New Visa Requirements for Training in the U.S.A.
Thread Starter
The Oracle
Joined: Aug 2001
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From: Naples, Florida U.S.A.
New Visa Requirements for Training in the U.S.A.
On May 27, 2002 the New York Times printed an article titled, "Flight Schools See Downside to Crackdown"
In the article it is stated:
The INS is no longer talking about minimum flight times for exemptions to the rule. Now you cannot be granted entry to the U.S.A. without the proper Visa.
(Note to Moderators: I am double posting this thread in Wannabes and Private Flying since it applies to both threads. I hope that is not a problem)
Happy Flying,
Capt. Richard J. Gentil, Pres.
Naples Air Center, Inc.
In the article it is stated:
But under the new rules, schools and colleges cannot admit foreigners carrying tourist visas. A school that does so, including a small flight school, can lose its right to admit any foreign students, according to Russ Bergeron, a spokesman for the immigration service.
(Note to Moderators: I am double posting this thread in Wannabes and Private Flying since it applies to both threads. I hope that is not a problem)
Happy Flying,
Capt. Richard J. Gentil, Pres.
Naples Air Center, Inc.
Why do it if it's not fun?
Joined: Jul 2001
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From: Bournemouth
I just posted some similar questions on Private Flying...
Might be an idea if some friendly moderator can combine the two threads, and have just one thread which appears on both forums - don't know if that's possible?
FFF
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Might be an idea if some friendly moderator can combine the two threads, and have just one thread which appears on both forums - don't know if that's possible?
FFF
----------
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Posts: 1,981
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From: He's on the limb to nowhere
The previous paragraph should also have been quoted, IMO.
So if you don't want to enroll in a school, like most recreational flyers coming to the US on the visa waiver scheme, this new change would not appear to apply. Status quo - for now!
It's not going to be a trivial matter for companies that rent planes to check citizenship of everybody who walks through the door. Most Americans don't have a passport. When applying for a job here, you have to prove eligibility to work, but that's not the same as proving citizenship. Most people do this using a drivers licence and social security card, neither of which prove citizenship.
Mohamed Atta, the man believed to be the hijackers' leader, entered the country on June 3, 2000, on a tourist visa. That September he asked to change to a student visa so that he could attend flight school, according to the immigration service. He began taking classes while his request was pending, a common practice among foreign students that was then permitted under immigration law.
It's not going to be a trivial matter for companies that rent planes to check citizenship of everybody who walks through the door. Most Americans don't have a passport. When applying for a job here, you have to prove eligibility to work, but that's not the same as proving citizenship. Most people do this using a drivers licence and social security card, neither of which prove citizenship.
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From: He's on the limb to nowhere
Richard,
If I was to turn up at your FBO with my FAA certificate, FAA medical, British accent, and the only photo ID I have is a CO drivers licence. I ask to be checked out so I could rent a plane, what would your procedures be?
So you ask me my citizenship, nothing wrong with that, and I say I am an American. What do you do now? Call the FBI?
What if I ask in my cute accent to enroll in formal course? I say I am an American, but cannot prove it, like most people in this country who claim to be Americans. What do you do now?
Have you heard anything formal from the INS/FBI about this, or is it just what you learn from the NYT?
(I keep adding scenarios, sorry)
If I was to turn up at your FBO with my FAA certificate, FAA medical, British accent, and the only photo ID I have is a CO drivers licence. I ask to be checked out so I could rent a plane, what would your procedures be?
So you ask me my citizenship, nothing wrong with that, and I say I am an American. What do you do now? Call the FBI?
What if I ask in my cute accent to enroll in formal course? I say I am an American, but cannot prove it, like most people in this country who claim to be Americans. What do you do now?
Have you heard anything formal from the INS/FBI about this, or is it just what you learn from the NYT?
(I keep adding scenarios, sorry)
Last edited by slim_slag; 28th May 2002 at 17:28.
