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I'd love a bit of guidance

Old 28th Nov 2019, 07:05
  #1 (permalink)  
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Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Somerset, UK
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I'd love a bit of guidance

Hi all

So I am thinking at the age of 32 of jumping back into flying.

Backstory, I have 205 hours, flying since 18. Got all my commercial subjects but didn't test, as I ran out of money and love for it really. I used to put a lot of pressure on myself and one iffy landing would ruin my month. I'd like to think I am a bit older and more relaxed now.

I am originally from the UK, but have lived in the Netherlands, South Africa and New Zealand. Career-wise I would like to settle in one of those countries. All my training was done in South Africa (but a long time ago).

My ideal aircraft to fly would be the 737-800 long term.

One gripe I had with my flight training when I was young was there was no career guidance. I was with a flying club, and although very friendly, they offered nothing in terms of direction, and I thought I was throwing money at nothing in the end.

I am single and have no ties except for an elderly father in the UK. I have GBP 25K of savings, and I work from home, which is ideal, as it allows me to be mobile.

So I am sat with an expired PPL, and a desire to hit things hard again... Where would you go from here ladies and gentlemen?

Langeveldt is offline  
Old 28th Nov 2019, 10:15
  #2 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
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Originally Posted by Langeveldt View Post
So I am sat with an expired PPL, and a desire to hit things hard again... Where would you go from here ladies and gentlemen?
Personally, if I was you, I'd go to your local airfield... find an aeroclub or flying school and arrange for an hour or so in the air... see if the passion is still there...

If it is, great... you can seek further guidance on what you'll need to do to get to where you want to go (get recurrent, get exams/flight tests completed etc).
If it isn't, you'll be out a few quid but you'll save yourself thousands.


RHSandLovingIt is offline  
Old 28th Nov 2019, 11:05
  #3 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 1999
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I am going to be realistic here, so no offence.

To gain an ATPL(A) licence and an appropriate type rating - the minimum required for an airline to even look at you - will cost you around £120,000 these days, I believe. (And no guarantee of passing all the tests).

Even then, you will have no airline experience, no jet, and no heavy aircraft experience.

I am a very experienced pilot, formerly with two large respected airlines that have both gone into liquidation in the last 2 years. I have 11,700 hours, including the Airbus 320/321 and A330 for 13 years, and 18 years’ overall commercial passenger airline experience. I cannot get a job...........

I would spend your £25k on something like glider flying, I really would.

PS, the Boeing 737 is a flying jeep, i.e., cramped and basic. Don’t discount the Airbus, it is a fantastic product.
Uplinker is offline  
Old 28th Nov 2019, 11:22
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Originally Posted by Uplinker View Post
I am going to be realistic here, so no offence.

To gain an ATPL(A) licence and an appropriate type rating - the minimum required for an airline to even look at you - will cost you around £120,000 these days, I believe. (And no guarantee of passing all the tests).

Even then, you will have no airline experience, no jet, and no heavy aircraft experience.

I am a very experienced pilot, formerly with two large respected airlines that have both gone into liquidation in the last 2 years. I have 11,700 hours, including the Airbus 320/321 and A330 for 13 years, and 18 years’ overall commercial passenger airline experience. I cannot get a job...........

I would spend your £25k on something like glider flying, I really would.

PS, the Boeing 737 is a flying jeep, i.e., cramped and basic. Don’t discount the Airbus, it is a fantastic product.
I've encountered a lot of optimism recently in the industry but I am sorry despite your experience you are having such a rough time of it.

Definitely not discounting any aircraft (and I think judging by your situation one cannot afford to be picky in the slightest?). I guess one cannot be picky about where you live either.

I've gone in for a couple of cadet programs (as I am getting to the top age bracket) and have failed the onboarding stages. They give you no feedback as to why which is frustrating. Cadet programs also tend to cater, if i am right, for those with no previous flying experience.

Thank you for your feedback and I hope your luck improves.
Langeveldt is offline  
Old 28th Nov 2019, 12:16
  #5 (permalink)  

de minimus non curat lex
 
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Originally Posted by Langeveldt View Post
Hi all

So I am thinking at the age of 32 of jumping back into flying.

