fATPL Now What ?
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fATPL Now What ?
Hello everyone.
I am new here. First post so please be kind, I have been an unregistered browser until this stage.
I have a simple question, so I will keep it snappy:
I have my fATPL, but what do I do now?
Who do I approach for work or than the big carriers who do not appear to be recruiting at all!
I am new here. First post so please be kind, I have been an unregistered browser until this stage.
I have a simple question, so I will keep it snappy:
I have my fATPL, but what do I do now?
Who do I approach for work or than the big carriers who do not appear to be recruiting at all!
Join Date: May 2008
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Ha, this cannot be serious!
Have you tried applying for BA? That's the only airline I can think of, I have so little imagination or ability to research. If BA won't give you a job, I'm stumped I'm afraid
Have you tried applying for BA? That's the only airline I can think of, I have so little imagination or ability to research. If BA won't give you a job, I'm stumped I'm afraid
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Hello? Jon?
Jon, if you're a troll, your question is ill-timed, in bad taste and unwelcome.. IMHO of course..
If on the other hand you've "invested" 2 or 3 years of your life and £150k + and still need to ask such a thing... go back to your previous career.
Sorry buddy..the future is grim even for thousands of bright candidates..
and if you're being serious here, you're at the back of a very long queue.
If on the other hand you've "invested" 2 or 3 years of your life and £150k + and still need to ask such a thing... go back to your previous career.
Sorry buddy..the future is grim even for thousands of bright candidates..
and if you're being serious here, you're at the back of a very long queue.
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I assure you this is not a joke.
I am at the stage where I will take ANY new advice, I have approached airlines directly and agencies. (I am not expecting to walk into a big jet job)
I have a previous career to fall back on. But, to me, this would be failure and giving up which I am not prepared to do.
I had a PM after my first post from a chap a similar age to myself, but at the start of the training ladder. He wanted to know what my experiences had been post training.
If any of you out there have had any different experiences please let me know, but as a generalisation I have found:
1. Unless you have big money to spend TR there are no employment options at the moment with airlines.
2. Getting a response from employers is unheard of - even just a reply of 'we are not recruiting'
3. Corporate/Exec aviation. Forget it, unless Dad works at the management Co' or your Uncle is a captain.
4. Try to get a ground based job within aviation and work up to flight deck. Good luck join the end of a queue of 19 year olds living with mum and working for free.
5. Forget competing with Integrated graduates. Integrated training establishments are audited by airlines, the airlines know, love and approve their training procedures and student monitoring. The airlines use the exact same finance arrangements for their own cadets which makes picking up an independent Integrated graduate a safe and easy process when taking on the debt.
Any kind offers of advice or who to approach much appreciated.
I am at the stage where I will take ANY new advice, I have approached airlines directly and agencies. (I am not expecting to walk into a big jet job)
I have a previous career to fall back on. But, to me, this would be failure and giving up which I am not prepared to do.
I had a PM after my first post from a chap a similar age to myself, but at the start of the training ladder. He wanted to know what my experiences had been post training.
If any of you out there have had any different experiences please let me know, but as a generalisation I have found:
1. Unless you have big money to spend TR there are no employment options at the moment with airlines.
2. Getting a response from employers is unheard of - even just a reply of 'we are not recruiting'
3. Corporate/Exec aviation. Forget it, unless Dad works at the management Co' or your Uncle is a captain.
4. Try to get a ground based job within aviation and work up to flight deck. Good luck join the end of a queue of 19 year olds living with mum and working for free.
5. Forget competing with Integrated graduates. Integrated training establishments are audited by airlines, the airlines know, love and approve their training procedures and student monitoring. The airlines use the exact same finance arrangements for their own cadets which makes picking up an independent Integrated graduate a safe and easy process when taking on the debt.
Any kind offers of advice or who to approach much appreciated.
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Hindsight it great, but really you should always be looking at least 1-2 steps ahead in the chain, so you should of at least had a plan before you completed the CPL IR. I have very little sympathy for you.
There really aren't many opportunities out there for people in your position. Buy your way into a job, or be very patient and keep at it. Either way it's going to cost you a lot to stay current, and with each month you will become less and less employable as your skills degrade through lack of use.
