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Wings Alliance APC

Old 10th Nov 2017, 03:02
  #1 (permalink)  
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Join Date: Aug 2017
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Wings Alliance APC

Does anybody have any recent experience with the Airline Pilot Certificate?
What was the MCC JOC course like and have they helped with securing any interviews etc.
Iím looking into the course but cannot find much recent feedback. Anyone have any info/recommendations?
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Old 10th Nov 2017, 09:49
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I am literally about to pack my bags to drive off down to Clevedon for the first part of my APC course, which starts tomorrow.

At this stage I donít know what itís going to be like, but Iíll try to post updates here during the next three weeks of the course.

The first part is 3 days of classroom training, followed by 10 days of sim training, ending with a further 4 days of classroom.

Of course, the very first part of it was a month or two ago, which was a one-day assessment where they put you through group exercises, individual planning exercises and an interview. There were five chaps on my day, and I donít know how many of us were selected. Iíll see if I can find out.

Prior to that, I had previously done a training day through AirlinePrep, which gave valuable insight and tips on doing the interview, group exercises and numerical reasoning test. I recommend doing this.
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Old 10th Nov 2017, 10:31
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Hi Platinum503,

To answer your question: yes, I have done this course in August. To be honest I decided to do their course when I was at a meeting organized by Kura Aviation. The difference with them is that WA is much younger and so far has a less extended network when it comes to Airlines. But... they also offer an excellent course for a much better price. It will save you about 3000 GBP! The course itself I experienced as vťry good, very complete and extensive. The sim sessions are on a B747. That might be a bit overdone, but in the end it is one of the most complex aircraft with 4 engines and thus you learn a huge deal about what the course it about: working together, CRM, communication, JOC and, very important, give you insight and train the use of pilot specific competencies. After all it's also a lot of fun, to be able to fly a 747 . The theoretical part is very interactive and covers all you need to know including interview practice, a review on your CV etc. The aftercare is also very good. They really try to help you to secure the job even with airlines that are not linked to them: my cover letters are reviewed, I get tips, they help to find open positions etc. The "downside" of WA is that their network is very limited to this time. Monarch was part of their network, but you know what happened to them. That leaves 3 connected airlines so far. It is after all waiting for those airlines when they start to hire, this is something WA can't force. But I am now introduced to one of their connected airlines and I have 2 other assessments with other airlines. Without this training I never would have gotten this far! So, yes they deliver and I would really recommend you to go to their selection. It is a huge amount of learning and fun for a very competitive price.

Last edited by Renonevada; 10th Nov 2017 at 19:36. Reason: bad English, need to add something
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Old 10th Nov 2017, 10:57
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Hi Platinum503,

I did the Wing Alliance APC course this year, thanks to them I am now waiting patiently to start an Airbus type rating with a UK airline.

A year prior to this I did a MCC/JOC at Simtech, but I chose to do the Wing Alliance course even though I already had the piece of paper due to (i) skill atrophy (ii) their connections/track record and (iii) feedback from interviews that told me I needed to work on my non-technical skills.

Although at the time I thought the Simtech course was great, the Wings Alliance course is a level above in my opinion. My feeling in hindsight is that my Simtech course was essentially ticking the boxes of the legal requirements and training to pass the Ryanair sim assessment, whereas my Wings Alliance course was comprehensive training to be a first officer. I'm not knocking Simtech as it's very clear that is what they are selling you, and it works well for many people. The WA course included a lot of training in the non-technical skills and interview techniques that are essential for a numpty like me passing HR-led selection.

Perhaps one of the best things from my perspective is what comes after the course is over, where the staff at WA maintain personal contact with you and point you toward opportunities. The team there work hard to get the best for you, if you've studied with BGS you'll be familiar with the open, friendly culture - it's not a sausage factory owned by a multinational that is interested in increasing shareholder returns per unit. From what I understand, they have different relationships with various airlines and they are sometimes asked for pilots, or can endorse/tag your application in an open recruitment call. In my case, I believe their recommendation was instrumental in securing an interview and the non-technical training I received was essential in the selection process. I know for a fact that if had got to the selection day without the WA APC I wouldn't have got anywhere close to the last stage.

They are still in their early days, but they have been very successful thus far in getting people into airline jobs and are still growing. I couldn't recommend them enough. Feel free to PM If you have specific questions.
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Old 10th Nov 2017, 19:44
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Join Date: Nov 2017
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What I kind of forgot to mention is actually that my primary reason for joining WA (and not the competition) is that they actively put you forward to one of their connected airlines. They don't take to many students and they have a stringent selection process in advance which secures success for (almost) 100%. So far, every student got a position soon after graduating. The competition might have a more extensive network, but they are not actively putting you forward to any of their connected airlines. They would help you as long as needed, but I liked the way WA operates much more. If you succeed with their selection process you're sure of success later on!
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Old 10th Nov 2017, 19:44
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Thanks for the info. It does sound like it goes beyond the basic mcc joc which cant be a bad thing.
Thank you for the replies and good luck 😎
Platinum503 is offline  
Old 11th Nov 2017, 18:33
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Join Date: Mar 2013
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Guys,

Correct me if I'm wrong but WA is just a group of training schools isn't it or do they actually do their own training?