Joined: May 2002
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From: belgium
Slim slag, get off the band wagon... If you reread the original post and change your mindset I think its aimed at those poor students coming to the USA from the EU and getting knocked back at the airport as they havent got a visa. There are about 3 schools in Florida alone that advertise their wares to the UK market and dont hold visa approval. If I were a student aiming to fly in the USA I would steer well clear of any school that does not hold M1 or J1 visa approval. Its simply not worth the risk of paying for an airfare and course deposit.
There is no real excuse for a school to not hold the visa approval whether they be in the USA or the UK. Its kind of false advertising really, that is, to advertise that you offer a course but cant issue the students the correct visas to train in the schools' country.
There is no real excuse for a school to not hold the visa approval whether they be in the USA or the UK. Its kind of false advertising really, that is, to advertise that you offer a course but cant issue the students the correct visas to train in the schools' country.
Thread Starter
The Oracle
Joined: Aug 2001
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From: Naples, Florida U.S.A.
slim_slag,
I do not have many answers at the moment. Right now we are going to try to establish the status and identity of every person that comes to NAC un announced. Our students which book courses in advance are sent theM-1 Visa form as standard procedure.
As stated in your quote from the New York Times, it is no longer allowed to train while you file for a change of status. In the section I quoted you cannot you cannot be admitted to a school with a tourist Visa. The language sounds like a admission to a large school or university, but in there they mention small flight schools, meaning any school.
I currently in contact with the chairman of the House aviation subcommittee and hope to get some answers on procedures and requirements soon.
Take Care,
Richard
I do not have many answers at the moment. Right now we are going to try to establish the status and identity of every person that comes to NAC un announced. Our students which book courses in advance are sent theM-1 Visa form as standard procedure.
As stated in your quote from the New York Times, it is no longer allowed to train while you file for a change of status. In the section I quoted you cannot you cannot be admitted to a school with a tourist Visa. The language sounds like a admission to a large school or university, but in there they mention small flight schools, meaning any school.
I currently in contact with the chairman of the House aviation subcommittee and hope to get some answers on procedures and requirements soon.
Take Care,
Richard
Joined: Jan 2001
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From: He's on the limb to nowhere
Richard,
Thanks for the answer. I think it is now wise for anybody coming over from Europe to do any sort of flying "course" to obtain a student visa. I would not have said that prior to Sep 11th, now it's too much of a risk to be knocked back at US immigration, even if the INS officer's decision is not technically valid.
I guess if I came to your place and wanted to rent a plane, as I cannot prove citizenship, there would be a good chance I would have to take my business elsewhere! As I cannot yet see Americans accepting the goverment telling them they have to carry citizenship papers, I suspect the only other option is some sort of 'pre-screening' for all individuals who want to rent a small plane. Bit of a hassle, I guess they could use the systems they are setting up/are in place for firearms purchase, still doesn't stop bad people with clean records learning how to fly.
I haven't had problems renting planes since 9/11 when I've been travelling around the US. Of course I don't appear to be a stereotypical terrorist, and all places are still pleased to see me. I am sure this is of great importance to you, and I think it would be a tragedy to see your business suffer.
Cheers
approachto19
I'm not sure what "bandwagon" I am on here, I'm just posting what I believe is a clarification, and also asking questions of somebody who owns a place that rents planes out. You may not want to know the answers, but I can tell others may be interested, I certainly am.
I would guess that in the current climate, Schools which are in breach of immigration procedures will be getting a visit from the Feds. That is a good thing, but has nothing to do with the article or this thread, I believe.
I'm not sure what the rest of your post has got to do with anything I have said about the matter, but I am always open to discussion if you can provide some hints
I understand you are required to carry photo ID in Belgium, in the US we are not, maybe that will help you understand what I am getting at. Different country, different constitution, different lots of things. Not always better, not always worse, just different.
cheers.
Thanks for the answer. I think it is now wise for anybody coming over from Europe to do any sort of flying "course" to obtain a student visa. I would not have said that prior to Sep 11th, now it's too much of a risk to be knocked back at US immigration, even if the INS officer's decision is not technically valid.
