Europeancitizen

Thanks for your reply. I could afford them with efforts of course, but I have some savings and loads of hope and motivation.
Starting salaries are one my main concerns if I achieve entering an airline somehow after getting all the required licences. I have been told that companies such as EZY or RYR pay more than that, but not sure though. The thing is that probably being a freshly licensed pilot with no prior experience nor TR of any kind, sounds too optimistic to find a proper job in the medium term from today, and in a short time period after graduation?
With perks, I was thinking about a daily life that albeit its sacrifices, I find it challenging and amazing (travelling, big responsibility, continuous study to be updated, best views possible from an office, dream of my childhood, etc...)

Europeancitizen

Hi rudestuff,
I don't think a 30ish year career is not enough. What I am refering to is if airlines prefer 20 yo fresh pilots or 30ish fresh pilots with more life experiencie, both in terms of maturity and professional experience although in a different field.
I don't know the phrase buy the dip I'm afraid. You mean now is a good moment?
Thanks

Europeancitizen

Any help would be much appreciated!!

redsnail

Hi Europeancitizen,
"loads of hope and motivation" many many many people have had that. Hope and motivation will not pay for a mortgage or help you save for retirement. It's great that you have it but you do need to be very realistic. Eg, I can hope that the weather will improve for the arrival but If I haven't planned for a diversion, then I am in a whole world of bother.
Buying the dip is a reference to buying shares on the stock market. You buy when there's a dip or downturn in the market and sell when it rises.
There is one well known low cost airline in Europe that flies B737s that has a reputation for not employing anyone over 40.

Fair enough re perks. Here's a recent flight.

Europeancitizen

[QUOTE=redsnail;11246518]Hi Europeancitizen,
"loads of hope and motivation" many many many people have had that. Hope and motivation will not pay for a mortgage or help you save for retirement. It's great that you have it but you do need to be very realistic. Eg, I can hope that the weather will improve for the arrival but If I haven't planned for a diversion, then I am in a whole world of bother.
Buying the dip is a reference to buying shares on the stock market. You buy when there's a dip or downturn in the market and sell when it rises.
There is one well known low cost airline in Europe that flies B737s that has a reputation for not employing anyone over 40.

Fair enough re perks. Here's a recent flight.

Great flight!!
Thanks redsnail, I agree with your views. I am 35 now, and expect to finish everything by 37 so hopefully age will not be a problem? Let's see how things recover in 2 years time. I want to try my best in achieving this, and if something goes wrong, I can always return to my current profession.

byrondaf

airlines couldn't care less of your age, I've seen plenty of "older" FO's join our airline. The captains you fly with will probably appreciate that you've got a bit of life experience and more to talk about than just going to Uni and starting at CAE/L3 etc.

As far as a good time to train, who knows. Plan for the worst and hope for the best and you'll have a back up if **** hits the fan again anytime soon.

alvocaviat

Hey dude,

Here to help, up to you ultimately. I can relate to your situation as I was in your predicament YEARS back.

Q1: If family life is important to you have a think about this, depending on the airline, you will be away for xmas on a trip, won't get a swap for your loved ones birthdays/funerals. will work weekends and public holidays BUT you'll have a lot of time off because of flight time limitations during the course of the year, have a bidding system in your airline for those special days. Pilots do commute throughout Europe generally with their own airline where you will jumpiest for free so that won't be an issue.

Q2: yes of course you will probably be based in Europe.

Q3: In Ryanair you return to your home base everyday, some airlines you could be on overnights for 5 days throughout Europe and back to your home base on day 5. I think the question you are asking though for your case is lets say you are living in Amsterdam but based in Dusseldorf, can you commute everyday back to Amsterdam, technically you could but you will be very very tired and flights get cancelled, bad weather etc..... so no not possible.

Q4: No Airlines don't care what you have but invest in getting a good CV and covering letter done.

Pilot life is not really suited to families unless you are super lucky and get a base close to your home, its a very selfish occupation. Aviation Induced Divorce (AID's) is a real thing and I have seen plenty of marriages destroyed because flying/money is more important than kids and wife. if you start in Ryanair you will be based in STN/DUB or literally anywhere on the continent so expect to commute from there, Transavia or KLM well you will get looked after. Money is terrible and conditions are awful in the low cost airlines so don't expect more than 20k a year in the fist year.

I did the training and got a job, I'm close to home have kids now and wife still puts up with me but it did put a big strain on our family life for first 4 years. want to move companies now so I know there'll be a tough road ahead but that's aviation dude its always changing. you can get real lucky or get seriously ****** over, hard one to call.

what I would do is go for a cadet gig that's not a low cost airline while still keeping your engineering gig. Low cost is awful and a terrible way to start your aviation career.

would I do it again?? so far yes but its **** at the moment things will come good again.

im not going to tell you what to do your a big boy. best of luck

flyingdoctor357

Adding onto the pile of messages, apologies if some or all of my questions have been answered already…
From the UK, have a good engineering degree and because of covid went for my ‘backup’ career and have started medicine, with 4 years to go. I have my medical and have kept it up to date just in case.