I'm local to Aeros Gloucester who appear as a member but Aeros also have their Fastrack scheme so not sure of the difference really?

Cheers
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Old 12th Nov 2017, 12:50
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@BirdmanBerry, I'm not sure, but this Q can only be answered if there is someone on this forum that is also from Aeros G and has done the WA course. Only then a comparison can be made. You answered your first question yourself already: WA is an alliance of schools from which they know a particular quality of training is given and thus most of the students from these facilities have the high level needed to continue for a position at airlines. But WA do the last part of your ATPL training, i.e. JOC/MCC and a lot more as you can read above. That's why it is called APC course. Specifically the latter part is extremely important to get ready for an airline position at the required level airlines demand. WA does that very well. 100% of their students have been placed at an airline so far. So you can ask yourself: is the Gloucester Fasttrack also this successful? Since your school is actually part of the alliance, I'd suggest you to simply talk to your instructors about it and let them advice you. They certainly know the pro's and con's comparing the 2 possibilities. Have you read the website? It explains everything much better. Go to the Pilot training tab and then airline pilot certificate.
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Old 12th Nov 2017, 17:50
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Join Date: Nov 2017
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Hi,

I did the APS/APC Course recently, in September.

Overall I think it was a fantastic course and I feel fully prepared for my airline assessments! The instructors and staff at WA are really helpful too and have stayed in contact, assisting me with the all-important first job. Things are going well at the moment!

As far as the course goes, it is an advanced MCC/JOC containing a lot more material, and has been tailored towards providing the airlines with the type of candidates they are looking for. You will be partnered with another student on the course and alternate between PM and PF roles. It is not just an attendance course, you will be required to pass assessments throughout and receive a comprehensive debrief after each day.

We did 40 hours on the Boeing 747-400 at Cardiff Aviation. It was an incredible experience! The facilities at Cardiff are great also. My advice if you choose to go ahead is to do some research and learn the SOP's very well before you go. This will free up lots more capacity for you.

I also did my training at Aeros, and yes they have their fast track scheme which looks good. They do however also recommend WA, but the choice is yours to decide which one you wish to do. The APS Course is a very new thing but will give you those extra skills that could make all the difference.

If you have any more questions then please feel free to PM me, and Good Luck!
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Old 13th Nov 2017, 10:40
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BirdmanBerry,

The WA APC is the only part of the route run by WA themselves, the sim is provided by Cardiff Aviation, but with WA staff and some of the classroom work is done in partnership with some of the folks from AirlinePrep in the Bristol Groundschool premises in Clevedon. From looking at the Aeros website it looks like the main difference between the two routes is right at the end for the MCC/JOC. If you look at Aeros MCC page, they send you to Simtech so my comments above will apply. Like the others said, it's up to you where to spend the cash as the products are different, one is a good quality bare bones course and the other features a great deal more.

The WA course is £7,500 and the Simtech course (when bought separately) is €5,500, so that's approx £2,500 more for the WA course at the moment. Having done both courses, in my view it's a no brainer to go to WA as you get twice as much stick time in a full motion B747-400 sim (rather than a fixed 'B737-style' sim with a chintzy LCD monitor as an overhead panel). My instructors at WA were all current airline pilots, whereas as some at Simtech retired a number of years ago, which made a big difference in the way they taught things. Perhaps just as important are the 2 days worth of pilot core competencies course (run in conjunction with Airlineprep), which was absolutely key for me in understanding what interviewers were actually asking. After the courses, Simtech said thanks and to drop them a line when I had a job, whereas WA staff were in contact regularly, helping find vacancies and offering to check CVs, cover letters etc. and offering advice when needed - it feels like the course isn't over until you have that interview and secure that job.

My advice (which anyone is free to disagree with) is to not cheap out on this last stage of your training. The price difference between the two courses mentioned here is relatively small in the whole scheme of things. I've noted that some posters on PPRuNe see the MCC/JOC as a tick in a box and to get it done as cheaply and quickly as possible, but I say if you are a freshly minted 200-hr CPL to take this opportunity to do the enhanced WA course and take full advantage of the extra training that was probably not a part of your flying courses thus far. In my own case these are the things that got me an airline offer; I can tell you that on my airline selection day there were eleven people to start the day (included quite experienced people), all but three got sent home before morning tea and only two got through to the sim stage - both had done the WA APC and we both had an offer at the end of selection. Remember, you could be unlucky and only ever get one shot at an airline interview and you want to go in as prepared as you possibly can, as competition is fierce!

