Concerned parent... mortgage sized training fees
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Spain
Posts: 102
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
As a parent having previously been in your position, I can fully appreciate your concerns.
In 2007 my son was made aware of the BACF mentored scheme whilst working at Birmingham Airport. He applied, along with another 3,500 - 4,000 potential trainees and was very fortunate to get one of the 4 positions available. He did his training out in Jerez (FTE) and completed the course in December 2008. During his training nearly everyone on his course lost their jobs due to the economic downturn. My son was not guaranteed a job but was took on by BA, completed his Type Rating and has not looked back since. Some of his fellow course members have still not got jobs as pilots and have had to pay more to keep their licences current.
He was in the fortunate position of being able to borrow the training costs from me (still waiting to be paid back!) Salaries are not what you might expect, given the high training cost. He regularly tells me he is doing his dream job and feels very lucky.
There has already been a lot of good advice on here already and I think it starts with sitting down with him and taking the romance out of the job and hitting him with hard facts as to where he may be if it doesn't go to plan.
Good luck!
In 2007 my son was made aware of the BACF mentored scheme whilst working at Birmingham Airport. He applied, along with another 3,500 - 4,000 potential trainees and was very fortunate to get one of the 4 positions available. He did his training out in Jerez (FTE) and completed the course in December 2008. During his training nearly everyone on his course lost their jobs due to the economic downturn. My son was not guaranteed a job but was took on by BA, completed his Type Rating and has not looked back since. Some of his fellow course members have still not got jobs as pilots and have had to pay more to keep their licences current.
He was in the fortunate position of being able to borrow the training costs from me (still waiting to be paid back!) Salaries are not what you might expect, given the high training cost. He regularly tells me he is doing his dream job and feels very lucky.
There has already been a lot of good advice on here already and I think it starts with sitting down with him and taking the romance out of the job and hitting him with hard facts as to where he may be if it doesn't go to plan.
Good luck!
Last edited by 32SQDN; 14th Oct 2013 at 10:18.
The last real pilot shortage was back in the late 80's. Back then people were walking straight into airline positions the same day that their "blue book" came through the letterbox! Those days are long gone. Since then the supply of "fresh meat" over demand has gradually got greater and greater despite expansion of the industry and airline pay and benefits have naturally been eroded. Yes, it is still possible to have good pay and lifestyle in companies like BA but your son will need to get onto the future pilot programme to achieve that and competition is very intense to get in. The low cost carriers are, to my mind to be avoided. In future it will all be pay to fly schemes and zero hour contracts & thats after £80-100k spent. I'm told some people have had to go bankrupt just to afford to feed themselves! Not good. Training schools only make money training people, after that they dont care and a commercial pilots licence is useless without a job at the end of it. Yes, of course, aircraft need pilots and they dont appear by magic out of nowhere but please understand some will go straight into a super job, others will get an ok job, work very hard and perhaps move several times and gradually build their career up, others will NEVER get a job. All this depends less on ability (all have met the same standard) but more on things like right place at the right time & does your face fit. I'll admit that i got a lucky break right after i qualified. Some these days, many in fact are not so fortunate. Its career "Russian roulette" in aviation at the moment. I cannot tell you what the exact odds are, but its become a very high stakes game and there are certainly no guarantees. Would i start out to become a pilot these days? NO.
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: The Soft South
Posts: 105
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Your opinion. I think nowadays the introduction of MPL tagged programmes, cadet schemes (please dear god don't think for a second that only BA offer it) are a fantastic way to ensure the safety of ones investment. Aer Lingus have their scheme, Thomson, Virgin and all of which offer you a great salary. I think many views on Pprune are very negative and in some cases believe that the opinions of the more 'established' pilots are not that much use to potential cadets when opting for flight training at the newer integrated schools. It was so different back in the day and times continue to change. However there is growth. If your willing to travel, funding, don't have the responsibility of a family and have the drive to succeed then you can make it. Just my opinion. 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: FL450
Posts: 5
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
It's very simple:
If you have worked and worked and that perverbial brick wall is still there then this is a
career.
If however you "walked" a licence thanks to the bank of mum and dad and then landed a career with BA of course this is the best, easiest thing since sliced bread and everyone should do it.
But what are the odds? How many are in the first bracket compared to the second?
My guess is about 10,000 to 1?
So, do a feel lucky? Well do ya p@@k?
If you have worked and worked and that perverbial brick wall is still there then this is a
career.If however you "walked" a licence thanks to the bank of mum and dad and then landed a career with BA of course this is the best, easiest thing since sliced bread and everyone should do it.