Backstory, I have 205 hours, flying since 18. Got all my commercial subjects but didn't test, as I ran out of money and love for it really. I used to put a lot of pressure on myself and one iffy landing would ruin my month. I'd like to think I am a bit older and more relaxed now.........(gap).....
So I am sat with an expired PPL, and a desire to hit things hard?
Go to a flying club and have a Ďtrial lessoní again. If that rekindles the flame, then renew your medical. I assume you had a Class One? After 5 years from expiry, effectively an initial medical again, I think?
Renew your PPL and then the modular route for the EASA exams, whilst working.
A (renewed) journey of a thousand miles, starts with a single step.

By the time you have a valid PPL again, you will know whether you want to proceed further.
Slightly concerned about how a ropey landing caused such frustration. For a perfectionist, such a normal training event can seriously inhibit progress.
You might consider a psychometric assessment such as 16PF to assess your suitability before spending your hard earned money
parkfell is offline  
Old 28th Nov 2019, 13:01
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Join Date: Dec 2005
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Originally Posted by Uplinker View Post
To gain an ATPL(A) licence and an appropriate type rating - the minimum required for an airline to even look at you - will cost you around £120,000 these days, I believe. (And no guarantee of passing all the tests).
This is nonsense. Cancel that, complete nonsense.
To get an airline job you only need a frozen ATPL (CPL, MEIR and MCC/JOC). You definitely do not need an ATPL or a type rating. Obviously having them as well is helpful, but there are plenty of airlines that will pay for the type rating. To get a modular fATPL from scratch will cost £40k but in your case probably more like £20-25k as you need no hour building.
rudestuff is offline  
Old 28th Nov 2019, 13:32
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Join Date: Dec 2005
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Originally Posted by Langeveldt View Post
I have GBP 25K of savings

So I am sat with an expired PPL, and a desire to hit things hard again... Where would you go from here ladies and gentlemen?
There are many ways to skin a cat, but here's my advice:

1 Get an EASA class one medical. This is the most important step - perfectly fit people have gone all the way through their training to find they couldn't get a medical because of something they knew nothing about. Go to the CAA website and book an initial right now. You'll be buzzing once you've got the ball rolling!

2 Get to a school/club and go for a flight. You'll need a valid ICAO PPL to take the ATPL exams, so renew whatever licence you hold, or if it's easier, take an EASA PPL test. I stopped flying for 10 years and it took me 3 flights/3.9 hours to get back up to standard, so that should give you an idea.

3 Once you've got a valid PPL, sign up for ATPL ground school. I went for distance learning because it's cheaper and quicker (you don't have to go at the pace of the slowest person!) There is no need to fly much it at all during this phase (4 months to infinity depending on ability)

4 ATPLs in hand, get a night rating if you need one. If you have 5 hours night you'll be exempt. Then get an IRR and an IR via the CBIR route this can be single engine. No one does a full IR if they know the CBIR exists!

5 Once you have the IR, you will qualify for a reduced 15 hour CPL - again single engine. This is why you should almost always do the IR before the CPL. **You don't need to get a multi engine CPL, only an MEIR**

6 Multi engine time: Assuming you've never flown ME before, you need to do an MEP course of 6 hours. ***You do not need to take the test, just the course***
Now you can do a short 5 hour course to get the MEIR.

7 get an MCC/JOC on a suitable type (737 is a good one)

8 Find a job. Do your homework. Network. Be in the right place at the right time. Get lucky or create your own luck. I'd suggest buying a suitable wheel, tyre, jack and spanner, then follow the chief pilot of your chosen airline until he/she gets a puncture.
rudestuff is offline  
Old 28th Nov 2019, 17:03
  #8 (permalink)  
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Join Date: Feb 2003
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Originally Posted by rudestuff View Post
There are many ways to skin a cat, but here's my advice:

1 Get an EASA class one medical. This is the most important step - perfectly fit people have gone all the way through their training to find they couldn't get a medical because of something they knew nothing about. Go to the CAA website and book an initial right now. You'll be buzzing once you've got the ball rolling!

2 Get to a school/club and go for a flight. You'll need a valid ICAO PPL to take the ATPL exams, so renew whatever licence you hold, or if it's easier, take an EASA PPL test. I stopped flying for 10 years and it took me 3 flights/3.9 hours to get back up to standard, so that should give you an idea.

3 Once you've got a valid PPL, sign up for ATPL ground school. I went for distance learning because it's cheaper and quicker (you don't have to go at the pace of the slowest person!) There is no need to fly much it at all during this phase (4 months to infinity depending on ability)

4 ATPLs in hand, get a night rating if you need one. If you have 5 hours night you'll be exempt. Then get an IRR and an IR via the CBIR route this can be single engine. No one does a full IR if they know the CBIR exists!

