New Visa Requirements for Training in the U.S.A.
Thread Starter
The Oracle
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 2,902
Likes: 0
From: Naples, Florida U.S.A.
Mayday,
Any flight training that seeks a license or rating now requires a Visa. INS is being very specific on this. If the training is for any kind of certification a Visa is required.
There are J.A.A. FTO's in the U.S.A. that have Visa Authority.
Note the language in the rule
INS wants anyone coming to the U.S.A. for any kind of flight training to be checked out first. The way INS does this is by having the people coming be on a Visa. The INS has never made any distinctions on the types of training when talking bout the need for student visas. (I do not know where the idea that student visas only applied to FAA training comes from. It has been stated several times on PPRuNe and is false.)
Take Care,
Capt. Richard J. Gentil, Pres.
Naples Air Center, Inc.
Any flight training that seeks a license or rating now requires a Visa. INS is being very specific on this. If the training is for any kind of certification a Visa is required.
There are J.A.A. FTO's in the U.S.A. that have Visa Authority.
Note the language in the rule
The Service's implementation of this rule as an interim rule, with provisions for post-promulgation public comments, is based on the "good cause'' exceptions found at 5 U.S.C. 553(b)(B) and (d)(3). The reason and necessity for the immediate promulgation of this rule are as follows: The rule is necessary to ensure the national security of the United States by eliminating the ability of a B nonimmigrant to enroll in school until the Service has approved a change of nonimmigrant status application filed by the prospective alien student. The previous rule allowing such enrollment prior to adjudication of the application was used by some of the September 11th terrorists to obtain flight training in the United States. Closing this loophole is essential to efforts to prevent this abuse from recurring.
Take Care,
Capt. Richard J. Gentil, Pres.
Naples Air Center, Inc.
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 1,981
Likes: 0
From: He's on the limb to nowhere
Any flight training that seeks a license or rating now requires a Visa. INS is being very specific on this. If the training is for any kind of certification a Visa is required.
Richard,
Would you cite this very specific regulation?
The rule you cite is not specific on flight training, licences or ratings at all. It explains that terrorists unilaterally changed their immigration status, then happened to enroll in flight schools, as the reason to plug the loophole - but to my reading nothing more.
Now you have categorically stated the above, you really need to cite the document that states you need a visa to obtain a licence or rating.
I agree with Mayday. You are in danger of being deported and banned for a long time if you enter the US using a visa that is not appropriate to your purpose of visit. Do you think these JAA schools are using their FAR 141 approval to obtain INS approval to issue I-20?
Cheers
Richard,
Would you cite this very specific regulation?
The rule you cite is not specific on flight training, licences or ratings at all. It explains that terrorists unilaterally changed their immigration status, then happened to enroll in flight schools, as the reason to plug the loophole - but to my reading nothing more.
Now you have categorically stated the above, you really need to cite the document that states you need a visa to obtain a licence or rating.
I agree with Mayday. You are in danger of being deported and banned for a long time if you enter the US using a visa that is not appropriate to your purpose of visit. Do you think these JAA schools are using their FAR 141 approval to obtain INS approval to issue I-20?
Cheers
Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 13
Likes: 0
From: Airport
Captain Gentil,
You mentioned that there are FTO's approved to issue I20 forms? So you are telling me that those FTO's were approved by INS to issue I-20 forms solely on the basis of their UK FTO approval? Or did they use their FAA Part 141 air agency approval to get the I-20 authorisation?
When your school issue's an I-20 form for JAA PPL, do you just write "flight training", "FAA PPL" or "JAA PPL" on the I-20 form?
I was also reading the website and it does mentions that this restriction is for B1 B2 visa. Most EU citizens enter USA under visa waiver and it is not part of B1 B2!
I understand from your statement that if I were to come to visit Mickey Mouse and whilst I was strolling the streets in Orlando and saw a brochure from a flight school, I legally cannot go and train there? How is INS going to control people who just walk in? Since your school is approved, if a EU citizen walks in and ask for flight instruction (for arguement sake, lets just say one hour only) what would you do?
I personally think it is more complicated then it seems. What if before the student arrive in the USA, the school has their background check done by FBI. Wouldn't that be good enough reason for INS to believe that the potential student is not a potential terrorist? After all the INS wants to stop the terrorists from coming to USA, right?
My apologies for all the typos and other mistakes. Its late and past my bed time. Will continue more later.
Cheerio,
Mayday
PS: And you said time building is ok but you also quoted that "Any flight training that seeks a licence or rating now requires a visa"? Now that's a contradiction in itself. I am assuming when the students arrive for time building they are required to convert their licence to FAA licence (seeking licence!). They also require a check out (seeking training as the FI is logging the time as dual given!) before they can go solo. Also most of the time builders are time building towards their CPL requirements. How is this OK and PPL training is not?
You mentioned that there are FTO's approved to issue I20 forms? So you are telling me that those FTO's were approved by INS to issue I-20 forms solely on the basis of their UK FTO approval? Or did they use their FAA Part 141 air agency approval to get the I-20 authorisation?
When your school issue's an I-20 form for JAA PPL, do you just write "flight training", "FAA PPL" or "JAA PPL" on the I-20 form?
I was also reading the website and it does mentions that this restriction is for B1 B2 visa. Most EU citizens enter USA under visa waiver and it is not part of B1 B2!
I understand from your statement that if I were to come to visit Mickey Mouse and whilst I was strolling the streets in Orlando and saw a brochure from a flight school, I legally cannot go and train there? How is INS going to control people who just walk in? Since your school is approved, if a EU citizen walks in and ask for flight instruction (for arguement sake, lets just say one hour only) what would you do?