But what are the odds? How many are in the first bracket compared to the second?
My guess is about 10,000 to 1?
So, do a feel lucky? Well do ya p@@k?
Join Date: May 2001
Posts: 10,815
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
some cases believe that the opinions of the more 'established' pilots are not that much use to potential cadets when opting for flight training at the newer integrated schools.
Trust the group that wants to extract 80k plus out of them or a group of people who have absolutely no financial involvement one way or the other. H'mm don't like what one group is saying I think I will say they don't know what they are talking about.
We are never ever going to change the minds of 17-25 year olds who have been sold anything through the marketing.
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: maidstone
Posts: 24
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
About a year ago, I heard from my neighbour about how their son was about to embark of flying training which would see him spending time in Coventry before going out to Jordan (I think...) for further training. Eventually to end up with a commercial airline pilot's licence. My jaw dropped when they told me that they were funding the £80,000 ish cost of the course.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Birmingham, UK
Age: 62
Posts: 11
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Re: neighbour.
Not at all, you can bet this will be on the agenda next time we meet at the garden fence. As for their son, he's a few months into his training which he started during the summer. It's early days yet.
Not at all, you can bet this will be on the agenda next time we meet at the garden fence. As for their son, he's a few months into his training which he started during the summer. It's early days yet.
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: London
Posts: 173
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
We are never ever going to change the minds of 17-25 year olds who have been sold anything through the marketing.
I think it convinces many to go to the shiny integrated schools rather than the local airfield shed but in terms of actually making the decision to embark upon flight training of one sort of another with the aim of becoming a commercial pilot I am convinced that the majority want to become pilots so badly that barring a total lack of resources will find a way to do so almost no matter what they are told for the simple reason that from their perspective you only live once and therefore you have to follow your dream. A lot will have had that dream long before any marketing has had a chance to touch them...I know I did.
You may well roll your eyes at that but from the perspective of a recent university graduate I can tell you that no profession, not one that I know of, inspires anything like the level enthusiasm that flying does. I have yet to hear anyone talk about banking, or the law, or business consulting or whatever modern day well remunerated profession you care to mention like people do about flying.
I have also met many career changers who put their well earned money into paying to pursue what they wanted to. For many of those it made no logic (in a rational sense) to do so other than that they knew they wanted to. None of them expect a 'pot of gold' and indeed neither do the younger wannabees. They just want to do it. Simple as that. Because that is what flying does to people.
Sadly that is what leaves the profession vulnerable to poor Ts&Cs, especially at the bottom of the experience scale, because wannabees are prepared to suffer high levels of pain to get a foot in the door and realise that dream.
You may well roll your eyes at that but from the perspective of a recent university graduate I can tell you that no profession, not one that I know of, inspires anything like the level enthusiasm that flying does. I have yet to hear anyone talk about banking, or the law, or business consulting or whatever modern day well remunerated profession you care to mention like people do about flying.*
"Can you honestly ever remember playing chartered accountants."
That said I've met motor racing engineers, research scientists and a few others as enthusiastic about what they do as aviation people can be. But certainly not bankers or beancounters.
Last edited by Genghis the Engineer; 14th Oct 2013 at 18:22.
Join Date: Nov 1999
Posts: 2,312
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
That was interesting as a story about our neighbour and therefore not our problem. Until our son called us last night to tell us that he was seriously thinking about doing the same. There's some sort of open day in Southampton in November... Costs could be funded via special loans payable back over 10 years. This is on top of the student loan by the way. Further training is done in New Zealand which sounds very nice. There's another course somewhere else where the practical training is done in Arizona. And so on...
I'll be honest and say I know nothing about these courses and whether they amount to a genuine way into becoming a pilot with a good prospect of a very well paid career. My instinct is telling me that these places are tempting young people with the glamour of flying coupled with spending time in glamorous sounding places at a cost of loadsamoney... It sounds vaguely scammish to me ? I'm sure I'm wrong but would anyone be kind enough to explain more please ?
I'll be honest and say I know nothing about these courses and whether they amount to a genuine way into becoming a pilot with a good prospect of a very well paid career. My instinct is telling me that these places are tempting young people with the glamour of flying coupled with spending time in glamorous sounding places at a cost of loadsamoney... It sounds vaguely scammish to me ? I'm sure I'm wrong but would anyone be kind enough to explain more please ?