I have since realised after numerous conversations that following one’s dream is far more important, so have decided funnelling my funds into becoming a pilot is a better decision for me - I recognise the huge numbers of downsides of professional flying but I think I am past saving at this point as I do understand anyone sane would probably finish up becoming a doctor yet still want to fly even with the risks/pay/conditions (that being said, Id argue the NHS isn’t doing much better of late with the exception of me having a 100% job guarantee if I pass my exams).

A few questions really:

1) Will there be a job to get if I graduate mid-late 2024 given the aftermath of covid and the impending recession? I get very different messages as to what the job market is doing and is going to do, so if I’m genuinely going to ruin my future training now and not getting a job at the end, I’ll become a doctor then fund pilot training in my 40s as a consultant (even though I’d rather get going now).
2) MPL or fATPL? I was looking at generation easyJet at CAE since they seem to be open, and I’ve heard despite the rocky start for those trained during covid they are now employed. If not that, is FTEJerez still the premier institution that it was when I looked at it around covid times?
3) Can someone explain to me what tagging is in ATPL programmes? Companies don’t seem to clarify what tagging entails and whether it’s provisional employment or just an interview. And are any airlines actually tagging pilots in the likes of FTE training programmes at the moment anyway or just hiring the backlog of type rated pilots from pre-covid?
4) if everything goes wrong and there is no job market, what is the cost of upkeep of an fATPL (or MPL) whilst waiting and applying for jobs? I assume knowledge checks and flying hours are required - but again I’m not entirely clear on how many, and what kind of money I will need to earn to stop the initial 100k going to waste and keep my licences intact before employment.

I hope that was all clear - I’m writing this in a short period of time in a break at the hospital!

Thanks in advance to whatever poor souls deal with the endless stream of wannabes like me.

G SXTY

flyingdoctor357

I qualified in 2007 so other people will have more recent experience of flight training, but I’ll try and answer your points.

(1) The million dollar question. Who knows? Without a doubt the industry got rid of too many jobs as a result of COVID, leaving airlines and airports short of staff for the rebuild. My employer is a glaring and shameful example of that. All things being equal, there will be a need for some recruitment to replace pilots who’ve been made redundant or left the industry altogether. In the UK, BA, Virgin & Jet2 have all recently advertised pilot vacancies, which is a positive sign. However . . . All things being equal . . .

Russia turning the gas taps off is contributing massively to inflation and the cost of living crisis, not just in the UK but across Europe, and there is little chance of the situation improving anytime soon. There’s a good chance it will provoke a recession, and if that happens don’t expect much expansion / recruitment for the foreseeable.

If you’re impatient to start training (and we’ve all been there) then slow but steady would be my advice.


(2) fATPL, definitely. I assume you know that a MPL course ties you to a specific airline and type of aircraft? If that airline has second thoughts and stops recruiting, they can and will drop you and your course mates in a heartbeat. And it has happened. Your training school might then – without a hint of embarrassment - offer you the ‘opportunity’ to convert onto an fATPL course and pay for it all over again . . .

And if you go fATPL, don’t fall for the marketing hype and be aware you don’t have to go integrated to get into an airline. Modular gives you the same licence for less cash and – crucially in the current climate – allows you to train part time or slow down the pace of training to suit the job market. (See point 1 above). I cannot overemphasise the importance of qualifying when airlines are actually recruiting.


(3) I’m not familiar with the term, but assume it means some sort of link-up with the school and a possible job offer when you qualify. If so it could mean anything from a guaranteed job offer (very unlikely) to your CV landing on a smaller pile and giving you a better chance of an interview. Schools like to big-up their relationships with airlines, for obvious reasons, but in terms of the big picture, if airlines are recruiting there will be jobs out there, if they’re not then you’ll struggle to find work whatever the school’s marketing people tell you.


(4) An often overlooked point . . . The instrument rating must be renewed every year, and as well as the cost of the test, if you’re not flying regularly then expect to budget for some refresher training first to get you back up to speed. IR skills are very perishable, particularly with low hours / experience. As I said it’s a while since I trained, but back then the ball park was to work on Ł1000 p/a to keep the IR current. On top of that, airlines value currency / recency, especially for low hours pilots. My first employer wanted 50hrs flying experience in the last year, and Virgin’s recent advert wanted 200hrs flying hours in the last year as well as a type rating (not that I’ve checked). That’s a reflection of the job market and shows they can afford to be picky.

If you’re paying to keep an IR current and only flying 10-20 hours per year, you will be at a significant disadvantage compared to someone with a newly issued licence. (See point 2 above).