I personally think it is more complicated then it seems. What if before the student arrive in the USA, the school has their background check done by FBI. Wouldn't that be good enough reason for INS to believe that the potential student is not a potential terrorist? After all the INS wants to stop the terrorists from coming to USA, right?
My apologies for all the typos and other mistakes. Its late and past my bed time. Will continue more later.
Cheerio,
Mayday
PS: And you said time building is ok but you also quoted that "Any flight training that seeks a licence or rating now requires a visa"? Now that's a contradiction in itself. I am assuming when the students arrive for time building they are required to convert their licence to FAA licence (seeking licence!). They also require a check out (seeking training as the FI is logging the time as dual given!) before they can go solo. Also most of the time builders are time building towards their CPL requirements. How is this OK and PPL training is not?
Thread Starter
The Oracle
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 2,902
Likes: 0
From: Naples, Florida U.S.A.
slim_slag,
We are chasing each other over the two threads. The Homeland Security officers were very specific about flight training since it is what applies to us and it is what the September 11th Terrorists used to attack the U.S.A.
Any schools which train non U.S. Citizens for any Rating or License will have to have visa authority and students with student Visas. Any training that is in order to obtain a certification from any agency (Does not have to be U.S.) falls under this ruling. The Officers from Homeland Security were very specific on this.
Going back to your post on the other thread, of you were to train students in your own airplane for a F.A.A. Part 61 Private Pilot's License you will need to have Visa Authority and your non U.S. Student a student Visa.
Now one of the requirements in the U.S.A. for gaining M-1 Visa Authority is being a certified school. In order to be a certified school in the U.S.A. the School will have to be a Part 141 School. In order to gain J-1 Visa Authority you will need to be an accredited school by an accrediting agency.
If you do not want to have Visa Authority, you will still be able to teach J.A.A. in the U.S.A. and be a FTO, but you will only be able to train U.S. Citizens.
The rule you are looking for is the one I quoted. The Title says a lot:
The officers from Homeland Security defined course of study as any training with the goal of a license, rating, certification.
I know that makes you wonder, "What about a BFR?" There was discussion on the counting as requiring a Visa, but that has not been addressed yet and from what I understand there are people in INS opposing that interpretation.
The Officers did state that a checkout in an aircraft for insurance purposes prior to being able to rent an aircraft is ok.
The rule that I quote is broad and encompasses all types of training but the primary reason it was written was due to September 11th and specifically for flight training.
I hope this answers your question,
Capt. Richard J. Gentil, Pres.
Naples Air Center, Inc.
We are chasing each other over the two threads. The Homeland Security officers were very specific about flight training since it is what applies to us and it is what the September 11th Terrorists used to attack the U.S.A.
Any schools which train non U.S. Citizens for any Rating or License will have to have visa authority and students with student Visas. Any training that is in order to obtain a certification from any agency (Does not have to be U.S.) falls under this ruling. The Officers from Homeland Security were very specific on this.
Going back to your post on the other thread, of you were to train students in your own airplane for a F.A.A. Part 61 Private Pilot's License you will need to have Visa Authority and your non U.S. Student a student Visa.
Now one of the requirements in the U.S.A. for gaining M-1 Visa Authority is being a certified school. In order to be a certified school in the U.S.A. the School will have to be a Part 141 School. In order to gain J-1 Visa Authority you will need to be an accredited school by an accrediting agency.
If you do not want to have Visa Authority, you will still be able to teach J.A.A. in the U.S.A. and be a FTO, but you will only be able to train U.S. Citizens.
The rule you are looking for is the one I quoted. The Title says a lot:
Requiring Change of Status From B to F-1 or M-1 Nonimmigrant Prior to Pursuing a Course of Study
I know that makes you wonder, "What about a BFR?" There was discussion on the counting as requiring a Visa, but that has not been addressed yet and from what I understand there are people in INS opposing that interpretation.
The Officers did state that a checkout in an aircraft for insurance purposes prior to being able to rent an aircraft is ok.
The rule that I quote is broad and encompasses all types of training but the primary reason it was written was due to September 11th and specifically for flight training.
I hope this answers your question,
Capt. Richard J. Gentil, Pres.
Naples Air Center, Inc.
Thread Starter
The Oracle
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 2,902
Likes: 0
From: Naples, Florida U.S.A.
Mayday1215,
I was answering slim_slag when you posted so I did not see it till now. I believe I answered most of your questions in my response to slim_slag.
You gave an example of going to Disney, seeing a flyer and now wanting to go learn to fly. The person would have to apply for a change of status if they are on a Tourist Visa and wait for the change of status to be granted prior to commencing training. This rule was written with that in mind. If you are on a Visa Waiver, you cannot train since you are not allowed to change your status on the Visa Waiver Program.
Visa Waiver Program (VWP)
Here are two parts of the rule "Requiring Change of Status From B to F-1 or M-1 Nonimmigrant "I did not previously quote:
As for your question:
Will this be good enough? NO To train it must be with an F-1, M-1, or J-1.
I hope this answers your questions,
Capt. Richard J. Gentil, Pres.
Naples Air Center, Inc.
I was answering slim_slag when you posted so I did not see it till now. I believe I answered most of your questions in my response to slim_slag.
You gave an example of going to Disney, seeing a flyer and now wanting to go learn to fly. The person would have to apply for a change of status if they are on a Tourist Visa and wait for the change of status to be granted prior to commencing training. This rule was written with that in mind. If you are on a Visa Waiver, you cannot train since you are not allowed to change your status on the Visa Waiver Program.