I guess if I came to your place and wanted to rent a plane, as I cannot prove citizenship, there would be a good chance I would have to take my business elsewhere! As I cannot yet see Americans accepting the goverment telling them they have to carry citizenship papers, I suspect the only other option is some sort of 'pre-screening' for all individuals who want to rent a small plane. Bit of a hassle, I guess they could use the systems they are setting up/are in place for firearms purchase, still doesn't stop bad people with clean records learning how to fly.
I haven't had problems renting planes since 9/11 when I've been travelling around the US. Of course I don't appear to be a stereotypical terrorist, and all places are still pleased to see me. I am sure this is of great importance to you, and I think it would be a tragedy to see your business suffer.
Cheers
approachto19
I'm not sure what "bandwagon" I am on here, I'm just posting what I believe is a clarification, and also asking questions of somebody who owns a place that rents planes out. You may not want to know the answers, but I can tell others may be interested, I certainly am.
I would guess that in the current climate, Schools which are in breach of immigration procedures will be getting a visit from the Feds. That is a good thing, but has nothing to do with the article or this thread, I believe.
I'm not sure what the rest of your post has got to do with anything I have said about the matter, but I am always open to discussion if you can provide some hints
I understand you are required to carry photo ID in Belgium, in the US we are not, maybe that will help you understand what I am getting at. Different country, different constitution, different lots of things. Not always better, not always worse, just different.cheers.
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From: belgium
Slim
The last bit in my post about schools advertising whilst they cannot actually issue visas dawned on me whilst reading this thread.
It too would be a good topic of conversation.
It also appears , you must agree, that the only schools who have trouble getting students into their countries are ones in America. Schools in the EU have lots of foreign students, but they all play it by the book.
I just wish that all these school in the USA would play it by the book, ie have visa approval status. Some schools in the USA with JAA approvals appear to be taking advantage of the situation they are in and are ripping EU citizens off, ie taking their money and not being legal to take them. It would be a great shame to Eu aviation if training in the USA was to stop, and just for the sake of some cowboy fto operators.
The last bit in my post about schools advertising whilst they cannot actually issue visas dawned on me whilst reading this thread.
It too would be a good topic of conversation.
It also appears , you must agree, that the only schools who have trouble getting students into their countries are ones in America. Schools in the EU have lots of foreign students, but they all play it by the book.
I just wish that all these school in the USA would play it by the book, ie have visa approval status. Some schools in the USA with JAA approvals appear to be taking advantage of the situation they are in and are ripping EU citizens off, ie taking their money and not being legal to take them. It would be a great shame to Eu aviation if training in the USA was to stop, and just for the sake of some cowboy fto operators.
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From: 75N 16E
Slim,
Not entirely true. I was refused a packet of ciggies in Vons (I was 26) becasue no photo ID. I was refused entry into a bar in California by some snotty nosed kid because my UK photo driving licence was not acceptable (I was 30) . I was carded last time I bought a bottle of Vodka in Ralphs (I'm 32) and my British passport was 'not acceptable as proof of age'..Company policy apparently....what a bunch of *****. And heaven forbid you get pulled over by 'John Denver' of the California Highway Patrol for doing 100 miles an hour down the I5, and have no photo ID....
I wonder how these changes will affect people who are members of a Flying Club rather than FTO. In San Diego there is an organisation called Pacific Coast Flyers. Its not an FTO, you pay yearly dues, then get given a key to all the clubs aircraft. You basically turn up and take an aircraft as long as one is free. If I choose to go to the US on holiday, and then decide on the spur of the moment to go flying, how can anyone stop me???
Cheers
EA
I understand you are required to carry photo ID in Belgium, in the US we are not
I wonder how these changes will affect people who are members of a Flying Club rather than FTO. In San Diego there is an organisation called Pacific Coast Flyers. Its not an FTO, you pay yearly dues, then get given a key to all the clubs aircraft. You basically turn up and take an aircraft as long as one is free. If I choose to go to the US on holiday, and then decide on the spur of the moment to go flying, how can anyone stop me???
