OATS
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OATS
WWW,
I am responding to one of the comments you made in the OATS thread that you have just closed.
You suggested (I am not quoting) that you should expect to take second place to the block booked courses and that one should go to another FTO like PAT or Bristol for a good customer experience.
I had a long conversation with Oxford the other day and I asked the following Questions.
Q - Will I fly every day if the weather permits?
A - Yes though once every couple of weeks we might have an instructor go sick, so you may be unlucky for one day.
Q - How many students are there per instructor?
A - No more than 3
Q - Is it true that sponsored students have priority over modular students?
A - No, this has never been the case and never will be.
Q - How long will it take to complete CRL/IR?
A – 4-5 weeks CPL and 6-7 weeks IR, this is dependent on the met at time of training.
WWW, would you then be upset after having a very nice conversation with someone who appears to speak with conviction and truly gives you the impression that things will go well. If then things were not as advertised when you arrived for day one of flying training?
I am not going to spend my money at OATS on flying until I am convinced that the answers to the above questions are true.
I invite people from modular flying courses at oxford to answer the questions above, based on their own experiences.
(I am using OATS for modular ground training and I am very happy with the notes, instructors and high level of customer service)
[ 03 December 2001: Message edited by: 200V AC, 3 Phase, 400 Hz ]
I am responding to one of the comments you made in the OATS thread that you have just closed.
You suggested (I am not quoting) that you should expect to take second place to the block booked courses and that one should go to another FTO like PAT or Bristol for a good customer experience.
I had a long conversation with Oxford the other day and I asked the following Questions.
Q - Will I fly every day if the weather permits?
A - Yes though once every couple of weeks we might have an instructor go sick, so you may be unlucky for one day.
Q - How many students are there per instructor?
A - No more than 3
Q - Is it true that sponsored students have priority over modular students?
A - No, this has never been the case and never will be.
Q - How long will it take to complete CRL/IR?
A – 4-5 weeks CPL and 6-7 weeks IR, this is dependent on the met at time of training.
WWW, would you then be upset after having a very nice conversation with someone who appears to speak with conviction and truly gives you the impression that things will go well. If then things were not as advertised when you arrived for day one of flying training?
I am not going to spend my money at OATS on flying until I am convinced that the answers to the above questions are true.
I invite people from modular flying courses at oxford to answer the questions above, based on their own experiences.
(I am using OATS for modular ground training and I am very happy with the notes, instructors and high level of customer service)
[ 03 December 2001: Message edited by: 200V AC, 3 Phase, 400 Hz ]
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I trained at OATS modular when it was based at Gloucester. I was one of the lucky ones and finished in the 'allocated' time. I had weather on my side, there were no BA or RAF cadets there at the time and I was there every day at all hours to ensure that I got my flying slots. Those students that did not show consistent commitment faired much worse! Now modular is based at Oxford, aircraft going tech is a bigger problem (at Gloucester it was normally sorted within hours). I'm no expert, but it would seem that Oxford has more operational restrictions and delays which effect the flying schedules. To top it all, it would appear from talking to mates who are currently training there, that there are not enough instructors for the number of students - 4 students per instructor is more realistic. Everything that you were told on the phone is the OATS 'ideal'. Reality is slightly different. IRTs will always get priority as well they should. 'Contracted' cadets also seem to be getting priority at the mo, whatever else may be said. If you make an effort to get on well with your instructor, he is likely to be more aware of your gripes and do what he can to keep you flying every day (as long as there's an a/c). If you're doing your ground school there, why don't you go and visit the modular school and ask the people who are there now! Things do change.
All that having been said, OATS on your CV is still highly highly valuable, so let's not knock it too much. Thanks WWW for closing that last thread. I for one do not want rumours to destroy the jobs of lots of good instructors - if it wasn't for them, where would we be. Ah shut up.
All that having been said, OATS on your CV is still highly highly valuable, so let's not knock it too much. Thanks WWW for closing that last thread. I for one do not want rumours to destroy the jobs of lots of good instructors - if it wasn't for them, where would we be. Ah shut up.
Caveat Emptor.
