a base aircraft to use and incorporating Instruments based on a glass cockpit. Perf, FP and M&B using an iPad OPT. Nav including Radio aids. HPL and Met. Pof without all the stability trivia. 5 or 6 exams ? Or better still just one Nav exam, one Tech exam, and a non-written Skills Test with a ground examiner?
The CAA seems to think if they stick with EASA exams they will somehow convince that they can rejoin, but reality is they really need a system they have the competence to manage. By default, this means something greatly simplified to what we have now!
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Well, they say they want to do that, and if they did I would be there 100% but I think it's a question of resources. What EASA should have done is got the UK to write the questions then charge it back.