Visa Waiver Program (VWP)
What Are the Disadvantages of Using the VWP?
If the INS admits you under the VWP, you may not change or extend your nonimmigrant status. If the INS denies your admission, you have no right to administrative or judicial review, except as noted above. Likewise, if you are found to have violated the terms of your admission, you also forfeit the right to contest a removal order. Therefore, before using the VWP, you should carefully consider your options.
If the INS admits you under the VWP, you may not change or extend your nonimmigrant status. If the INS denies your admission, you have no right to administrative or judicial review, except as noted above. Likewise, if you are found to have violated the terms of your admission, you also forfeit the right to contest a removal order. Therefore, before using the VWP, you should carefully consider your options.
Why Is This Change Limited to B Nonimmigrants?
In the process of drafting this rule, the Service considered making its requirements (i.e., that nonimmigrants obtain a student visa before being able to take courses) apply to anyone in the United States not currently in student status. Such a requirement would be broader than the rule as presently drafted, which applies just to nonimmigrants in B-1 or B-2 visitor status.
B nonimmigrants generally enter the United States for purposes of tourism or for a business trip. Pursuing a course of study is inconsistent with these purposes, and thus inconsistent with B status. However, pursuit of studies generally is consistent with most other nonimmigrant statuses, and thus such a broader rule could have unintended and overly burdensome consequences for such nonimmigrants. For some, such a J-1 au pair or an H-3 trainee, the courses might be an integral part of the program for which they obtained their status. For many dependent spouses, such as H-4s, derivatives of A or G diplomats, or NAFTA TN-2s, studies may be their only permissible pursuit while accompanying their spouse who is working in the United States. Dependent children are, in fact, expected to attend school. Even some principals in nonimmigrant status (e.g., H-1Bs, L-1s) may take courses incident to status to enhance their professional development. Requiring that these individuals change to F-1 or M-1 status in order to pursue studies would eliminate their ability to attend part-time, since by statute F-1s and M-1s must be pursuing a full course of study and since a nonimmigrant is prohibited from holding more than one nonimmigrant status while in the United States.
In the process of drafting this rule, the Service considered making its requirements (i.e., that nonimmigrants obtain a student visa before being able to take courses) apply to anyone in the United States not currently in student status. Such a requirement would be broader than the rule as presently drafted, which applies just to nonimmigrants in B-1 or B-2 visitor status.
B nonimmigrants generally enter the United States for purposes of tourism or for a business trip. Pursuing a course of study is inconsistent with these purposes, and thus inconsistent with B status. However, pursuit of studies generally is consistent with most other nonimmigrant statuses, and thus such a broader rule could have unintended and overly burdensome consequences for such nonimmigrants. For some, such a J-1 au pair or an H-3 trainee, the courses might be an integral part of the program for which they obtained their status. For many dependent spouses, such as H-4s, derivatives of A or G diplomats, or NAFTA TN-2s, studies may be their only permissible pursuit while accompanying their spouse who is working in the United States. Dependent children are, in fact, expected to attend school. Even some principals in nonimmigrant status (e.g., H-1Bs, L-1s) may take courses incident to status to enhance their professional development. Requiring that these individuals change to F-1 or M-1 status in order to pursue studies would eliminate their ability to attend part-time, since by statute F-1s and M-1s must be pursuing a full course of study and since a nonimmigrant is prohibited from holding more than one nonimmigrant status while in the United States.
Sec. 214.2 Special requirements for admission, extension and maintenance of status.
* * * * *
(b) * * *
(6) [Reserved]
(7) Enrollment in a course of study prohibited. An alien who is
admitted as, or changes status to, a B-1 or B-2
[[Page 18064]]
nonimmigrant on or after April 12, 2002, or who files a request to
extend the period of authorized stay in B-1 or B-2 nonimmigrant status on or after such date, violates the conditions of his or her B-1 or B-2 status if the alien enrolls in a course of study. Such an alien who desires to enroll in a course of study must either obtain an F-1 or M-1 nonimmigrant visa from a consular officer abroad and seek readmission to the United States, or apply for and obtain a change of status under section 248 of the Act and 8 CFR part 248. The alien may not enroll in the course of study until the Service has admitted the alien as an F-1 or M-1 nonimmigrant or has approved the alien's application under part 248 of this chapter and changed the alien's status to that of an F-1 or M-1 nonimmigrant.
* * * * *
(b) * * *
(6) [Reserved]
(7) Enrollment in a course of study prohibited. An alien who is
admitted as, or changes status to, a B-1 or B-2
[[Page 18064]]
nonimmigrant on or after April 12, 2002, or who files a request to
extend the period of authorized stay in B-1 or B-2 nonimmigrant status on or after such date, violates the conditions of his or her B-1 or B-2 status if the alien enrolls in a course of study. Such an alien who desires to enroll in a course of study must either obtain an F-1 or M-1 nonimmigrant visa from a consular officer abroad and seek readmission to the United States, or apply for and obtain a change of status under section 248 of the Act and 8 CFR part 248. The alien may not enroll in the course of study until the Service has admitted the alien as an F-1 or M-1 nonimmigrant or has approved the alien's application under part 248 of this chapter and changed the alien's status to that of an F-1 or M-1 nonimmigrant.
I personally think it is more complicated then it seems. What if before the student arrive in the USA, the school has their background check done by FBI. Wouldn't that be good enough reason for INS to believe that the potential student is not a potential terrorist? After all the INS wants to stop the terrorists from coming to USA, right?
I hope this answers your questions,
Capt. Richard J. Gentil, Pres.
