An Open Letter to 4 Forces AViation
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An Open Letter to 4 Forces AViation
I thought it important that you guys see this.
13 July 2001
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Sawbridgeworth
Herts
CM21 9PF
Four Forces Aviation
13 Newlands Drive
Poyle 14
Colnbrook
Berkshire
SL3 0DX
For Attention of the Managing Director
Dear Sir,
It has been brought to my attention that, during your MCC course, you make use of a 737 Video in which I act as Captain of a flight to Lisbon.
To my knowledge, you do not have permission of the copyright owner to use this video. Furthermore, you use extracts from the video as examples of “poor CRM”, despite the fact that a number of your students have pointed out that this video is an edited production.
I am angry at the way in which you publicly call my professionalism into question in this manner. I must insist that you cease this practice immediately, and I have instructed my solicitor to seek redress.
Yours truly,
Capt. John Mahon
[ 14 July 2001: Message edited by: Hamrah ]
13 July 2001
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Sawbridgeworth
Herts
CM21 9PF
Four Forces Aviation
13 Newlands Drive
Poyle 14
Colnbrook
Berkshire
SL3 0DX
For Attention of the Managing Director
Dear Sir,
It has been brought to my attention that, during your MCC course, you make use of a 737 Video in which I act as Captain of a flight to Lisbon.
To my knowledge, you do not have permission of the copyright owner to use this video. Furthermore, you use extracts from the video as examples of “poor CRM”, despite the fact that a number of your students have pointed out that this video is an edited production.
I am angry at the way in which you publicly call my professionalism into question in this manner. I must insist that you cease this practice immediately, and I have instructed my solicitor to seek redress.
Yours truly,
Capt. John Mahon
[ 14 July 2001: Message edited by: Hamrah ]
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If confirmed that this is the case, that is certainly a practice I would see as disgraceful from a modern training provider.
I hope the situation can be resolved and those responsible take heed. Thanks for posting it, let us know the response you receive.
SS
I hope the situation can be resolved and those responsible take heed. Thanks for posting it, let us know the response you receive.
SS
PPRuNe Handmaiden
Poor form 4 Forces.
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Not a good idea to breach copy right in the UK. Esp not when Both Video producers and Pilots read PPRUNE! Bad Luck 4 forces! 
I believe they do MCC on a Kingair sim? Whats the point? You might as well go to Bournemouth or OATS and do it on a Jet sim and get useful LOFT experience in.
I believe they do MCC on a Kingair sim? Whats the point? You might as well go to Bournemouth or OATS and do it on a Jet sim and get useful LOFT experience in.
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Oh dear. Copyright infringement and libellous comments, act together to form a double problem for 4 Forces, with a third and possibily even more serious problem in that it may drive prospective students to other, more ethical training providers. 
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There's one good thing about 4 Forces though : 4 months ago they lowered the MCC course fee to below £2,000, forcing other FTOs to do the same. So take advantage of that & go somewhere else (eg Multiflight : same price & no cameras !)
MF
MF
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I did an MCC with 4 Forces and can confirm that the course does include snippets from two ITVV videos - the GO 737-300 video used as am example of poor CRM and the Leisure767 video as an example of good CRM.
I must admit that the course was excellent, particularly considering it cost less than two grand. However, the criticism made of the 737 operation seemed very unfair considering the fact that the operation is not shown in "real time" - I know the guy at 4 Forces didn't edit the video but the video
has been edited for public consumption - as such all of the criticism made is done so out of context.
I must admit that the course was excellent, particularly considering it cost less than two grand. However, the criticism made of the 737 operation seemed very unfair considering the fact that the operation is not shown in "real time" - I know the guy at 4 Forces didn't edit the video but the video
has been edited for public consumption - as such all of the criticism made is done so out of context.
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That is absolutely outrageous. You know I will help if you want me to H.
What kind of management is it that allows itself to be bought into disrepute by infringeing copyright.
What kind of management is it that allows itself to be bought into disrepute by infringeing copyright.
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Naughty naughty.
Well they've been caught, go get 'em Hamrah. Do you have documented proof of their actions?
If so make sure you put the boot in hard, but be careful they don't counter claim, citing loss of business (etc.) due to this thread.
Good luck.
Well they've been caught, go get 'em Hamrah. Do you have documented proof of their actions?
If so make sure you put the boot in hard, but be careful they don't counter claim, citing loss of business (etc.) due to this thread.
Good luck.
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That should be O.K. Don't give too much away here though. the old phrase " a bird in the hand....." and all that!
keep us all posted. I can hear them squirming when they realise what this will do to their reputation. (What reputation some might say.)
Make the b****rs pay. I would be spitting mad if I was you, and an apology on Pprune might be a good start for them. (not holding my breath though.)
Do you have access to the unedited Video? If it comes to it you may have to prove that there was no "poor CRM." The Video would probably be of prime importance.
keep us all posted. I can hear them squirming when they realise what this will do to their reputation. (What reputation some might say.)
Make the b****rs pay. I would be spitting mad if I was you, and an apology on Pprune might be a good start for them. (not holding my breath though.)
Do you have access to the unedited Video? If it comes to it you may have to prove that there was no "poor CRM." The Video would probably be of prime importance.
I am really suprised they made such a crass decision. Make them pay and apologise publicly for goodness sakes.
WWW
WWW
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4Forces MAY have acted unprofessionally in this instance --- but the certainty is much more obvious on your part HAMRAH for printing a letter such as this in a public forum. Do you know for a fact that 4F doesn't have copyright authority? What if it were the act of an overzealous instructor and not the deliberate policy of the company? You have done a pretty good job of trashing their reputation --- based on not much fact. Things like this are best handled, in the first instance, out of the public eye. I can imagine that the letter would have received appropriate response, apologies, etc., without the theatrics of this forum. And no --- I have absolutely nothing to do with 4F.
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Sorry Hamrah, didn't realise you were the offended pilot (thought you were posting someone else's letter). That being said, with all due respect, think a letter to the MD first would have been more appropriate. Regards
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I don't know about you. But I bought this video from Transair for £ 30. My first cockpit video. As a budding APTL student, I wanted to know what it was like to fly a 737, gets some idea for a sim ride etc.
After watching the video, I felt I had wasted my money.
I am sure this is nothing to do with the crew, more likely poor editing. Or are all cockpit films like this.
No walkround checks, ops procedures or any detailsed explanation of the aircraft systems.
If anyone can recommmend a cockpit video that fits this bill, please let me know.
As for 4 forces. Well I already have my opinion on them, just from talking to them on the phone. Hence I'm going the PPSC + PAT route. Although still not sure on the MCC course. Modern EFIS like Multiflight or 727/L1011, ageing heavy at Bournemouth.
After watching the video, I felt I had wasted my money.
I am sure this is nothing to do with the crew, more likely poor editing. Or are all cockpit films like this.
No walkround checks, ops procedures or any detailsed explanation of the aircraft systems.
If anyone can recommmend a cockpit video that fits this bill, please let me know.
As for 4 forces. Well I already have my opinion on them, just from talking to them on the phone. Hence I'm going the PPSC + PAT route. Although still not sure on the MCC course. Modern EFIS like Multiflight or 727/L1011, ageing heavy at Bournemouth.