In the UK, there are three principle providers of full time training courses tied in with these programmes. They are: CAE Oxford (Oxford and Mesa Arizona); FTE Jerez (Jerez Spain); CTC Aviation (Southampton, Hamilton New Zealand, and Bournemouth). These are the "Big Three" players in this market, and are usually contracted (individually or collectively) to provide the training courses for these cadet programmes.
The "special loans" aren't particularly special at all. They are Second mortgages (or First mortgages if the purchaser doesn't already have one.) There are banks that specialize in formulating loans directed at this market, BBVA being the main player, but the fundamental loan is simply secured borrowing. There are some strict criteria attached to these loans, and they wouldn't be either available or suitable to everybody in any event.
The "Big Three" all have "Airline partners." These are airlines that either currently, or in the past, have taken graduates into their employment (cadet) programmes. Sometimes graduates appear in their statistics simply by virtue of the fact that said graduate eventually found a job at that airline, even though the school itself may have played no part in facilitating that transition. An airlines past plans may have no bearing on their current or future plans. Similarly no airline is locked to a particular school, and although there may be a historical association, it is quite conceivable that an airline can switch its own training provider as it sees fit. That said, it is well worth researching where those airlines that are recruiting cadets are sourcing their cadets from.
I have worked with graduates from these programmes for over 15 years. I have followed training courses from start to finish. I have visited all of the training facilities of one of the "Big Three" and seen how they market themselves, how they select, how they train, how they administer, and how they deal with successful and unsuccessful candidates.
I have seen what happens to the graduates who transition into employment with us, and the terms and conditions that those "ex-cadet" pilots are contracted to. As a senior airline captain and a father, that gives me a good perspective and I would say a qualified, experienced and well researched one. However, it is a particular pathway, and it isn't a route that the vast majority of aspirants to this industry will follow. The reasons for that are many: It is highly competitive and selective; it is very expensive; it has its own risk profile that will be unacceptable to many.
As others have already said, there is plenty of reading available to you, even within these forums. A lot of the previous advice is eminently sensible. Cadet programmes are not the only pathway to becoming a commercial pilot, and that is a subject for many other threads.
Maybe he will change his mind tomorrow.
Good luck!
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Wor Yerm
Age: 68
Posts: 4
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I will help my kids, but not with cash!
My eldest son would like to be a pilot. I'll help him all I can, but not with cash. That is for a few reasons. Firstly, I'll have to help all I my kids and I don't have the cash. Secondly it's a gamble I don't want to take. He will almost certainly finish a course and get a licence, but he'll the have to buy a type rating and by the looks of things - pay to work! That's not a job. Worse than that, there's every chance that with only a few hours (350 on type) he'll still be looking for a job. I'm not prepare to put our house on the line for that. Thirdly, if he pays, he'll have more of an incentive to work hard on his course. The harder you work, the better you get!
I truly feel very sorry for the poor souls learning to fly at the moment. The market is awash with newbies, all waiting to fly for nothing. My advice would be pay for him to get a Gas Safe Registation & Part P so that he can charge top rate in the building trade. That will give a return on the investment and with future income, fund a modular course. This will also make him value what he's doing, what he's done and make him more interesting to fly with. It will also mean he can walk away from a job offering pathetic Ts & Cs.
Remember, the easy bit it learning to fly. The difficult bit is getting a job and at the moment the hardest thing of all is making it pay!
Best of luck.
I truly feel very sorry for the poor souls learning to fly at the moment. The market is awash with newbies, all waiting to fly for nothing. My advice would be pay for him to get a Gas Safe Registation & Part P so that he can charge top rate in the building trade. That will give a return on the investment and with future income, fund a modular course. This will also make him value what he's doing, what he's done and make him more interesting to fly with. It will also mean he can walk away from a job offering pathetic Ts & Cs.
Remember, the easy bit it learning to fly. The difficult bit is getting a job and at the moment the hardest thing of all is making it pay!
Best of luck.
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: UK
Age: 44
Posts: 8
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Post training. Employment.
To all concerned parents.
I strongly advise you to read the thread I started detailing my experiences of the employment market post training:
fATPL Now What ?
I ditched a decent job and profession to follow the dream.
I heavily researched the job market and knew what I was getting into.
Things change quickly in aviation, namely the minimum experience requirements to be employable. This is not on a whim by the airlines, this is on the whole driven my the few big insurance conglomerates and more importantly the P&I Clubs / Co-Operatives.
Flying is a hard nut to crack, It is very much the catch 22, chicken and egg scenario for the newly qualified.