Naples Air Center, Inc.
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 43
Likes: 0
From: europe
and what about a US citizen trying to kill US citizen like Mac Veigh who bombed the Oklahoma builiding in 1994 (I guess!).
What about these guys who sent letters with Antrax?
what about these teenagers who shot students in Colorado.
Com'on guys, thats not serious.The INS can do what they want, it will not stop somebody to crash on a bulding.US citizen or not.
INS is going to be split in 2 Gov agencies.THe INS is dead, in 2 years they will have to leave their office, oust, weg, gone, bye bye!!!...they did nothing good, for the US citizen and for foreigners, do you really think they are going to change?, it's all the system which is corrupted, slow,...
What about these guys who sent letters with Antrax?
what about these teenagers who shot students in Colorado.
Com'on guys, thats not serious.The INS can do what they want, it will not stop somebody to crash on a bulding.US citizen or not.
INS is going to be split in 2 Gov agencies.THe INS is dead, in 2 years they will have to leave their office, oust, weg, gone, bye bye!!!...they did nothing good, for the US citizen and for foreigners, do you really think they are going to change?, it's all the system which is corrupted, slow,...
Joined: May 1999
Aviation Qualifications: ATP+Mil
Posts: 27,395
Likes: 857
From: Quite near 'An aerodrome somewhere in England'
Presumably someone with an ICAO PPL can use those licence privileges in the US subject to local approval - and thus 'build hours' as they are not seeking to obtain any specific licence or rating?
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 1,981
Likes: 0
From: He's on the limb to nowhere
Richard
The officers from Homeland Security defined course of study as any training with the goal of a license, rating, certification.
That's important to have defined. I still call it hearsay
If you do not want to have Visa Authority, you will still be able to teach J.A.A. in the U.S.A. and be a FTO, but you will only be able to train U.S. Citizens.
This is going to be a nightmare to administer, how do I know whether somebody is American or not?
I'll ask around today and find out if anybody round here (Arizona) has heard anything. If you say this rule was introduced in April then a lot of companies are in breach of the law.
Personally I think we will all eventually need a background check before we can fly an airplane here. They are just working out how to do it and get it approved by the special interest groups.
Thank's for your answers.
BEagle
Presumably someone with an ICAO PPL can use those licence privileges in the US subject to local approval - and thus 'build hours' as they are not seeking to obtain any specific licence or rating?
There is an administrative procedure where you present your ICAO PPL to the local FAA office, and you receive on the spot and free of charge an FAA PP-ASEL (Private Pilot-Air Single Engine Land) temporary airmans certificate. Your permanent cornflake packet certificate comes in the post. Your temporary certificate is well recognised and accepted everywhere.
Nobody here would recognise or accept a foreign licence - this is America, the rest of the world does not exist
I suspect Mayday was asking whether this administrative process was equivalent to gaining a licence/rating/certificate (which it is), but there is no training involved so I don't see why you should need a visa (given the hearsay definition quoted above)
The officers from Homeland Security defined course of study as any training with the goal of a license, rating, certification.
That's important to have defined. I still call it hearsay
If you do not want to have Visa Authority, you will still be able to teach J.A.A. in the U.S.A. and be a FTO, but you will only be able to train U.S. Citizens.
This is going to be a nightmare to administer, how do I know whether somebody is American or not?
I'll ask around today and find out if anybody round here (Arizona) has heard anything. If you say this rule was introduced in April then a lot of companies are in breach of the law.
Personally I think we will all eventually need a background check before we can fly an airplane here. They are just working out how to do it and get it approved by the special interest groups.
Thank's for your answers.
BEagle
Presumably someone with an ICAO PPL can use those licence privileges in the US subject to local approval - and thus 'build hours' as they are not seeking to obtain any specific licence or rating?
There is an administrative procedure where you present your ICAO PPL to the local FAA office, and you receive on the spot and free of charge an FAA PP-ASEL (Private Pilot-Air Single Engine Land) temporary airmans certificate. Your permanent cornflake packet certificate comes in the post. Your temporary certificate is well recognised and accepted everywhere.
Nobody here would recognise or accept a foreign licence - this is America, the rest of the world does not exist
I suspect Mayday was asking whether this administrative process was equivalent to gaining a licence/rating/certificate (which it is), but there is no training involved so I don't see why you should need a visa (given the hearsay definition quoted above
)
Props are for boats!
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 994
Likes: 0
From: An Asian Hub
Ok Guys
What about pilots who are getting a jet rating ie. FAA ATP qualified, going to places like Jet Tech in Pheonix and also with Continental. Are these companies now advertising for "Visad " Pilots only.
I know for a fact that alot of airlines around the world encourage their new employees to pay for their initial ratings, and usually this means the US. This will probably mean alot less income in some Training Departments.
I agree with Mutt, this will curb GA pilots looking for a holiday etc. as well.
What about pilots who are getting a jet rating ie. FAA ATP qualified, going to places like Jet Tech in Pheonix and also with Continental. Are these companies now advertising for "Visad " Pilots only.
I know for a fact that alot of airlines around the world encourage their new employees to pay for their initial ratings, and usually this means the US. This will probably mean alot less income in some Training Departments.
I agree with Mutt, this will curb GA pilots looking for a holiday etc. as well.
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 43
Likes: 0
From: europe
What about a pilot with a lot of money (like me), I mean a LOT of money and ready to give it to a US school...
with money, you do what you want in the States.Terrorists have money(a LOT of money) and it will not stop the US gov. to let them enter.
with money, you do what you want in the States.Terrorists have money(a LOT of money) and it will not stop the US gov. to let them enter.
