Is it really all that bad?
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Is it really all that bad?
After reading through some of the threads regarding Integrated/Modular ATPL training in the UK, it's safe to say I've lost all confidence in ever being able to fly passenger aircraft.
Is it really as bad as it's made out to be on here?
It just seems to me that it's all "Give up!" "Choose another career!" "The current market needs less pilots not more!"
Is it really as bad as it's made out to be on here?
It just seems to me that it's all "Give up!" "Choose another career!" "The current market needs less pilots not more!"
Take a lot of things on here with a pinch of salt. Out of my (relatively small) group of pilot friends, most people know pprune to be a bit disaster prone. A lot of the things you read on here, particularly with regards to recruitment, is from people that have not made it. There are also a lot of bitter people out there and this forum provides a very good place to have a rant.
My best advice is to talk to people that you can verify and get a good idea. If you take all of your aviation news from strangers on the internet then that won't instil you with much confidence.
HOWEVER; that fact that there are bitter people on here means that bad things DO happen. I don't think the aviation industry is as bad as some people on here would have you believe, but then if bad things have happened to other people, then there is a chance (however small) that it may happen to you. So rather than using this as the be all and end all, use it as an opinion. after all, that's all these posts are (most of the time).
My best advice is to talk to people that you can verify and get a good idea. If you take all of your aviation news from strangers on the internet then that won't instil you with much confidence.
HOWEVER; that fact that there are bitter people on here means that bad things DO happen. I don't think the aviation industry is as bad as some people on here would have you believe, but then if bad things have happened to other people, then there is a chance (however small) that it may happen to you. So rather than using this as the be all and end all, use it as an opinion. after all, that's all these posts are (most of the time).
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No it's no where near as bad as what people say on here. I'm not saying it's a good situation out there, but pprune is well known for being full of moaners. As said above, the majority of the moaners are people who don't have jobs, and want to put you off training.
If you are a good pilot, a job will come around for you eventually. The catch is, you have to do the training to find out how good you are. If you are bad, the odds are not in your favour.
My advice to anyone right now would be to go and work in the office (ops for example) of a smallish company for a couple of years. Then start training part time and continue the job part time. If they are going to hire any 200hr newbie...it'll be you! Even the big airlines like easyJet and jet2 hire (hired?) 200hr pilots from within, although it's highly competitive, so like I said earlier...if you're a bad pilot the odds are against you.
I've seen this method work before, but you just got to pick the right company to work for. Working as Ryanair cabin crew for a few years, for example, would not give you a job in the flight deck. Same would probably go for Virgin who want experienced pilots.
Of course, you could always apply for a tagged airline scheme.
If you are a good pilot, a job will come around for you eventually. The catch is, you have to do the training to find out how good you are. If you are bad, the odds are not in your favour.
My advice to anyone right now would be to go and work in the office (ops for example) of a smallish company for a couple of years. Then start training part time and continue the job part time. If they are going to hire any 200hr newbie...it'll be you! Even the big airlines like easyJet and jet2 hire (hired?) 200hr pilots from within, although it's highly competitive, so like I said earlier...if you're a bad pilot the odds are against you.
I've seen this method work before, but you just got to pick the right company to work for. Working as Ryanair cabin crew for a few years, for example, would not give you a job in the flight deck. Same would probably go for Virgin who want experienced pilots.
Of course, you could always apply for a tagged airline scheme.
Last edited by pudoc; 5th Sep 2013 at 20:54.
not if I like them
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Out of interest, what sort of cash are new pilots on these days?
Obviously there are loads of different roles/jobs and companies.
But what's the ball park/spectrum for various jobs?
Low cost, Small carrier, air taxi, air ambulance, survey, fisheries ... you get my drift.
I'm working and happy as an ATCO, but I did get a commercial sized log book for my ppl training. Never say never! Just thinking it may be better to fly for fun ... esp if the pay is just painful ...
Cheers folks.
Obviously there are loads of different roles/jobs and companies.
But what's the ball park/spectrum for various jobs?
Low cost, Small carrier, air taxi, air ambulance, survey, fisheries ... you get my drift.
I'm working and happy as an ATCO, but I did get a commercial sized log book for my ppl training. Never say never! Just thinking it may be better to fly for fun ... esp if the pay is just painful ...
Cheers folks.
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Those of us who did well and got decent jobs post here from time to time on topics we find of interest.