If you do indeed have a career to fall back on, my advice would be to chalk this one up to experience and move on with your life.
There really aren't many opportunities out there for people in your position. Buy your way into a job, or be very patient and keep at it. Either way it's going to cost you a lot to stay current, and with each month you will become less and less employable as your skills degrade through lack of use.
If you do indeed have a career to fall back on, my advice would be to chalk this one up to experience and move on with your life.
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Have you thought of acquiring a flying instructor rating and then attempting to find a job with a flying club or school. It is also a very difficult market, but it adds another string to your bow. In the meantime you can continue to fight for each and every potential opportunity there might be out in the wider world.
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The trouble then is that the instructor market is flooded with people who got the rating as a last resort, and don't want to do the job! You've got to be pretty dedicated to get anything decent out of instructing. There comes a point where you're just throwing good money after bad. If it's £7k on an instructor rating, or £30k on a type rating, or £50k on line training, you can justify it to yourself any way you want, but it's very unlikely that you'll get an airline job from where you are now.
I'd refer you to post #6.
I'd refer you to post #6.
Last edited by RTN11; 10th Oct 2013 at 23:07.
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Get an instructor rating.
It won't keep you housed and fed on the earnings, but it will keep you current in 'handling' so that when you do get an interview you will stand a much better chance of getting through any sim assessment.
Get a ground job at an airport, preferably 'air-side' as a dispatcher, etc., or in an airline's ops, planning, admin, etc., departments.
This will supplement the low earnings from instructing and will give you a proven record in airline involvement and you will stand a much better chance of getting to hear about flying job opportunities and getting to know the people involved in employing.
Then get a job with a regional airline first. They are going to be starting to become short of pilots not too far off and will be a good start to a career. By all means if that 'big job' lands in your lap then go for it, but don't waste all your time and money aiming for it and nothing else. From a regional job you will be in a much better position to work your way up the airline 'career ladder'.
The experience (and enjoyment!) that you'll get from those early days of instructing and 'regional' flying will stick with you for the rest of your life. Learn to walk before you try to run. If you put all your efforts into that 'big job' and 'big type rating' straight off, you could very easily end up as one of those bitter and twisted old gits later on.
It won't keep you housed and fed on the earnings, but it will keep you current in 'handling' so that when you do get an interview you will stand a much better chance of getting through any sim assessment.
Get a ground job at an airport, preferably 'air-side' as a dispatcher, etc., or in an airline's ops, planning, admin, etc., departments.
This will supplement the low earnings from instructing and will give you a proven record in airline involvement and you will stand a much better chance of getting to hear about flying job opportunities and getting to know the people involved in employing.
Then get a job with a regional airline first. They are going to be starting to become short of pilots not too far off and will be a good start to a career. By all means if that 'big job' lands in your lap then go for it, but don't waste all your time and money aiming for it and nothing else. From a regional job you will be in a much better position to work your way up the airline 'career ladder'.
The experience (and enjoyment!) that you'll get from those early days of instructing and 'regional' flying will stick with you for the rest of your life. Learn to walk before you try to run. If you put all your efforts into that 'big job' and 'big type rating' straight off, you could very easily end up as one of those bitter and twisted old gits later on.
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Hindsight it great, but really you should always be looking at least 1-2 steps ahead in the chain, so you should of at least had a plan before you completed the CPL IR. I have very little sympathy for you.
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Try to get a ground based job within aviation and work up to flight deck. Good luck join the end of a queue of 19 year olds living with mum and working for free.
PPRuNe Handmaiden
Are you reading Flight International?
Go to the back pages (ie jobs section). Search who's taking on sim instructors and engineers. They're the ones expanding/hiring.
Apply to them. Obviously if the airline has never taken on low houred guys, move on.
Go to the back pages (ie jobs section). Search who's taking on sim instructors and engineers. They're the ones expanding/hiring.
Apply to them. Obviously if the airline has never taken on low houred guys, move on.
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I'm soon to be in the same boat as the OP and some of thee responses here are filling me with a bit of worry. I know it won't be easy to land a pilot job,I'm happy to do FO for however long it takes, but when I see responses like this I question my decision.