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 1
Likes: 0
From: dublin
Listen to the Capt. from Naples,guys!I am going to Florida next week to do a FI course and I had to get a student visa from the American Embassy here in Dublin before I go.Any school that does not inform you of this requirement-stay well clear!!I also had to submit to an interview before they issuied the visa.They have become more than a little paranoid since 9/11,which you cant blame them for.Spend your money wisely,guys,we have all wasted too much already on dodgy schools and unprofessional practices.Good luck!!!
Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 13
Likes: 0
From: Airport
1234,
I am assuming that you are going to EFT for your FI course. There are only two FTO's in america approved to do FI course and neither one of them have visa approval.
EFT works with AriBen Aviator and your I-20 form is issued by AriBen aviator. I bet if you were to tell the immigration officer that you are going to EFT for training and your I-20 says AriBen, they will send you back to Ireland too. If you do not believe me go to www.ins.gov and search for Chapter 8 CFR part 217 A (iii)
Now you tell me who is more unprofessional (as you mentioned unprofessional and dodgy practices)?
Anyway, good luck with your FI course. You are in good hands, Trevor is an excellent instructor.
Mayday
I am assuming that you are going to EFT for your FI course. There are only two FTO's in america approved to do FI course and neither one of them have visa approval.
EFT works with AriBen Aviator and your I-20 form is issued by AriBen aviator. I bet if you were to tell the immigration officer that you are going to EFT for training and your I-20 says AriBen, they will send you back to Ireland too. If you do not believe me go to www.ins.gov and search for Chapter 8 CFR part 217 A (iii)
Now you tell me who is more unprofessional (as you mentioned unprofessional and dodgy practices)?
Anyway, good luck with your FI course. You are in good hands, Trevor is an excellent instructor.
Mayday
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 1,981
Likes: 0
From: He's on the limb to nowhere
I've found some "hard" info to back up what Richard Gentil has been saying.
Flight Training Candidate Checks Program should make interesting reading for prospective students and CFIs.
Note the limited number of schools who are included in the authorised flight training centres. Some of your favourite schools are not in there!!!
Personally I think this is because this scheme is not yet in place, they are moving towards it, this web site is a taste of things to come. I went to two largish flight schools today and they have heard nothing about changes to how they should handle foreign students. They will still take you off the street, take your money off you and train you, and not give a damn about your nationality or immigration status. That is because the rules have not yet been formally changed. The only advice they have had off the authorities is to report anything suspicious. If you are a typical Northern European type they will not have their suspicions raised. Sorry to say it but it's a fact.
I'd get legal advice if you are at all worried. This is not a place to obtain authorative legal advice. If anybody wants to pay $300 then this guy Shusterman is extremely well regarded. He is nothing to do with me, my brother who is also an US immigration attorney (and who tells me most of what I say - hearsay of course) says this guy is one of the best around.
Note in the FAQs
So reading between the lines, its coming........
sheep guts
This might be of interest to you - a document refering to specific legislation.
Training in aircraft of more that 12500 lbs
Flight Training Candidate Checks Program should make interesting reading for prospective students and CFIs.
Note the limited number of schools who are included in the authorised flight training centres. Some of your favourite schools are not in there!!!
Personally I think this is because this scheme is not yet in place, they are moving towards it, this web site is a taste of things to come. I went to two largish flight schools today and they have heard nothing about changes to how they should handle foreign students. They will still take you off the street, take your money off you and train you, and not give a damn about your nationality or immigration status. That is because the rules have not yet been formally changed. The only advice they have had off the authorities is to report anything suspicious. If you are a typical Northern European type they will not have their suspicions raised. Sorry to say it but it's a fact.
I'd get legal advice if you are at all worried. This is not a place to obtain authorative legal advice. If anybody wants to pay $300 then this guy Shusterman is extremely well regarded. He is nothing to do with me, my brother who is also an US immigration attorney (and who tells me most of what I say - hearsay of course) says this guy is one of the best around.
Note in the FAQs
At this time,US citizens, nationals, and certain aliens are not required to use this program
sheep guts
This might be of interest to you - a document refering to specific legislation.
Training in aircraft of more that 12500 lbs
Last edited by slim_slag; 30th June 2002 at 02:28.
Joined: Sep 1999
Posts: 5,552
Likes: 25
From: ME
Slim_Slag,
The first link that you provided is a secure server, could you please give me a gist of what it says.
The second one was extremely interesting, but its slightly OTT and will result in an immense loss of earnings to US based flight training establishments.
Mutt.
The first link that you provided is a secure server, could you please give me a gist of what it says.
The second one was extremely interesting, but its slightly OTT and will result in an immense loss of earnings to US based flight training establishments.
Mutt.
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 1,981
Likes: 0
From: He's on the limb to nowhere
mutt
The first link that you provided is a secure server, could you please give me a gist of what it says.
It's a US government web site which allows individuals to register and provide identifying information so they can be 'checked out' by the US Department of Justice prior to flight training. There is a lot of stuff on there, I'd recommend you find a browser which allows you to look at secure pages, or maybe the moderators will copy and paste all the pages (esp the FAQ), but the home page starts..
Anyway, if you look at the 'over 12500lb' regulation I cited, I think it makes reference to development of a web interface for the neccesary approval to train on larger machines.
I suspect this beta web site is for that purpose. If/when laws/regulations are enacted which require checks to be made on pilots requesting training on airplanes of <12500lbs, I assume this web site would be used.
