An Open Letter to 4 Forces AViation
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Lightning ace,
Get hold of the latest video from ITVV, the 'Virgin Atlantic Boeing 747-400'. The pre-flight planning part is thorough and lasts 20 minutes alone! The video also contains in-depth explanations of all systems. Pre-flight briefing, pushback, start-up, taxi, takeoff up to FL070 is all in real time! I guarantee you'll like it:
http://www.itvv.co.uk/7474p.html
As for the subject of this thread: "You've got balls mate!"
[ 16 July 2001: Message edited by: Superpilot ]
Get hold of the latest video from ITVV, the 'Virgin Atlantic Boeing 747-400'. The pre-flight planning part is thorough and lasts 20 minutes alone! The video also contains in-depth explanations of all systems. Pre-flight briefing, pushback, start-up, taxi, takeoff up to FL070 is all in real time! I guarantee you'll like it:
http://www.itvv.co.uk/7474p.html
As for the subject of this thread: "You've got balls mate!"
[ 16 July 2001: Message edited by: Superpilot ]
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A7E,
Not sure which of your posts to respond to, I presume you took some time to check YOUR facts , then put in a second post.
My view is this. The most likely students for 4 forces read this forum. I believe 4 Forces offer quite good value on their MCC course. I felt it necessary to make sure that readers of this forum are aware that 4 Forces did not have my permission to use my video in their course, and allowed, or condoned one of their instructors to thrash my reputation. The letter HAS been sent to the MD, and I await a response.
I will settle for an apology , and a contribution to the PPRuNe fund. Nick Grindley of ITVV can fight over the copyright issue.
H
Not sure which of your posts to respond to, I presume you took some time to check YOUR facts , then put in a second post.
My view is this. The most likely students for 4 forces read this forum. I believe 4 Forces offer quite good value on their MCC course. I felt it necessary to make sure that readers of this forum are aware that 4 Forces did not have my permission to use my video in their course, and allowed, or condoned one of their instructors to thrash my reputation. The letter HAS been sent to the MD, and I await a response.
I will settle for an apology , and a contribution to the PPRuNe fund. Nick Grindley of ITVV can fight over the copyright issue.
H
PPRuNe Knight in Shining Armour
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My feeling is that everyone will have an opinion of the video(s), but to use it in that way is well beyond decency (stronger words deleted!!)
I have the video, and I've enjoyed watching it immensley (more than once!), my only criticism is that the out-takes weren't tagged on at the end, eh Ham!!
I have the video, and I've enjoyed watching it immensley (more than once!), my only criticism is that the out-takes weren't tagged on at the end, eh Ham!!
Skycruiser,
Four Forces should have thought of that before dragging Hamrah's reputation through the mud with future airline FOs. A private apology done on the quiet would have done nothing to restore the reputation of the man who's permission was not sought in the first place. Live by the sword.....
Four Forces should have thought of that before dragging Hamrah's reputation through the mud with future airline FOs. A private apology done on the quiet would have done nothing to restore the reputation of the man who's permission was not sought in the first place. Live by the sword.....
If you attack a mans professional reputation in a fee paying public forum then you have committed the very worst of crimes in terms of slander... To breach copyright whilst doing so seems almost careless.
To be honest - and I know this is controvsial - I think 4 Fources a run by idiots ever since I heard Froud Whateverhisname spouting ballcks at the 1999 BALPA employment conference. Half of what he said was factually incorrect and his presentation was so heavily biased to his own commercial aims that I left early to get a good puke in.
These days people like Danny, Hamrah, myself and others are on hand to speak the truth...
Fry the barstand Mr H.
WWW
To be honest - and I know this is controvsial - I think 4 Fources a run by idiots ever since I heard Froud Whateverhisname spouting ballcks at the 1999 BALPA employment conference. Half of what he said was factually incorrect and his presentation was so heavily biased to his own commercial aims that I left early to get a good puke in.
These days people like Danny, Hamrah, myself and others are on hand to speak the truth...
Fry the barstand Mr H.
WWW
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GEEZ WWW, I hope the next time you make a minor transgression like turning to a wrong heading, taking a wrong taxi-way,skipping an item on a check-list, etc., that it doesn't get reported on .PPRUNE for the whole world to know about. Get a life.
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I just cancelled my holiday to enable me to stay near my PC to watch this one unfold.
WWW, where you under the influence when you put this together?