My situation is explained in my post link above, I have real commitments that (most) 19 year olds do not have to contend with such as house and family.
My advice is do it young.
BUT if you are a parent about to blow £120k on an integrated course I would sit your lad down and just explain how hard the general job market it and how long it takes to earn that sort of money.
If your nipper hasn't had a proper job and doesn't understand the value of the training then make them go find a job and learn some life lessons for a year before pumping your retirement / property equity / cash into a flash in the pan dream. They will value the whole experience much more in the end.
I have seen it - teenagers on these integrated (and modular) courses that have never had a job and don't have a clue about making a cup of tea let alone the realities of getting up and earning a wage.
Completing a training course is one thing - real life is another story as we all know.
I strongly advise you to read the thread I started detailing my experiences of the employment market post training:
fATPL Now What ?
I ditched a decent job and profession to follow the dream.
I heavily researched the job market and knew what I was getting into.
Things change quickly in aviation, namely the minimum experience requirements to be employable. This is not on a whim by the airlines, this is on the whole driven my the few big insurance conglomerates and more importantly the P&I Clubs / Co-Operatives.
Flying is a hard nut to crack, It is very much the catch 22, chicken and egg scenario for the newly qualified.
My situation is explained in my post link above, I have real commitments that (most) 19 year olds do not have to contend with such as house and family.
My advice is do it young.
BUT if you are a parent about to blow £120k on an integrated course I would sit your lad down and just explain how hard the general job market it and how long it takes to earn that sort of money.
If your nipper hasn't had a proper job and doesn't understand the value of the training then make them go find a job and learn some life lessons for a year before pumping your retirement / property equity / cash into a flash in the pan dream. They will value the whole experience much more in the end.
I have seen it - teenagers on these integrated (and modular) courses that have never had a job and don't have a clue about making a cup of tea let alone the realities of getting up and earning a wage.
Completing a training course is one thing - real life is another story as we all know.
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: The Soft South
Posts: 105
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Of course Luke Skytoddler my opinions as a young cadet will never be valued on this site and i apologise if i sound 'arrogant'. I was simply stating an opinion. And this is a view that from what i have seen, is taken by many non-pprune users, simply down to the fact that some (many) of the opinions on here can be negative. I agree fully that loans on a parents household is absurd, however if MPL tagged schemes and cadet programmes aren't good enough nowadays, what will be? Its never going to improve! 
Last edited by limesoda; 18th Oct 2013 at 10:53.
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Wales
Age: 73
Posts: 39
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Ok here is my two bobs worth.
I started my flying in 1972 with a PPL. Went to the USA to get a licence (cost £3000) and then onto bush flying in Africa. When I had enough hours (1500 then) got a British licence, did some charter flying and got a job with Dan Air in Aberdeen. Progresed up the ladder and became a 727 Captain with them. Was sent to Australia and joined Ansett ending with them as a check and training Captain and flying a 767 on long haul.
Many of my friends have been killed bush flying. Both the airlines I worked for went bust (no retirement benefits, little pension) my health suffered and I failed my medical. Went into training industry and met many unsavory crooks.
However it was a great lifestyle and I have seen most of the world and stayed in most of the best hotels in the world.
Would I do it again with hindsight NO.
The industry has changed. Automation has made the job very boring. T&C's are bad at the bottom and getting worse. Competition for the few jobs available is intense.
If your son is adamant that he wants to do it, then he must get himself on a course where someone else is paying for it and there is a guaranteed job at the end. Do not under any circumstances get yourself into huge debt unless you a very wealthy and can afford to write off £100k plus.
I started my flying in 1972 with a PPL. Went to the USA to get a licence (cost £3000) and then onto bush flying in Africa. When I had enough hours (1500 then) got a British licence, did some charter flying and got a job with Dan Air in Aberdeen. Progresed up the ladder and became a 727 Captain with them. Was sent to Australia and joined Ansett ending with them as a check and training Captain and flying a 767 on long haul.
Many of my friends have been killed bush flying. Both the airlines I worked for went bust (no retirement benefits, little pension) my health suffered and I failed my medical. Went into training industry and met many unsavory crooks.
However it was a great lifestyle and I have seen most of the world and stayed in most of the best hotels in the world.
Would I do it again with hindsight NO.
The industry has changed. Automation has made the job very boring. T&C's are bad at the bottom and getting worse. Competition for the few jobs available is intense.