I have yet to find any US legislation requiring checks to be made on individuals who want to train on airplanes of less than 12500 lbs. Michigan has passed such a law, but that's a mere state. It is interesting to me at least, that the US Congress passed a law requiring checks to be made on training programs on airplanes , but specifically said it was for airplanes of over 12500lbs. If there is an intent to check up the trainee C172 pilot, then it doesn't appear to come from the US Congress Maybe it will later, but for now it's just all rumour, IMO.
The second one was extremely interesting, but its slightly OTT and will result in an immense loss of earnings to US based flight training establishments.
My opinion is that it isn't OTT when you remember what happened on 11th September. The USA is rife with background checks, usually for far less significant jobs than an airline pilot, so to background check somebody to learn to fly a 737 on a sim is reasonable, IMO.
I also don't think there will be an immense loss of earnings for any type of flight school. The USA is the epitomy of efficiency when it comes to making money. You can assume that the current administration, although they are concerned about people learning to fly small planes, are more concerned about the ability of a flight school to make a buck so they can tax it .
The US government will not prevent the influx of foreign money, in fact the web site shows they are making it easy for people to be approved. At the end of the day, even with this added inconvenience, people will look at the pros and cons, and still come in droves to America from Europe to learn to fly.
The first link that you provided is a secure server, could you please give me a gist of what it says.
It's a US government web site which allows individuals to register and provide identifying information so they can be 'checked out' by the US Department of Justice prior to flight training. There is a lot of stuff on there, I'd recommend you find a browser which allows you to look at secure pages, or maybe the moderators will copy and paste all the pages (esp the FAQ), but the home page starts..
Under new US legislation, foreign students wanting to attend a US flight training program must fill out a Department of Justice Flight Training Candidate Checks Program form before they will be allowed to begin instruction. In order to complete this process and begin your training, you must complete all of the following steps:
I suspect this beta web site is for that purpose. If/when laws/regulations are enacted which require checks to be made on pilots requesting training on airplanes of <12500lbs, I assume this web site would be used.
I have yet to find any US legislation requiring checks to be made on individuals who want to train on airplanes of less than 12500 lbs. Michigan has passed such a law, but that's a mere state. It is interesting to me at least, that the US Congress passed a law requiring checks to be made on training programs on airplanes , but specifically said it was for airplanes of over 12500lbs. If there is an intent to check up the trainee C172 pilot, then it doesn't appear to come from the US Congress
Maybe it will later, but for now it's just all rumour, IMO.The second one was extremely interesting, but its slightly OTT and will result in an immense loss of earnings to US based flight training establishments.
My opinion is that it isn't OTT when you remember what happened on 11th September. The USA is rife with background checks, usually for far less significant jobs than an airline pilot, so to background check somebody to learn to fly a 737 on a sim is reasonable, IMO.
I also don't think there will be an immense loss of earnings for any type of flight school. The USA is the epitomy of efficiency when it comes to making money. You can assume that the current administration, although they are concerned about people learning to fly small planes, are more concerned about the ability of a flight school to make a buck so they can tax it
. The US government will not prevent the influx of foreign money, in fact the web site shows they are making it easy for people to be approved. At the end of the day, even with this added inconvenience, people will look at the pros and cons, and still come in droves to America from Europe to learn to fly.
Last edited by slim_slag; 30th June 2002 at 07:36.
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 97
Likes: 0
From: Seat 0B
Doing a 12500lb/5700kg type in the US ... think again!?!
Okay ... I'm just adding a little "food for thought" here based on personal experience in the last month. I'm not saying I'm right, just what has happened to me.
Sheep Guts & mutt - as the situation currently stands you're pretty much on the mark. Can't vouch for school advertising, but those foreign pilots seeking an inital 12500lb/5700kg rating to satisfy job pre-requisites are going to have to go through the wringer if they wish to do it in the US. And yes, this will equate to less candidates for some schools and even less candidates for those who lack a visa authority, given NAC's posts on visas.
Slim - it ain't coming mate, it's already here buddy.
The list of authorised training centres has been growing steadily since the Department of Justice (DOJ) Flight Training Candidate Checks Program web-application system went online for public comment. I've been visiting it almost daily to monitor changes and the lists appear to be getting a little longer each time - particularly TX. It appears to still be in "public comment" mode, ie I don't believe they are taking any real notice of the data being submitted at this stage - other details I'll mention in a tick support this notion.
Bits of the new "scheme" (apt description I s'pose) are in effect with respect to heavy jet type training and the new rules 28 CFR PART 105 ARE IN EFFECT as of 14 JUL 02 (sorry to bust ya balls). I am not vouching for GA here - different ball game. Operators and training providers I have spoken to ARE aware of the new rules (one was a bit slow on the uptake) and ARE adhering to them - the penalties can be severe. Oddly enough depending on who you speak to (DOJ/FAA/FBI) THEY all don't necessarily know what is going on. I will grant you though, while the organisations I've spoken to are aware of the new rules, they are not 100% sure how to handle foreign pilots either. (You should have seen where I was on the day before the new rules went into effect - b****y near pandemonium). These organisations will not take your money and in fact won't even give you the time of day now - simply because ... they can't (don't care who you are or where you come from - they're just not allowed).