No, my only connection with 4 forces is someone who called them up only to not have my call returned as promised.
PS
WWW, where you under the influence when you put this together?
No, my only connection with 4 forces is someone who called them up only to not have my call returned as promised.
PS
Although it was a schoolboy error not to extend the common courtesy of contacting the crew concerned or, indeed, the video company regarding issues of copyright, I think some people are being a tad harsh on the course that 4 Forces provides.
Whilst not vindicating them for using the video involving Hamrah, it is of little consolation to know that it formed a minute part of a discussion concerning CRM. Indeed, there were several of us on the course that saw no problems with the way the flight was handled and commented as such.
As for the rest of the course, I think it is largely irrelevant on what type of simulator you train on - the meat of the course is designed to teach you the basics of how to work properly in a crew environment not how to learn to fly a big jet. To that end I thought that the tuition at 4F was fine...in fact they were extremely flexible and professional throughout the sim phase.
In summary, I sympathise with Hamrah's issue although I'm not sure it should be aired on this forum. As for WWW, I generally agree with most of your posts on PPRuNe, but your vitriolic post on this issue when you have very limited knowledge of the course is somewhat naiive.
Whilst not vindicating them for using the video involving Hamrah, it is of little consolation to know that it formed a minute part of a discussion concerning CRM. Indeed, there were several of us on the course that saw no problems with the way the flight was handled and commented as such.
As for the rest of the course, I think it is largely irrelevant on what type of simulator you train on - the meat of the course is designed to teach you the basics of how to work properly in a crew environment not how to learn to fly a big jet. To that end I thought that the tuition at 4F was fine...in fact they were extremely flexible and professional throughout the sim phase.
In summary, I sympathise with Hamrah's issue although I'm not sure it should be aired on this forum. As for WWW, I generally agree with most of your posts on PPRuNe, but your vitriolic post on this issue when you have very limited knowledge of the course is somewhat naiive.
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Similar to the above I did the 4 Forces MCC in November and saw the video. Do not recall that there was any criticism of the crew or that the CRM aspects of it were brought into question. It was one of various videos we saw and at least when i was there did not attract much comment at all.
Breach of copyright maybe but from my experience of various avaition training outfits such breaches would be commonplace if you look at the video library!! Indeed the same can be said for much of the written course material as well as the same material is passed around the world. This video was produced for screening on TV, ie public consumption so 4 forces could be excused for using it for training purposes in my view.
Second issue is that if they have been bagging Hamrah and he has complained then they owe him an apology.
As for 4 forces i went there because they were the cheapest and found it a good course with very experienced staff and did learn a bit from it. Did not think the type of sim on this course was a big issue, the King air was as good as anything i guess. My only critism was that the theory where the video was shown did drag on somewhat, may have been asleep during discussion on it !!!
Breach of copyright maybe but from my experience of various avaition training outfits such breaches would be commonplace if you look at the video library!! Indeed the same can be said for much of the written course material as well as the same material is passed around the world. This video was produced for screening on TV, ie public consumption so 4 forces could be excused for using it for training purposes in my view.
Second issue is that if they have been bagging Hamrah and he has complained then they owe him an apology.
As for 4 forces i went there because they were the cheapest and found it a good course with very experienced staff and did learn a bit from it. Did not think the type of sim on this course was a big issue, the King air was as good as anything i guess. My only critism was that the theory where the video was shown did drag on somewhat, may have been asleep during discussion on it !!!
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Have to agree with Skycruiser and Static Discharge on this one.
Hamrah, your reaction is overkill to say the least. You could at least have given them the opportunity to reply before using this public forum for your own personal means.
With your decision to write this 'open letter', let's just hope you are 100 % sure they [Bdon't][/B] have copyright permission. - Either that or you are sure that you and Danny have good solicitors......
What were you expecting when putting this on the forum ? - That everyone was going to agree with you ?! Oh well, that's one of the risks of doing it I suppose - It sometimes backfires.
I agree that showing the video without (allegedly) having copyright permission is wrong - I just don't agree with your methods. As far as them commenting on the vid for their CRM class, then I can understand your reaction, but I don't see the problem - As the first-hand witnesses state, it was just to open the debate on CRM.
Or are you going to attack their free-speech ?
WWW
I am shocked.
I have read many of your posts over the years and admire your dedication and hard work.