All the best with your choices.

Last edited by gfunc; 13th Nov 2017 at 10:44. Reason: More info
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Old 13th Nov 2017, 17:36
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Originally Posted by Renonevada View Post
Monarch was part of their network, but you know what happened to them..
I don't recall Monarch being connected to WA, was this something you were told by WA or heard through someone else?
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Old 13th Nov 2017, 19:28
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Join Date: Mar 2013
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Thanks all.

I'm actually ab-initio apart from 4-5 hours over the last 10 years! So if I decide to go for this at my age it is critical to make the correct decision which won't jeopardise a future career at the start by making me unemployable.

I have no allegiance to Aeros but have heard good things and they're 5 minutes from my house! I've discounted the L3/OAA route, if I do go ahead.

Can I ask if all of you who have done the WA course are employed and with what sort of airline?

Many thanks all.
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Old 15th Nov 2017, 05:25
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gfunc,

Just wondering where you done your CPL/ME/IR? Well done on the job offer
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Old 15th Nov 2017, 22:20
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Yes they were at the time I was doing my course. It was on their website.
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Old 5th Apr 2018, 20:13
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I just want advice.. I hold the CPL with MCC, but done it more than 5 years ago, do you believe is a good idea to do APC right now at my age of 32? Or better go for a type rating self sponsor? Or would you do FI? I'm not sure but there are so many possibilities, not sure what Is best...

I gotta say, I'm currently updated, with my IR and ME and CRM , with 737-8 fixed sim , attending once every week, since 6 months.

Thanks for the help
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Old 6th Apr 2018, 00:39
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Originally Posted by gfunc View Post
Hi Platinum503,

I did the Wing Alliance APC course this year, thanks to them I am now waiting patiently to start an Airbus type rating with a UK airline.

A year prior to this I did a MCC/JOC at Simtech, but I chose to do the Wing Alliance course even though I already had the piece of paper due to (i) skill atrophy (ii) their connections/track record and (iii) feedback from interviews that told me I needed to work on my non-technical skills.
Wasn't a problem for them if you did a MCC already before?
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Old 6th Apr 2018, 10:56
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Originally Posted by Cadet737B View Post
I just want advice.. I hold the CPL with MCC, but done it more than 5 years ago, do you believe is a good idea to do APC right now at my age of 32? Or better go for a type rating self sponsor? Or would you do FI? I'm not sure but there are so many possibilities, not sure what Is best...

I gotta say, I'm currently updated, with my IR and ME and CRM , with 737-8 fixed sim , attending once every week, since 6 months.

Thanks for the help
Tough choice! One thing I would recommend against is doing a speculative type rating without a firm job offer: you'll waste your money as every company will want you trained to their SOPs so you might even end up paying for two type ratings. The FI is only worth doing if you actually have a passion for teaching - for the sake of the next generation of pilots please don't go this route if your motive is just to keep the logbook ticking over (invest that cash in a C152 share instead). I'm not sure what you are alluding to saying "at my age of 32"; if you think you are past it I did the APC at 36 and my TR at 37.

One thing I suggest you research further (I confess haven't looked into it as I'm onto the next stage) is the forthcoming proposed changes to the MCC (I think called MCC-APS) that could affect you applying for jobs in the future as might mean your 5-year old MCC doesn't meet the selection criteria. From what I understand, the WA course in its current form is compliant with the proposals - please do check with people who know!



Originally Posted by LaGuardia View Post
Wasn't a problem for them if you did a MCC already before?
No it wasn't an issue as they put me on a shorter (and cheaper) course.
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Old 7th Apr 2018, 02:20
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[QUOTE=gfunc;10109050]I'm not sure what you are alluding to saying "at my age of 32"; if you think you are past it I did the APC at 36 and my TR at 37.

Thank you... The thing is I feel I'm getting older to spend 9000E and still wait again for a holding that can come or not.

Do you know what is the average WA is getting for a non-modular pilot who just joins for the APC?

Do you believe my chances will increase If I do this course instead?

I see all my mates that have done FI are already working as FO In some company...

However, I see faster going for something like a pay to fly.. but I'm really worried if that means closing many doors.

A very stressful situation with many possibilities and I don't want to screw it...
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Old 7th Apr 2018, 18:35
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According to the Wings Alliance, they have a 100% success record. So if you can pass the assessment, I think you'll be in with a good chance. However, I think the quality of their course is more to do with the success of their students than the airline connections they have.

However, you should send them an email, as I'm not sure if you can do the APC unless you have completed some of your training at a WA school such as BGS, or Bartolini for example.
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