The "certain aliens" referred to here simply put are:[list=1][*]Foreign nationals who are current and qualified as pilot in command, second in command, or flight engineer with respective certificates with ratings recognized by the United States for aircraft with a maximum certificated takeoff weight of 12,500 pounds or more, or who are currently employed by U.S. air carriers as pilots on aircraft with a maximum certificated takeoff weight of 12,500 pounds or more.[*]Military pilots or other crew members who are being provided training pursuant to a contract awarded by a component of the Department of Defense or the U.S. Coast Guard.[*]Military or law enforcement personnel who must receive training on a particular aircraft given by the United States to a foreign government pursuant to a draw-down authorized by the President. [*]Commercial, governmental, corporate, or military pilots of aircraft with a maximum certificated takeoff weight of 12,500 pounds or more who must receive familiarization training on a particular aircraft in order to transport it to the purchaser or recipient, provided that the training provided is limited to familiarization.[/list=1]
Even so, everyone (except US citizen/Naitionals) going for an initial heavy jet type (or recurrency) will require a clearance from the Attorney General AND a thorough FBI check,possibly including a full set of prints (always did enjoy finger painting...). All these people I've just referred to are not exempt from the rules, they just get preferential treatment in respect to getting/not getting a DoJ clearance. If you are not in any of these categories then, I am afraid from painful experience, you're in limbo.
I find it mildly amusing that the DoJ/FAA/FTTTF have recognised that this may place some economic burden upon organisations (I think their example was in respect to full-flight sim operators) and have "relaxed the rules a little bit" .... $%@*$%#&? Wonder what their original proposal was??? Can't half tell they were racing to get this new rule out though - the organisation I was at got notification of it 3 days before it went into effect. According to officials it was too important to go through the 60 day public comment phase and was implemented ASAP. If they had gone through the comment period I'd be 737 rated now and not posting here. no I'm 
Okay then, for those of us who are not a part of the favoured few (ie, not type rated) well ... you wait ... and wait ... and wait. How long I don't know, I'm currently trying to find out. 28 CFR Part 105.13 has to be passed before non-type rated aliens (gotta love that term) can even get a look in, and to adequately fulfil the FBI check from a foreign country will be onerous at best as the proposed (105.13) rule currently stands. And may I suggest that if you are in this category and you are undertaking training without a clearance then a) you're gamer than I am (and I'm pretty keen) and b) you and your provider will be in deep s**t. (I'd put money on deportation and revocation of right to enter the US for the individual).
For those of you who love reading government documents here is the link for 28 CFR Part 105 to which I have been referring. It is a Adobe Acrobat file and a tad over 3Mb in size (15 pages) - better put on a pot of coffee for this one.
Justice Department Requires Background Checks for U.S. Flight Training
If you can't be bothered downloading this one or can't be b-uh-g-ered reading it I have a short version I can email on request. It doesn't paint the full story but the basics are there.
This is why I don't believe the online application system is fully active yet - besides I have two applications in the system and neither organisation has received notification yet.
Ahh... US patriotism alive and well (except for the 9th Circuit Court of Appeals in San Fran trying to rule the Pledge of Allegiance as un-constitutional...
)
(Sorry Slim - you had replied while I was replying - touche!
)
(Aww c'mon Danny ... fairgo mate ... surely b-ugg-err-d is okay?
)
Sheep Guts & mutt - as the situation currently stands you're pretty much on the mark. Can't vouch for school advertising, but those foreign pilots seeking an inital 12500lb/5700kg rating to satisfy job pre-requisites are going to have to go through the wringer if they wish to do it in the US. And yes, this will equate to less candidates for some schools and even less candidates for those who lack a visa authority, given NAC's posts on visas.
Slim - it ain't coming mate, it's already here buddy.
On June 14, the Justice Department issued a rule that requires background checks for certain non-U.S. persons seeking flight training in the U.S. on aircraft weighing 12,500 pounds or more. In the future, those affected by the rule will be able to submit information online to obtain clearance.
Bits of the new "scheme" (apt description I s'pose) are in effect with respect to heavy jet type training and the new rules 28 CFR PART 105 ARE IN EFFECT as of 14 JUL 02 (sorry to bust ya balls). I am not vouching for GA here - different ball game. Operators and training providers I have spoken to ARE aware of the new rules (one was a bit slow on the uptake) and ARE adhering to them - the penalties can be severe. Oddly enough depending on who you speak to (DOJ/FAA/FBI) THEY all don't necessarily know what is going on. I will grant you though, while the organisations I've spoken to are aware of the new rules, they are not 100% sure how to handle foreign pilots either. (You should have seen where I was on the day before the new rules went into effect - b****y near pandemonium). These organisations will not take your money and in fact won't even give you the time of day now - simply because ... they can't (don't care who you are or where you come from - they're just not allowed).
At this time,US citizens, nationals, and certain aliens are not required to use this program
Even so, everyone (except US citizen/Naitionals) going for an initial heavy jet type (or recurrency) will require a clearance from the Attorney General AND a thorough FBI check,possibly including a full set of prints (always did enjoy finger painting...). All these people I've just referred to are not exempt from the rules, they just get preferential treatment in respect to getting/not getting a DoJ clearance. If you are not in any of these categories then, I am afraid from painful experience, you're in limbo.
I find it mildly amusing that the DoJ/FAA/FTTTF have recognised that this may place some economic burden upon organisations (I think their example was in respect to full-flight sim operators) and have "relaxed the rules a little bit" .... $%@*$%#&? Wonder what their original proposal was??? Can't half tell they were racing to get this new rule out though - the organisation I was at got notification of it 3 days before it went into effect. According to officials it was too important to go through the 60 day public comment phase and was implemented ASAP. If they had gone through the comment period I'd be 737 rated now and not posting here.
no I'm Okay then, for those of us who are not a part of the favoured few (ie, not type rated) well ... you wait ... and wait ... and wait. How long I don't know, I'm currently trying to find out. 28 CFR Part 105.13 has to be passed before non-type rated aliens (gotta love that term) can even get a look in, and to adequately fulfil the FBI check from a foreign country will be onerous at best as the proposed (105.13) rule currently stands. And may I suggest that if you are in this category and you are undertaking training without a clearance then a) you're gamer than I am (and I'm pretty keen) and b) you and your provider will be in deep s**t. (I'd put money on deportation and revocation of right to enter the US for the individual).