However, your last post is beyond belief
1) All your comments about 4 forces not having copyright are based (like for eveyone) on 2nd hand information that you acquired a couple of days ago.
As Static Discharge said, are you 100 % sure that 4 forces don't have copyright permission ?
2)
- Funny that, I remember reading your post about that conference (the one where they asked you to stand up) and I seem to remember you stating (along with many other PPRuNers), that 4 forces gave a good speech....
Oh well, I guess it's a case of you now knowing what side your bread is buttered ......
3)
Hallelujah - We all wait with baited breath oh chosen one
Brit
Hamrah, your reaction is overkill to say the least. You could at least have given them the opportunity to reply before using this public forum for your own personal means.
With your decision to write this 'open letter', let's just hope you are 100 % sure they [Bdon't][/B] have copyright permission. - Either that or you are sure that you and Danny have good solicitors......
What were you expecting when putting this on the forum ? - That everyone was going to agree with you ?! Oh well, that's one of the risks of doing it I suppose - It sometimes backfires.
I agree that showing the video without (allegedly) having copyright permission is wrong - I just don't agree with your methods. As far as them commenting on the vid for their CRM class, then I can understand your reaction, but I don't see the problem - As the first-hand witnesses state, it was just to open the debate on CRM.
Or are you going to attack their free-speech ?
WWW
I am shocked.
I have read many of your posts over the years and admire your dedication and hard work.
However, your last post is beyond belief
1) All your comments about 4 forces not having copyright are based (like for eveyone) on 2nd hand information that you acquired a couple of days ago.
As Static Discharge said, are you 100 % sure that 4 forces don't have copyright permission ?
2)
To be honest - and I know this is controvsial - I think 4 Fources a run by idiots ever since I heard Froud Whateverhisname spouting ballcks at the 1999 BALPA employment conference. Half of what he said was factually incorrect and his presentation was so heavily biased to his own commercial aims that I left early to get a good puke in.
Oh well, I guess it's a case of you now knowing what side your bread is buttered ......
3)
These days people like Danny, Hamrah, myself and others are on hand to speak the truth...
Brit
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WWW
I have no intention of joining in the debate about copyright etc., but come on WWW. I have, politely I hope, pointed out a few times in this forum the error in your ways of claiming statements to be true when in fact your sources of information have been incorrect. I don't doubt that you usually think you are stating truthful fact, but most people here realise that what we hear around the bazaars is still just rumour and it is a little arrogant for someone to claim that they are hear to always speak the truth!
Furthermore, I was a little disappointed to read your vitriolic outburst ref four forces in this thread. A sometimes purveyor of duff information you maybe but I always thought you had more maturity and integrity than your post would indicate.
Were you perhaps on the outside of a large helping of fun juice when you wrote it?
These days people like Danny, Hamrah, myself and others are on hand to speak the truth...
Furthermore, I was a little disappointed to read your vitriolic outburst ref four forces in this thread. A sometimes purveyor of duff information you maybe but I always thought you had more maturity and integrity than your post would indicate.
Were you perhaps on the outside of a large helping of fun juice when you wrote it?
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I would like to take the opportunity to add to this thread and speak about 4 Forces with qualification. What I am about to say is not a biased view but my opinion and based on fact.
There has been an abundance of attacks on PPRUNE against 4 Forces, a small and lets keep this in perspective, very small amount have had some degree of truth, but then if you think about it, no school is perfect. After all there is the human element and we will all push the parameters and all hope we can get away with it.
I will say now, hand on heart that 4 Forces do not deserve the (I am looking for a word to accurately describe what I am thinking) utter contempt of this feeling towards them.
What Frode and his team are doing and continuously improving is a credit to the training industry. Yes they have made mistakes, but in the words of the old saying, "Let he who has not sinned cast the first stone", is there anyone out there who could?
They have some of the best Instructors in the industry there, and believe me their dedication is beyond reproach.
They have again some of the best facilities.
They are improving, and gaining ground on their books, not before time, but still a big improvement.
Lets all remember as well people, they aren't bad when it comes to prices and we are all looking for a few advantages there, aren't we.
I am going to make a request to you all. Why don't we all let Frode and the team at 4 Forces get on with the important issue of training Pilots. A difficult enough task, without all of this to concern themselves about. Don't forget, when you attack a school, especially in this manner, it's the individuals who you hurt and they don't deserve it.