Cheers
EA
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From: He's on the limb to nowhere
Not entirely true....
All those are considered "privileges". You do not need to carry photo ID in the US when walking around in the streets, unlike some countries in Europe. There is a de-facto ID in your drivers licence, but it does not prove citizenship, which lots of these new regs seem to revolve around. You are required to carry photo ID when you are exercising the privileges of your FAA certificate, or driving a car.
Re hassles with old British Passport with age handwritten using ink pen, tell me about it
All those are considered "privileges". You do not need to carry photo ID in the US when walking around in the streets, unlike some countries in Europe. There is a de-facto ID in your drivers licence, but it does not prove citizenship, which lots of these new regs seem to revolve around. You are required to carry photo ID when you are exercising the privileges of your FAA certificate, or driving a car.
Re hassles with old British Passport with age handwritten using ink pen, tell me about it
Joined: Apr 2002
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From: UK
Interesting to hear all the news regarding visa requirements esp from NAC. However, I get conflicting advice from other Florida schools. Apparently BFC say that nothing is required to enter for the PPL for example. Due to the student not exceeding the 18hours a week of training I believe. I feel that there are alot of wannabes out there that are getting pretty concerned about which schools require visas and if some schools don't, why??
The record needs to be set straight by someone, for all.
Cheers
The record needs to be set straight by someone, for all.
Cheers
Thread Starter
The Oracle
Joined: Aug 2001
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From: Naples, Florida U.S.A.
PD210,
It is not the school that requires students to hold a Visa its the U.S. Government. From what I understand, although there still needs to be further clarification, any non U.S. citizen will need a Student Visa for any flight training. This applies to all schools.
Prior to Monday's newspaper article, it was understood that anyone attending a course with less than 18 hours of study per week could complete this without a Visa.
Now according to Russ Bergeron, the spokesman for the Immigration and Naturalization Service:
Take Care,
Capt. Richard J. Gentil, Pres.
Naples Air Center, Inc.
It is not the school that requires students to hold a Visa its the U.S. Government. From what I understand, although there still needs to be further clarification, any non U.S. citizen will need a Student Visa for any flight training. This applies to all schools.
Prior to Monday's newspaper article, it was understood that anyone attending a course with less than 18 hours of study per week could complete this without a Visa.
Now according to Russ Bergeron, the spokesman for the Immigration and Naturalization Service:
under the new rules, schools and colleges cannot admit foreigners carrying tourist visas.
Capt. Richard J. Gentil, Pres.
Naples Air Center, Inc.
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 1,981
Likes: 0
From: He's on the limb to nowhere
mutt
Where does this leave those of us with an FAA ATPL, Jet Rated, European, who are visiting the US on business/pleasure and want to rent an aircraft for some fun?
As you are European and primarily for business/pleasure you can enter on the visa waiver scheme. Take your credentials to somewhere than rents planes, get checked out, and have fun.
Where does this leave those of us with an FAA ATPL, Jet Rated, European, who are visiting the US on business/pleasure and want to rent an aircraft for some fun?
As you are European and primarily for business/pleasure you can enter on the visa waiver scheme. Take your credentials to somewhere than rents planes, get checked out, and have fun.
Thread Starter
The Oracle
Joined: Aug 2001
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From: Naples, Florida U.S.A.
I just had a lengthy meeting with Homeland Security. After discussions over the last several weeks they finally came with answers to my questions.
If someone wants to come to the U.S.A. to build hours or do any other pleasure flying they are ok to enter the country on the Visa Waiver Program and have a holiday flying.
As of April 12, 2002 no person can enter the U.S.A. and train on a Tourist Visa or a Visa Waiver. The 18 hours of study per week loophole has been removed. If you are going to train in the U.S.A. after April 12, 2002 you MUST BE ON A F-1, M-1, or J--1 Visa.