WWW
WWW
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Nobody is looking to destroy the jobs of good instructors - on that point I couldn't agree more. What I believe most people would like to see is some honesty from the marketing people instead of the blatant bare-faced lies they tell in order to get your money, and then some competent management of the course to ensure that they deliver what was promised.
Most of the belly aching on the subject is perhaps a little extreme at times, but most of it has some basis of truth, and given the vast cost (not just monetary) that many students incur in order to take their business to OATS, it is time that the service at least tried to match the hype instead of a constant stream of pathetic excuses and old cliches.
Oxford can do better, but for reasons only known to themselves, constantly fail to do so. Come on people - how long before you decide to make a real effort and get things sorted instead of sticking your fingers in the dyke!!!
Apres moi, le deluge.
Most of the belly aching on the subject is perhaps a little extreme at times, but most of it has some basis of truth, and given the vast cost (not just monetary) that many students incur in order to take their business to OATS, it is time that the service at least tried to match the hype instead of a constant stream of pathetic excuses and old cliches.
Oxford can do better, but for reasons only known to themselves, constantly fail to do so. Come on people - how long before you decide to make a real effort and get things sorted instead of sticking your fingers in the dyke!!!
Apres moi, le deluge.
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Coupla points I would also make on the last thread
1. Like WWW no one would accuse me of being an OATS lover. Still we both dislike the idle, damaging speculation.
2. I was not criticising anyone with definite information, or complaints about OATS, just those that spread wild rumours.
3. The SFT thread was in August. The company was perfectly healthy then. Anyone here actually remember what happened since then? Do any defending this speculation consider that a small part of SFT's problems may even have been caused by that irresponsible thread?
4. Yes large companies go bust. The point is OATS is a small part of a large company. Unless that large company itself has problems (which are not even suggested in the thread) then OATS will not go bust. Hence even if the rumours are accurate (a big 'if') then any panic is unreasonable.
1. Like WWW no one would accuse me of being an OATS lover. Still we both dislike the idle, damaging speculation.
2. I was not criticising anyone with definite information, or complaints about OATS, just those that spread wild rumours.
3. The SFT thread was in August. The company was perfectly healthy then. Anyone here actually remember what happened since then? Do any defending this speculation consider that a small part of SFT's problems may even have been caused by that irresponsible thread?
4. Yes large companies go bust. The point is OATS is a small part of a large company. Unless that large company itself has problems (which are not even suggested in the thread) then OATS will not go bust. Hence even if the rumours are accurate (a big 'if') then any panic is unreasonable.
Oh for Chrissakes people - OATS is not going bust.
People moan about sponsored cadets getting better attention at CABAIR and BAE as well you know. They always have and always will. Get over it. Its not fair, not right and not funny. But get over it 'cause it ain't going to change.
Moans about Kiddlington infrastructure and the aircraft fleet are perfectly valid but form but a tiny percentage of the postings made knocking OATS.
WWW
People moan about sponsored cadets getting better attention at CABAIR and BAE as well you know. They always have and always will. Get over it. Its not fair, not right and not funny. But get over it 'cause it ain't going to change.
Moans about Kiddlington infrastructure and the aircraft fleet are perfectly valid but form but a tiny percentage of the postings made knocking OATS.
WWW
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WWW,
In my previous reply, I posted the following:
"One thing that concerns me about all this is that I get the feeling from some quaters that being big implies a certain degree of security. 'xyz' is part of a multi billion pound company and cannot go under, frankly does not cut the mustard in the current climate. As someone has already mentioned, think ENRON. Worlds fourth largest company?
Business does not give a stuff where or who pays, but rest assured if it does not return a profit in the very near future, it will be closed down. Thats life.
I don't agree with idle speculation, however, I would caution anyone suggesting that any company, specialy ones in the iffy aviation training market at present, cannot close it's doors."
Shortly afterwards, the thread was closed.
Re the comment "Oh for Chrissakes people - OATS is not going bust.", well, I would again say that it's not advisable to make such comments in the present climate, but if it where me, I'd suggest it unlikely, but guard against it anyway as has already been stated time and time again.
One last point. BA may be making 12.5% of it's workforce redundant, but none of those is comming out of the pilots.
