L3 Harris, the final shafting

[RedDragonFlyer]

Terribly sad situation for all involved.

Hopefully though, it will encourage people in the future, when the economy improves, to ensure that they don't risk silly sums of money like these by paying massive sums up-front.


Don't most people who take out loans secure them against their (or, more likely, their parents) houses? If that's the case, bankruptcy certainly wouldn't help.
I actually know one guy who's desperately scrambling to find a job, any job, to repay his parents' mortgage. I can't imagine he's alone in doing that with basically no prospect of finding an aviation job in the next few years.

[Field Required]

Did any of these people not just take a moment to actually consider these consequences?

[PFD]

I expect they just thought that a company that has just paid its shareholders half a million dollars, wouldn’t shaft them financially.

Hindsight is a wonderful thing. What they really don’t need is condescension at this moment in time.

[Field Required]

Since beyond 2005 people on here have been pleading with people to take a moment to think about what they are getting into with integrated schemes. It's not exactly new science. It should never have been permitted in the first place.
You can't use a shareholder payout as the basis for risk when securing a 100k+ "personal" loan for something that's realistically worth 50% with no guaranteed return on investment. I mean from a financial risk point of view the alarm bells should have been going off well before even seeing a contract. But a dreams a dream, huh?

[parkfell]

Access to EZY for many was only through the MPL route and of course only the larger ATOs conduct these courses. So it is of no surprise that it seemed at route to follow.
After all, apart from the MPL hiccup FLYBE had some eight years ago, the UK CAA issued MPLs have successfully delivered what it said on the tin.
True, the CPL/IR route if interrupted is easier to complete, but how foreseeable was C-19.....?

[Field Required]

The MPL route is arguably a more controversial investment as you increase your risk as you narrow your options. All it took was for a relatively benign virus and boom, you're in 179K debt with nothing but a worthless piece of paper to show for it. The MPL route was incredibly risky and open to only those who could afford to lose 120k in all reality. The gamble paid off for some and now it's broken many. This practise should never have been allowed to go on in the first place and all those involved in the making of such a scheme should be the ones paying the price. Unfortunately for the Cadets, they are the ones who now suffer. The MPL should have only existed as a means for airlines to preselect and fully sponsor their future employees in a cost effective and forward thinking way.

[parkfell]

The majority of Integrated students want the “narrow option”
viz RHS multi crew, especially for those with an OML restriction.
A more focused approach for an airline apprenticeship.

Unless there is an Act of Parliament preventing ‘the scheme’, contractual relationships will eventually be resumed.

Aer Lingus did fully sponsor their MPL cadets, no doubt with a salary reduction as a payback for a number of years.

[guy_incognito]

Originally Posted by God_of_Fire

I'm not sure when this crisis has passed that anyone will be able to raise a loan to fund one of these training courses. Surely all those caught short by what's just happened must be considering a personal bankruptcy against their debt?

I don't think that an unsecured loan for training has been obtainable for many years now, so as has already been mentioned it's very likely that mummy and daddy are going to be on the hook for the full amount with the family home at stake.

I don't have any issue with the MPL as a concept. I think the training is far more useful for those who intend on airline flying to the exclusion of everything else. It's somewhat anachronistic to expect new pilots who intend never to operate outside a multi-crew environment to spend hours bashing the circuit or doing single pilot nav ex's. The MPL is a good product that does what it's designed for. It's just a shame that in the current circumstances it's a worthless piece of paper, but let's face it: a traditional frozen ATPL would be at the moment too!

[Alex Whittingham]

It doesn't need an Act of Parliament, the CAA could simply make it a condition of approval that there is a no cost get-out to CPL IR if it all goes Pete Tong. Apart from the training quality arguments one v obvious reason why the ATOs jumped at the MPL is that it is significantly cheaper to deliver than the integrated ATPL, bigger profit margins. Time to ask them to set aside some of their profits in a contingency fund?

[rudestuff]

Maybe it's time for someone with a can do attitude in charge of the CAA who actually knows about/likes aviation and who can get done?