5 Once you have the IR, you will qualify for a reduced 15 hour CPL - again single engine. This is why you should almost always do the IR before the CPL. **You don't need to get a multi engine CPL, only an MEIR**

6 Multi engine time: Assuming you've never flown ME before, you need to do an MEP course of 6 hours. ***You do not need to take the test, just the course***
Now you can do a short 5 hour course to get the MEIR.

7 get an MCC/JOC on a suitable type (737 is a good one)

8 Find a job. Do your homework. Network. Be in the right place at the right time. Get lucky or create your own luck. I'd suggest buying a suitable wheel, tyre, jack and spanner, then follow the chief pilot of your chosen airline until he/she gets a puncture.
Thanks for the very detailed feedback... Yes I'll be outside the chief pilot's local with some thumb tacks and a puncture repair kit.
Langeveldt is offline  
Old 29th Nov 2019, 03:23
  #9 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2019
Location: Sydney
Posts: 36
Speaking more broadly than most of the excellent advice above, and as an old bloke, I mostly regret the things I didnít do, rather than mistakes I made along the way.

Youíre still young. If itís your dream, give it your best shot.
JustinHeywood is offline  
Old 29th Nov 2019, 10:11
  #10 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 1999
Location: UK
Posts: 1,218
Glad to be corrected re the price.

Uplinker is offline  
Old 29th Nov 2019, 11:50
  #11 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
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Originally Posted by Uplinker View Post
Glad to be corrected re the price.
Sorry if I was a bit harsh, now I immediately feel bad!

There are a few big name rip off merchants will take £120k for an integrated course to be fair. But most people on a budget will opt to go modular. You can get an FAA PPL for £7000 and an FAA IR for about the same. Or you can get an EASA PPL for under £10k and follow it with an IR(R). You can still hour build in a group aircraft in the south of England for £75 per hour of you want to build time slowly, or you can fly 6 hours a day in the US because of better weather and availability. Either of those routes will put you in a position to do a CBIR course which depending on what you've done during your hour building could be anything from 5 to 25 hours, adding the MEIR and CPL works out under £10k. Even with a decent MCC/JOC there's no need to spend more than £40k.
rudestuff is offline  
Old 29th Nov 2019, 14:08
  #12 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 1999
Location: UK
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Well, at least you lived up to your forum name

I added the ‘I believe’ because I wasn’t sure if this was universally the case and you have corrected me, so everyone is happy

I would add that some airlines favour, or used to favour those who did a full time integrated CAP509 ATPL course with all the flying and classroom instruction for all the written exams included, over those who went the home study, hour building, CPL route. Some airline application forms I filled in many years ago asked this exact question.

But, good luck to the OP
Uplinker is offline  
Old 29th Nov 2019, 17:10
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Join Date: Jun 2018
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Originally Posted by rudestuff View Post

There are a few big name rip off merchants will take £120k for an integrated course to be fair.
You often get what you pay for. Such a price can be considered unreasonable since you could get the same with 60k or less, but these schools hardly stay in business unless their service is absolutely top-notch and centered around the student. In this sense, I can understand why there are people willing to pay such sums rather than do their training half the cost.

tsvpilot is offline  
Old 30th Nov 2019, 19:10
  #14 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
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Age: 41
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Originally Posted by tsvpilot View Post
You often get what you pay for. Such a price can be considered unreasonable since you could get the same with 60k or less, but these schools hardly stay in business unless their service is absolutely top-notch and centered around the student. In this sense, I can understand why there are people willing to pay such sums rather than do their training half the cost.
True. I don't know what I would do faced with the choice and the money to spend, especially if someone were telling me that the more expensive school would get me a better job.
What I do know is that for £120k I could get not only a CPL(A)/IR but also a CPL(H)/IR, both Flight instructor tickets and probably a float plane rating.
rudestuff is offline  
Old 4th Dec 2019, 12:13
  #15 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2019
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Not sure why you think 32 is getting towards the top age bracket for a cadet programme? You're still very young with a lot of life experience and maturity compared to someone fresh out of school at 17/18. It can definitely be seen as a positive, so long as your market it in that sense to a prospective employer.
thelowflyer is offline  

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