PS
In my previous reply, I posted the following:
"One thing that concerns me about all this is that I get the feeling from some quaters that being big implies a certain degree of security. 'xyz' is part of a multi billion pound company and cannot go under, frankly does not cut the mustard in the current climate. As someone has already mentioned, think ENRON. Worlds fourth largest company?
Business does not give a stuff where or who pays, but rest assured if it does not return a profit in the very near future, it will be closed down. Thats life.
I don't agree with idle speculation, however, I would caution anyone suggesting that any company, specialy ones in the iffy aviation training market at present, cannot close it's doors."
Shortly afterwards, the thread was closed.
Re the comment "Oh for Chrissakes people - OATS is not going bust.", well, I would again say that it's not advisable to make such comments in the present climate, but if it where me, I'd suggest it unlikely, but guard against it anyway as has already been stated time and time again.
One last point. BA may be making 12.5% of it's workforce redundant, but none of those is comming out of the pilots.
PS
Jet Blast Rat
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Polar Stereo
There is a big difference between OATS closing down and the large company that owns it going bust. That difference is the money paid by students for services not provided. Depending on the exact relationship the latter may be liable for this money.
[ 04 December 2001: Message edited by: Send Clowns ]
There is a big difference between OATS closing down and the large company that owns it going bust. That difference is the money paid by students for services not provided. Depending on the exact relationship the latter may be liable for this money.
[ 04 December 2001: Message edited by: Send Clowns ]
No problem.
WWW
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Jolly Boatman
Clearly you are far too level-headed and sensible to be an Oxford student. However do you hope to make it in the world with an attitude like that? For a starter, all your a/c are bound to crash as all mass and balance figures are calculated on the basis of every student having a sizeable chip on at least one shoulder, and feet large enough to fill the average student mouth.
I think you should come clean and own up to being a plant to winkle out all the idle speculators.
Clearly you are far too level-headed and sensible to be an Oxford student. However do you hope to make it in the world with an attitude like that? For a starter, all your a/c are bound to crash as all mass and balance figures are calculated on the basis of every student having a sizeable chip on at least one shoulder, and feet large enough to fill the average student mouth.
I think you should come clean and own up to being a plant to winkle out all the idle speculators.
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I don't normally post, but do I read Prune a lot. I have been at Oxford recently and frankly I am appalled at the management there and the aircraft servicability. I must stress however, that the instructors are excellent. I really feel for them - and the engineers - having to work in such a difficult environment. Yes, there are problems at every school, but this is different. The aircraft are literally falling to bits and there is plenty of time sitting about on the ground. I cannot be too specific, as it will be obvious who I am, but it took me AGES to do a small bit of training - the instructors worked hard, but the ops guys and management always screwed it up. It is time the parent company found out and made some changes. I would be very dissappointed to see Oxford go, at it has been and will be world class, but at the moment it is not - unless they change things and make it better. I really hope they do, as it would be a crying shame to see it go.
If you want to see Oxford stay, MAKE IT BETTER or people will vote with their feet - enough said.
[ 04 December 2001: Message edited by: ornithopter ]
If you want to see Oxford stay, MAKE IT BETTER or people will vote with their feet - enough said.
[ 04 December 2001: Message edited by: ornithopter ]
I have yet to read a post about a flying school that did not state that the insructors were demi-gods and that the course was great fun BUT the management/marketing/maintenance/admin side were the spawn of Satan.
No conclusions, merely observations...
WWW
No conclusions, merely observations...
WWW
Jet Blast Rat
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Ah, but WWW that is not true, is it? Plenty of people praised the ops and admin people at SFT when it was running (with good reason) and the management made some errors, and been unlucky but I never saw them being reviled here.
In fact the worst mistake, that put the company in a state vulnerable to the recent difficulties was made not in management but in the classroom, by an instructor happily long gone by the time I arrived even as a student.
On the other hand I have experienced and heard of very poor admin in other schools, remaining nameless as it would be unfair for me to attack them.
In fact the worst mistake, that put the company in a state vulnerable to the recent difficulties was made not in management but in the classroom, by an instructor happily long gone by the time I arrived even as a student.
On the other hand I have experienced and heard of very poor admin in other schools, remaining nameless as it would be unfair for me to attack them.