I may be in a slightly different situation as I have a job that pays enough for me to do my training and this will be a change of career. I also have a family that I need to continue to support throughout all this.
I'm starting my ATPL in a month or so and on to CPL after getting the hours. I wasn’t going for a TR unless I'm sure of a job or get sponsored. I've always been worried that it may be spending loads of money for nothing at the end of it all. I've spoken to a few pilots and instructors and they all say that I'm going about it the correct way, based on my circumstances.
Responses like some of these really worry me, as I'm sure they worry the OP. Is it really that bleak out there or are the harsh responses unnecessarily pessimistic?
I may be in a slightly different situation as I have a job that pays enough for me to do my training and this will be a change of career. I also have a family that I need to continue to support throughout all this.
I'm starting my ATPL in a month or so and on to CPL after getting the hours. I wasn’t going for a TR unless I'm sure of a job or get sponsored. I've always been worried that it may be spending loads of money for nothing at the end of it all. I've spoken to a few pilots and instructors and they all say that I'm going about it the correct way, based on my circumstances.
Responses like some of these really worry me, as I'm sure they worry the OP. Is it really that bleak out there or are the harsh responses unnecessarily pessimistic?
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To the poster above, it sounds like your method is the best route. As long as you are aware you may not get a job for 5 years and when you do, it's likely you will have to move away from where you are now (and your family). I'm sure you know this already.
PPrune is a moany, moody place but with good information if you can siv through all the rubbish. The job situation is not as bad as people make out, but it's far from good either.
Keep you're head up, work hard in training and explore the many options to get a job. When applying to small operators especially, think outside the box. You need to think of something really unique and apply it.
I know how you feel though. It wasn't even a year ago I was still doing training and reading threads like this made me so depressed. Yet, I walked into a job flying jets around Europe. So keep your chin up!
PPrune is a moany, moody place but with good information if you can siv through all the rubbish. The job situation is not as bad as people make out, but it's far from good either.
Keep you're head up, work hard in training and explore the many options to get a job. When applying to small operators especially, think outside the box. You need to think of something really unique and apply it.
I know how you feel though. It wasn't even a year ago I was still doing training and reading threads like this made me so depressed. Yet, I walked into a job flying jets around Europe. So keep your chin up!
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Thanks for that honest response, it sounds like what I've heard form the level-headed pilots I've spoken to, glad to see it gets confirmed in more than one place. Happy to see you've landed ok job-wise, hope the same happens for me but I'm expecting the long haul!
One question I keep forgetting to ask -- was all the hard work studying and training worth it?
Thanks again.
One question I keep forgetting to ask -- was all the hard work studying and training worth it?
Thanks again.
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Thank you for the (mostly) constructive comments..
Reference instructor rating, well yes I have spoken to local schools. It's an option purely to gain hours, but it is in no way a mid or long term option for anyone who has paid to train to fATPL. The numbers do not stack up.
Reference TR. That is only half the battle, you generally need a decent number of hours to back it up with to become a strong consideration.
On the subject of hours. Two weeks ago I met a newly recruited FO working at one of the large UK lines. They had followed almost the same route of training as myself but the big difference was along the way their family had funded just shy of 500 hours of hour building!..and paid TR. Can't compete with that. The entire room was astonished when they offered this information out freely.. I still can't get my head around it.£££
Maybe I should go pay to do an MPL with a guaranteed job.
Reference instructor rating, well yes I have spoken to local schools. It's an option purely to gain hours, but it is in no way a mid or long term option for anyone who has paid to train to fATPL. The numbers do not stack up.
Reference TR. That is only half the battle, you generally need a decent number of hours to back it up with to become a strong consideration.
On the subject of hours. Two weeks ago I met a newly recruited FO working at one of the large UK lines. They had followed almost the same route of training as myself but the big difference was along the way their family had funded just shy of 500 hours of hour building!..and paid TR. Can't compete with that. The entire room was astonished when they offered this information out freely.. I still can't get my head around it.£££
Maybe I should go pay to do an MPL with a guaranteed job.