Those who got their cpl and ir but never got a job have all day to sit on here and moan.
That's why it looks worse than it is.
Those who got their cpl and ir but never got a job have all day to sit on here and moan.
That's why it looks worse than it is.
From my experience in the UK and friends in the industry: If you're already an ATCO with a career path you'll never recoup the cost of pilot training + the loss of income during your entry/mid level pilot jobs (presuming you get an entry level job to start with).
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I’m one of those that has done their training and not yet managed to find a job, I don’t regard myself as being very bitter (maybe a bit) and compared to many that post on PPRuNe I’m a bit of a pussy cat. However I completed all my training using my own money and I have no debts secured against my (or anyone else’s) property and I have no lenders breathing down my neck for £1000+ per month.
In my own view, the only sensible way to go now is to maintain a job and an income while training part time. That way you manage to keep money coming in while you learn and when you complete training you still have a job to fall back on while you seek flying work. If the employment prospects genuinely improve significantly then you can drop the job and train full time.
At the moment, to commit eye watering sums of money to an integrated school unless you’re on an airline cadet scheme with a provisional job offer at the end is crazy (but people still do it) and to use property as security against a loan for such a course is ‘bark at the moon’ madness.
Hope that doesn’t sound too bitter and twisted, the challenge is to filter out the really twisted doom mongers who use PPRuNe as mouthpiece to further their own agendas.
Good luck with whatever you choose to do.
In my own view, the only sensible way to go now is to maintain a job and an income while training part time. That way you manage to keep money coming in while you learn and when you complete training you still have a job to fall back on while you seek flying work. If the employment prospects genuinely improve significantly then you can drop the job and train full time.
At the moment, to commit eye watering sums of money to an integrated school unless you’re on an airline cadet scheme with a provisional job offer at the end is crazy (but people still do it) and to use property as security against a loan for such a course is ‘bark at the moon’ madness.
Hope that doesn’t sound too bitter and twisted, the challenge is to filter out the really twisted doom mongers who use PPRuNe as mouthpiece to further their own agendas.
Good luck with whatever you choose to do.
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I personally don’t think it’s as bad as people make out to be, however this is my view as an aircraft designer working in the civil sector, not aircrew. I have a friend who joined a tagged scheme and now fly’s for a UK airline, so it is possible.
From my research and funding methods the best way would be:
Stay employed, go modular, work hard, join a flying club/group, make yourself known as keen and look for contacts… for the final step, have a career break (if possible) and see if you can get a worthwhile flying job. At least then if your unsuccessful you can return to your day job.
It can be a bit depressing when you think of the time and costs involved, particularly with the poor likely hood of getting a job… But it is possible!
From my research and funding methods the best way would be:
Stay employed, go modular, work hard, join a flying club/group, make yourself known as keen and look for contacts… for the final step, have a career break (if possible) and see if you can get a worthwhile flying job. At least then if your unsuccessful you can return to your day job.
It can be a bit depressing when you think of the time and costs involved, particularly with the poor likely hood of getting a job… But it is possible!
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You are never really going to get an accurate representation on the internet.
You will hear of people getting jobs but nearly all are buying them through type ratings at EZY, FR etc so they don't really count.
I am within a couple of months of being debt free having finished my modular course last year. If the bank handed me 30k tomorrow and told me to buy a type rating I would refuse. I would never put myself into that amount of debt and incur the stresses that go along with it, to irresponsibly fly passengers around while tired.
My campaign to out these guys continues btw. Caught two more in the last week. Usual story, person finds out I'm looking for work as a pilot and suggests I try FR as they have a friend there. I point out that their friend paid 30k to FR.........FR pilot loses friend.
You will hear of people getting jobs but nearly all are buying them through type ratings at EZY, FR etc so they don't really count.
I am within a couple of months of being debt free having finished my modular course last year. If the bank handed me 30k tomorrow and told me to buy a type rating I would refuse. I would never put myself into that amount of debt and incur the stresses that go along with it, to irresponsibly fly passengers around while tired.
My campaign to out these guys continues btw. Caught two more in the last week. Usual story, person finds out I'm looking for work as a pilot and suggests I try FR as they have a friend there. I point out that their friend paid 30k to FR.........FR pilot loses friend.
Last edited by TeaTowel; 6th Sep 2013 at 11:12.