Here is a printable link to the new Regulation:
Requiring Change of Status From B to F-1 or M-1 Nonimmigrant
Here is some of the points in the new code:
If anyone has questions, please ask me and I endeavor to get the answers from my contacts in Homeland Security.
Take Care,
Capt. Richard J. Gentil, Pres.
Naples Air Center, Inc.
[Note to the moderators, I have posted this on the threads in Wannabes and Private Flying.]
If someone wants to come to the U.S.A. to build hours or do any other pleasure flying they are ok to enter the country on the Visa Waiver Program and have a holiday flying.
As of April 12, 2002 no person can enter the U.S.A. and train on a Tourist Visa or a Visa Waiver. The 18 hours of study per week loophole has been removed. If you are going to train in the U.S.A. after April 12, 2002 you MUST BE ON A F-1, M-1, or J--1 Visa.
Here is a printable link to the new Regulation:
Requiring Change of Status From B to F-1 or M-1 Nonimmigrant
Here is some of the points in the new code:
DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE
Immigration and Naturalization Service
8 CFR Parts 214 and 248
[INS No. 2195-02]
RIN 1115-AG60
Requiring Change of Status From B to F-1 or M-1 Nonimmigrant
Prior to Pursuing a Course of Study
AGENCY: Immigration and Naturalization Service, Justice.
Immigration and Naturalization Service
8 CFR Parts 214 and 248
[INS No. 2195-02]
RIN 1115-AG60
Requiring Change of Status From B to F-1 or M-1 Nonimmigrant
Prior to Pursuing a Course of Study
AGENCY: Immigration and Naturalization Service, Justice.
SUMMARY: This interim rule amends the Immigration and Naturalization Service (Service) regulations by eliminating the current provision allowing a B-1 or B-2 nonimmigrant visitor for business or pleasure to begin attending school without first obtaining approval of a change of nonimmigrant status request from the Service. This change will enhance the Service's ability to support the national security needs of the United States and is within the Service's authority under section 248 of the Immigration and Nationality Act (Act). The amendment will ensure that no B nonimmigrant is allowed to enroll in school until the alien has applied for, and the Service has approved, a change of nonimmigrant status to that of F-1 or M-1 nonimmigrant student.
DATES: Effective date: This interim rule is effective April 12, 2002.
DATES: Effective date: This interim rule is effective April 12, 2002.
What Is the Service Changing in This Interim Rule?
The Service is eliminating the ability of an alien admitted to the
United States as a B-1 or B-2 nonimmigrant to begin attending classes without first applying to the Service, and obtaining the Service's prior approval, for a change of nonimmigrant status to that of an F or M nonimmigrant student. This rule expressly prohibits a B nonimmigrant from enrolling in a course of study or taking other actions inconsistent with B nonimmigrant status unless and until the Service has approved the B nonimmigrant's change to an appropriate student nonimmigrant status.
Why Is the Service Instituting This Change?
The terrorist attacks of September 11, 2001, highlight the need of the Service to maintain greater control over the ability of an alien to change nonimmigrant status once the alien has been admitted to the United States. This interim rule will allow the Service to fully review any request from a B nonimmigrant to change nonimmigrant status to that of full-time student before allowing the alien to enroll in a Service-approved school. The elimination of the ability of a B nonimmigrant to begin classes before receiving the Service's approval of the change of nonimmigrant status is also consistent with the Act's requirement in section 101(a)(15)(B) that a B nonimmigrant not be a person coming to the United States for the purpose of study.
The Service is eliminating the ability of an alien admitted to the
United States as a B-1 or B-2 nonimmigrant to begin attending classes without first applying to the Service, and obtaining the Service's prior approval, for a change of nonimmigrant status to that of an F or M nonimmigrant student. This rule expressly prohibits a B nonimmigrant from enrolling in a course of study or taking other actions inconsistent with B nonimmigrant status unless and until the Service has approved the B nonimmigrant's change to an appropriate student nonimmigrant status.