Not a problem – we were all wannabes once!

EmbraerAhoy

Hello everyone!

This year, I'm finally going to take the big step and start my journey to achieve my dream of becoming a commercial pilot.
I've taken every precaution that I could have to mitigate the financial risks: I've just completed a degree in business law as an emergency backup option and have managed to build a secure career at the job that I started at the start of my degree. I've chosen a reputable ATO that's not far from where I live and can keep my job part time during my integrated ATPL.

I feel like with that I've built a solid base to start flight training, and now that I'm getting closer to my start date I'd like to ask for any tips that you would have liked to have given to yourself before you started your training, that you didn't know at that point. I just want to prepare myself as much as I possibly can before I get stuck in.
(I'm asking for anything you can think of, like for instance any small, helpful things about general life as a student pilot, learning the theory, the actual flying, maybe even things that made the transitioning to IFR easier for you)

I'd be really grateful for any input, thanks!

redsnail

Have you done a Class 1 medical? No point in starting all of this without getting that out of the way. If you don't want to go to the expense of the medical, find the EASA Med requirements and have a chat to your doctor and optician.
Best thing to do? Plan your time wisely and allow some "down time/relaxation". Flash cards are very useful for recalling lots of useless data. Believe me, most of the ATPL theory is useless data you'll never use. There are electronic ones around (eg Quizlet) but you are better off building your own sets as it will reinforce learning.

EmbraerAhoy

Thanks for that, making my own flashcards/summaries made my life a lot easier at uni too.
And yes, I passed my Class 1 last week. Wouldn't even have thought of starting without one and my ATO requires one before I even start training with them, which is a big green flag in my opinion.

RichardH

Hi EmbraerAhoy

I ​​​​ concur with redsnail's post.

​​​​​​You might be underestimating the amount of work on integrated course particularly during the ATPL theory phase. As redsnail stated mostly useless but it's a lot of volume in a short period of time & successful students (first time passes with good %) are the ones 110% committed to this with no distractions or emotional baggage holding them back. Though it would be good to continue to work part-time I am not sure you will be able to SUCCESSFULLY do both, as it's full-time day classes with most students doing several hours extra homework. You might find yourself getting (justifiably) annoyed with the standard of the exams but you need to treat it as an entrance exam to becoming a pilot, as said before most of which you'll never use/see again.

As a former ATPL theory instructor I found the biggest hurdle for most UK students was basic maths. I strongly advise you to spend your time getting used to transposing formula eg. distance/speed/time, interpolating graphs & tables of data, basic mental arithmetic (in 2020 EASA introduced mental dead reckoning into the general navigation syllabus). Also some knowledge of physics gas laws would be useful. GCSE/secondary school level should be good enough, you don't need differential calculus! Years ago ATOs often used the first week to revise all this material but no doubt due to cost sadly no longer.

Best of luck.

rudestuff

Mitigated the financial risk... by going integrated 🤣🤣

Aviator172s

Do airlines care about integrated vs modular way?
I guess they care more about overall marks and 1st attempt success?

Christianb

Hi, I have 18 years and I want to be an airline pilot but I have some doubts....
First of all I'm from Italy, near Turin, and I don't know how the school is determinant to find an occupation in an airline after the study, I heard that there is a school in Jerez where is more easy to get a job for example.
Also I don't know how is the routine in this job in EU, in the short and in the long haul, and if is really hard in term of social life.
I am still not sure if this will be my future also because I don't know if I really like aviation at the point of flying everyday, I read some pilots who said to try to fly a little plane in a school and see if I enjoy it or not, what do you think?
Thank you.

richpea

For sure do this before you commit massive amounts of your (or your family's) money to trying to launch an aviation career. What's the point if you don't even know that you enjoy sitting in the front of the plane being responsible for your own life! *^^* My personal advice since you're very young would be to do a PPL first and figure out if you want to keep going after that.

rudestuff

You either want to be a pilot or you don't. Just give up mate.

Contact Approach

Pass me the popcorn when you’re done! 😂

flyingflamingo

Greetings everyone!

Just a brief background about me, I am a 22M Indian, with a Bachelors degree in hand, I have always wanted to become an airline pilot and had intended to join a cadet pilot program as well, I have cleared all required ground theory papers, medicals etc. in India, But due Covid the Cadet pilot programs have been discontinued and does not look like they will resume anytime soon, due to this I am considering going abroad, probably Canada or the US for my flight training, But as I dig deeper, since obviously it is a huge investment, what are your takes on the job environment lets say in the next 2 years in both the canadian aviation market as well as Indian Aviation? Should I work for now and wait for the cadet pilot program to restart? If I do go conventional and train in Canada, theres a possibility for being a CFI over there and gaining hours as well as some money, woudl that open up the US market as well for me after say 1500 hours? whats the safest way to go about it?