For those of you who love reading government documents here is the link for 28 CFR Part 105 to which I have been referring. It is a Adobe Acrobat file and a tad over 3Mb in size (15 pages) - better put on a pot of coffee for this one.
Justice Department Requires Background Checks for U.S. Flight Training
If you can't be bothered downloading this one or can't be b-uh-g-ered reading it I have a short version I can email on request. It doesn't paint the full story but the basics are there.
Prospective candidates who do not meet the criteria outlined in the expedited processing categories cannot register for flight training at this time. FSDOs and flight training providers, as well as the general public, will be notified when the system is available for widespread use.
This is why I don't believe the online application system is fully active yet - besides I have two applications in the system and neither organisation has received notification yet.
While these instructions may seem extensive, the FTTTF is confident that this process will not be time consuming or overly burdensome. In light of the events suffered on and following September 11, 2001 by the aviation industry and the nation as a whole, we must all be diligent in doing our part to protect our aviation and national security. Your continued cooperation and assistance in this program represents an invaluable service to Americans all over the US, as well as to visitors who travel within our borders.
Ahh... US patriotism alive and well (except for the 9th Circuit Court of Appeals in San Fran trying to rule the Pledge of Allegiance as un-constitutional...
)(Sorry Slim - you had replied while I was replying - touche!
)(Aww c'mon Danny ... fairgo mate ... surely b-ugg-err-d is okay?
)
Last edited by Cross Check; 2nd July 2002 at 07:07.
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 97
Likes: 0
From: Seat 0B
Slim - The Flight Candidates applications pages are not giving the full story yet. Someone needs to go kick the Webmaster in charge of those pages a swift kick where the sun don't shine. Only the FAA's International Website is remotely up-to-date as best as I can find out so far. The info at DOT's and DOJ's websites is even getting stale last I looked and the FBI's pages has nothing.
Hah, hah... try telling that to the shareholders of Enron, Worldcom and Xerox... (Sorry, off the topic but it begged a rebuttal).
The USA is the epitomy of efficiency when it comes to making money.
Hah, hah... try telling that to the shareholders of Enron, Worldcom and Xerox...
(Sorry, off the topic but it begged a rebuttal).
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 160
Likes: 0
From: UK
Dear Mr. Mayday 1215,
With regard to EFT's arrangement with Ariben Aviator and the issuing of visas, why do you think that this is unprofessional? Since EFT are affiliated with Ariben Aviator, I think it makes sense that Ariben would issue the visas. It is to there benefit aswell after all. The process of becoming approved for visa issuance is a long and difficult one, so why not use a well respected and long established company to help you with the whole thing? To me, it means less hassle for students going over to train there.
Regards,
Cpt Paddy.
With regard to EFT's arrangement with Ariben Aviator and the issuing of visas, why do you think that this is unprofessional? Since EFT are affiliated with Ariben Aviator, I think it makes sense that Ariben would issue the visas. It is to there benefit aswell after all. The process of becoming approved for visa issuance is a long and difficult one, so why not use a well respected and long established company to help you with the whole thing? To me, it means less hassle for students going over to train there.
Regards,
Cpt Paddy.
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 1,981
Likes: 0
From: He's on the limb to nowhere
Cross Check
Even so, US citizens/nationals (and everyone else) going for an initial heavy jet type (or recurrency) will still require a clearance from the Attorney General
There is no provision in the Aviation and Transportation Act to check US Citizens when they want training on airplanes > 12500 lbs. There is no provision to check anybody on planes < 12500 lbs. I think that's coming. Yeh, GA is a different ball game, only for now I suspect.
Okay then, for those of us who are not a part of the favoured few (ie, not type rated) well ... you wait ... and wait ... and wait. How long I don't know, I'm currently trying to find out.
If you haven't heard back from the DOJ within 45 days, you can start training. They can still stop you after that time, but the max wait is defined.
Hah, hah... try telling that to the shareholders of Enron, Worldcom and Xerox... (Sorry, off the topic but it begged a rebuttal).
Loads of people made money, including a lot of shareholders (those employees with cheap options with an incentive to maintain share price, investment banks with an incentive to maintain share price etc), just not all of them
All in all, a very efficient method of transferring money from one type of shareholder to another.
Cheers
Even so, US citizens/nationals (and everyone else) going for an initial heavy jet type (or recurrency) will still require a clearance from the Attorney General
There is no provision in the Aviation and Transportation Act to check US Citizens when they want training on airplanes > 12500 lbs. There is no provision to check anybody on planes < 12500 lbs. I think that's coming. Yeh, GA is a different ball game, only for now I suspect.
Okay then, for those of us who are not a part of the favoured few (ie, not type rated) well ... you wait ... and wait ... and wait. How long I don't know, I'm currently trying to find out.
If you haven't heard back from the DOJ within 45 days, you can start training. They can still stop you after that time, but the max wait is defined.
Hah, hah... try telling that to the shareholders of Enron, Worldcom and Xerox... (Sorry, off the topic but it begged a rebuttal).
Loads of people made money, including a lot of shareholders (those employees with cheap options with an incentive to maintain share price, investment banks with an incentive to maintain share price etc), just not all of them
All in all, a very efficient method of transferring money from one type of shareholder to another.
Cheers