[Alex Whittingham]

Maybe. CAA Board noting an Air Marshall that joined the RAF the year I left, oh dear, and a chap called Chris Tingle, who I guess may be on furlough this year

[parkfell]

The CAA may not be very keen to involve themselves with contractual matters.
They would need to treat ATOs similar to airlines, requiring financial stability with an ‘ATOL’ style scheme to protect the unfortunate customers left high & dry.
This would require primary legislation I suspect?

[Alex Whittingham]

I don't think so. With the CAA emerging from EASA rules they can set their own standards. Do you think the old CAPs governing approved schools were set in primary legislation? Of course not, they were made up on the hoof. Whether they will be brave enough to do so is another question.

[kungfu panda]

parkfell

That C-19 would spoil the party was not foreseeable but that something would come along and spoil it was 100% foreseeable. It always does. These MPL's were a Ponzi scheme. Very sorry for all who got caught holding the worthless tickets. Those who got what was written on the tin, good on you, the gamble paid off, you were lucky.

[Bearhunter]

EasyJet and Air France dumped L3Harris in the same week!

[Bearhunter]

L3Harris are the 5th largest military ordnance manufacturer worldwide. They are totally US owned and are in the game to do nothing but increase their wealth. They have never paid a penny of tax to the UK Government and never intend to.
That is with whom you are dealing.
I am truly sorry for those guys who have got involved and 'gotten' burnt.

[PPRuNeUser0178]

Originally Posted by parkfell

The actual MPL product is specifically trained for the RHS and given 120 hours multi crew training prior to type rating, compared to the MCC course students are clearly better prepared. That is not to say that some very competent MCC/JOC/APS students also succeed without issues.

Sorry, but as someone who has to sit beside the product I have to say that is wrong in many ways. Whilst an MPL cadet may be a whiz at the iPad actually flying the aircraft is a challenge and too many are chopped for inability to land and the fleet sees a lot of heavy landings. Line Captains are unfairly burdened sitting beside many of these cadets who could do with their entire first year being solely with training Captains. The Airbus (aircraft) deprives a pilot of a certain amount of “feel”. An Airbus simulator further compounds this problem and this is where most of an MPL learns their “feel”. A solid bedrock of being able to actually fly first as a PPL with 100 hours P1 would enhance what actual ends up on the flight deck. Sadly, too many MPLs simply cannot land and on the line when you find your self in a dark stormy night in a little
airfield as a Captain with an MPL you very quickly find yourself single pilot. The sooner this MPL is confined to history the better.

[PPRuNeUser0178]

guy_incognito

Same thoughts again, it puts a person who can not really fly in the flight deck. They have no feel for stalls ( Airbus pax allready dead in a stall ) cross winds, landing single engine ops outside a sim and if the skipper has a heart attack they are in charge. Skippers face day after day with these types and end up single pilot on anything other than calm cavok 10,000ft runways. And even that is a challenge to many. The MPL is dangerous. Pilots need a bedrock of being able to fly to fall back on for the day the Airbus doesn’t do what it’s supposed to.

[parkfell]

ezydriver
I would suggest that it depends to a large extent on the simulator type your cadets carried out their 120 hours of initial multi crew training. I would hazard a guess and say they did their training on an A.320 simulator?

My experience is with MPL students on a B.737-800 simulator.
The feedback from airlines with these cadets is not the unfortunate experience you describe.

Having watched the ITV series where EZY were carrying out base training etc, what you say comes as no surprise. Flying a stable approach on final did in some cases seem to be somewhat of a challenge !

Aer Lingus MPL cadets at FTE (until March) carried out their 120 hours on the B737-800 and not the A.320

As for 100 hours P1 on light ac, I am not entirely convinced. There is sufficient light ac flying on the MPL course to teach “the basics”: select the appropriate ATTITUDE and Trim. That does need to be taught properly, otherwise there is no solid foundation to build on.
It is possible that where your particular experiences all stem from: indifferent initial basic training.

Given the C-19 implosion the MPL scheme with it previous one sided financial arrangements is probably a dead duck anyway.
Your wish is granted.....

[robby239]

kungfu panda

Etihad started now a new MPL program with 787 type rating. Starting the pilot career with a 787 is an absolute dream but the probability that this program is a Ponzi scheme is also too high.