Why Is the Service Instituting This Change?
The terrorist attacks of September 11, 2001, highlight the need of the Service to maintain greater control over the ability of an alien to change nonimmigrant status once the alien has been admitted to the United States. This interim rule will allow the Service to fully review any request from a B nonimmigrant to change nonimmigrant status to that of full-time student before allowing the alien to enroll in a Service-approved school. The elimination of the ability of a B nonimmigrant to begin classes before receiving the Service's approval of the change of nonimmigrant status is also consistent with the Act's requirement in section 101(a)(15)(B) that a B nonimmigrant not be a person coming to the United States for the purpose of study.
The Service's implementation of this rule as an interim rule, with provisions for post-promulgation public comments, is based on the "good cause'' exceptions found at 5 U.S.C. 553(b)(B) and (d)(3). The reason and necessity for the immediate promulgation of this rule are as follows: The rule is necessary to ensure the national security of the United States by eliminating the ability of a B nonimmigrant to enroll in school until the Service has approved a change of nonimmigrant status application filed by the prospective alien student. The previous rule allowing such enrollment prior to adjudication of the application was used by some of the September 11th terrorists to obtain flight training in the United States. Closing this loophole is essential to efforts to prevent this abuse from recurring.
Dated: April 9, 2002.
James W. Ziglar,
Commissioner, Immigration and Naturalization Service.
[FR Doc. 02-8926 Filed 4-9-02; 1:54 pm]
BILLING CODE 4410-10-P
James W. Ziglar,
Commissioner, Immigration and Naturalization Service.
[FR Doc. 02-8926 Filed 4-9-02; 1:54 pm]
BILLING CODE 4410-10-P
If anyone has questions, please ask me and I endeavor to get the answers from my contacts in Homeland Security.
Take Care,
Capt. Richard J. Gentil, Pres.
Naples Air Center, Inc.
[Note to the moderators, I have posted this on the threads in Wannabes and Private Flying.]
Thread Starter
The Oracle
Joined: Aug 2001
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From: Naples, Florida U.S.A.
A and C,
If you are not a U.S. citizen and do not have perminent residence status in the U.S.A. the answer is yes.
This is intented to stop all people on B-1 or B-2 nonimmigrant visitor for business or pleasure to begin attending school without first obtaining approval of a change of nonimmigrant status request from the Service. In this case flight training.
Take Care,
Capt. Richard J. Gentil, Pres.
Naples Air Center, Inc.
If you are not a U.S. citizen and do not have perminent residence status in the U.S.A. the answer is yes.
This is intented to stop all people on B-1 or B-2 nonimmigrant visitor for business or pleasure to begin attending school without first obtaining approval of a change of nonimmigrant status request from the Service. In this case flight training.
Take Care,
Capt. Richard J. Gentil, Pres.
Naples Air Center, Inc.
Joined: Apr 2000
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From: Airport
Capt. Gentil,
So you are telling me that there are school's approved to issue I-20 form for JAA PPL's? I was under the impression that an I-20 form can be issued for FAA training only and the school has to be an FAA agency i.e. part 141 school.
I am not aware of any school who can issue an I-20 form for JAA training? Does that mean that all the students arriving in USA for their JAA training are coming on a M1 visa which shouldnt be issued to begin with? They can be in the violation of Chapter 8 CFR part 217 and if INS were to find out they can be sent back home too?
Cheers,
Mayday
So you are telling me that there are school's approved to issue I-20 form for JAA PPL's? I was under the impression that an I-20 form can be issued for FAA training only and the school has to be an FAA agency i.e. part 141 school.
I am not aware of any school who can issue an I-20 form for JAA training? Does that mean that all the students arriving in USA for their JAA training are coming on a M1 visa which shouldnt be issued to begin with? They can be in the violation of Chapter 8 CFR part 217 and if INS were to find out they can be sent back home too?
Cheers,
Mayday