If your son is adamant that he wants to do it, then he must get himself on a course where someone else is paying for it and there is a guaranteed job at the end. Do not under any circumstances get yourself into huge debt unless you a very wealthy and can afford to write off £100k plus.
Join Date: May 2001
Posts: 10,815
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
A couple of company's from the old Atlantic group still run fugly schemes.
yes yes I know you don't get to fly anything shiny. But I have never heard of a ex-fug struggle to find employment and progress up the ladder if they so wish. There are more than a few of them who go up and then come back down again back to the pilot jobs mainly because they were bored and not using most of their hard earned piloting skill set.
But the fugly scheme isn't for everyone. Its an extremely hard way of doing things and you require an exceptional level of innate pilot ability and capacity, an extremely thick skin, and a work ethic which seems to be very rare in youngsters these days.
yes yes I know you don't get to fly anything shiny. But I have never heard of a ex-fug struggle to find employment and progress up the ladder if they so wish. There are more than a few of them who go up and then come back down again back to the
pilot jobs mainly because they were bored and not using most of their hard earned piloting skill set.But the fugly scheme isn't for everyone. Its an extremely hard way of doing things and you require an exceptional level of innate pilot ability and capacity, an extremely thick skin, and a work ethic which seems to be very rare in youngsters these days.
Last edited by mad_jock; 19th Oct 2013 at 05:45.
Your last comment is a bit unfair Jock. As a fairly active observer of modern youth I'd say that the distribution on the scale "bone idle" to "workoholic" is pretty much what it always is.
For an industry greybeard to accuse a keen youngster of having a poor work ethic is a bit like a giraffe accusing a horse of having a short neck. They're as keen and hardworking as we were, we've just had more practice.
(That said, I agree about the rest.)
For an industry greybeard to accuse a keen youngster of having a poor work ethic is a bit like a giraffe accusing a horse of having a short neck. They're as keen and hardworking as we were, we've just had more practice.
(That said, I agree about the rest.)
Join Date: May 2001
Posts: 10,815
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
G if you knew what the guys had to do in there fuglyship you would know where I was coming from.
It wasn't a slur on the youngsters.
There first type ratings were on the grass cutter for COV airport and the photocopier. And most of them racked up 1000's of miles per month at night shifting the freighter crews about.
And if anyone needed 10 ton of sand shifted by hand guess who got to do it. And if they were lucky they got to do a 12 hour ops shift as well.
The work is/was varied with very tenuous links to anything aviation related.
And it was all to be done with a smile.
To be honest I don't think I could have done it, certainly not with a smile or without numerous swear words.
But......
The ones that made it through all turned out to be exceptional all round pilots with PIC skills far more developed than you would expect with the hours on the CV.
It wasn't a slur on the youngsters.
There first type ratings were on the grass cutter for COV airport and the photocopier. And most of them racked up 1000's of miles per month at night shifting the freighter crews about.
And if anyone needed 10 ton of sand shifted by hand guess who got to do it. And if they were lucky they got to do a 12 hour ops shift as well.
The work is/was varied with very tenuous links to anything aviation related.
And it was all to be done with a smile.
To be honest I don't think I could have done it, certainly not with a smile or without numerous swear words.
But......
The ones that made it through all turned out to be exceptional all round pilots with PIC skills far more developed than you would expect with the hours on the CV.
Last edited by mad_jock; 19th Oct 2013 at 13:40.
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: yes
Posts: 62
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Avoid paying too much money up front. Here is the reason.
About 20 years or so ago a quite prominent training outfit in Kent. when on their backs, legs up. I heard from a very reliable source, one week before this happened, a chap handed over £60,000 for his son to get a license. That was the last he saw of it. They must have known this was about to happen but they still took the poor guys money!
If that had been me I would have tracked down the money people there and would probably have swung for them.
About 20 years or so ago a quite prominent training outfit in Kent. when on their backs, legs up. I heard from a very reliable source, one week before this happened, a chap handed over £60,000 for his son to get a license. That was the last he saw of it. They must have known this was about to happen but they still took the poor guys money!
If that had been me I would have tracked down the money people there and would probably have swung for them.
Join Date: May 2001
Posts: 10,815
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I would have thought that company's taking mortgage sized amounts of cash off people then going bust before the student has completed the training course is of a concern to any parent.
And there is a bit of a history of it happening to quite large schools with little or no warning.
SFT and CABAIR are prime examples or a whole load of people being out of large amounts of money.
And there is a bit of a history of it happening to quite large schools with little or no warning.
SFT and CABAIR are prime examples or a whole load of people being out of large amounts of money.