Of course, if you have genuine grievance then act upon it, in the correct manner. If however, as most of this is "bringing out your dirty washing" let it rest.
Things may now further improve with the departure of a certain team who did their best to hold 4 Forces back.
[ 23 July 2001: Message edited by: gazelle507 ]
There has been an abundance of attacks on PPRUNE against 4 Forces, a small and lets keep this in perspective, very small amount have had some degree of truth, but then if you think about it, no school is perfect. After all there is the human element and we will all push the parameters and all hope we can get away with it.
I will say now, hand on heart that 4 Forces do not deserve the (I am looking for a word to accurately describe what I am thinking) utter contempt of this feeling towards them.
What Frode and his team are doing and continuously improving is a credit to the training industry. Yes they have made mistakes, but in the words of the old saying, "Let he who has not sinned cast the first stone", is there anyone out there who could?
They have some of the best Instructors in the industry there, and believe me their dedication is beyond reproach.
They have again some of the best facilities.
They are improving, and gaining ground on their books, not before time, but still a big improvement.
Lets all remember as well people, they aren't bad when it comes to prices and we are all looking for a few advantages there, aren't we.
I am going to make a request to you all. Why don't we all let Frode and the team at 4 Forces get on with the important issue of training Pilots. A difficult enough task, without all of this to concern themselves about. Don't forget, when you attack a school, especially in this manner, it's the individuals who you hurt and they don't deserve it.
Of course, if you have genuine grievance then act upon it, in the correct manner. If however, as most of this is "bringing out your dirty washing" let it rest.
Things may now further improve with the departure of a certain team who did their best to hold 4 Forces back.
[ 23 July 2001: Message edited by: gazelle507 ]
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Has any of the later contributors bothered to re-read Hamrah's letter? They should. It is quite simple actually, stating what happened, no more no less.
Now, some pompous self righteous know it all's come in with posts - holding their hands up in horror and try to denegrate a genuine letter from a much respected Captain, never mind that he is a PPRuNe Captain, that speaks of copyright and bringing his own professionalism into disrepute. It's alright if that company does that is it? Well not in my book it isn't, and the sooner people get off their own mysterious bandwagons the better.
If you don't support Hamrah, he won't mind but if you want to belittle him, I mind! I know the man, and I was in the business far too long to know that there are establishments in every facet of the industry who quite simply exploit other parts of it - that includes people. I didn't like it then and I don't like it now.
My advice is to start recognising the nitty gritty, and stop criticising the reason for it.
Now, some pompous self righteous know it all's come in with posts - holding their hands up in horror and try to denegrate a genuine letter from a much respected Captain, never mind that he is a PPRuNe Captain, that speaks of copyright and bringing his own professionalism into disrepute. It's alright if that company does that is it? Well not in my book it isn't, and the sooner people get off their own mysterious bandwagons the better.
If you don't support Hamrah, he won't mind but if you want to belittle him, I mind! I know the man, and I was in the business far too long to know that there are establishments in every facet of the industry who quite simply exploit other parts of it - that includes people. I didn't like it then and I don't like it now.
My advice is to start recognising the nitty gritty, and stop criticising the reason for it.
Thread Starter
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OK,
I'll clarify this one more time.
1) 4 Forces do NOT have permission of the producer of this video to use it in this manner (yes, I am 100% sure)
2) The Video in question was used to demonstrate a percieved example of "poor CRM". A different video from the same production company was used to show an example of "good" CRM.
3)My letter to 4 Forces was posted here to reach the audience most likely to have partaken of MCC courses with 4 Forces, to make them aware that I do not appreciate my professionalism being brought into question in this manner
4) If 4 Forces would care to apologise, and make a contribution to the PPRuNe fund, I will happily walk away from it all. The copyright owners of the video might have other ideas
H
I'll clarify this one more time.
1) 4 Forces do NOT have permission of the producer of this video to use it in this manner (yes, I am 100% sure)
2) The Video in question was used to demonstrate a percieved example of "poor CRM". A different video from the same production company was used to show an example of "good" CRM.
3)My letter to 4 Forces was posted here to reach the audience most likely to have partaken of MCC courses with 4 Forces, to make them aware that I do not appreciate my professionalism being brought into question in this manner
4) If 4 Forces would care to apologise, and make a contribution to the PPRuNe fund, I will happily walk away from it all. The copyright owners of the video might have other ideas
H
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How magnanimous are those that believe this matter is of little consequence and that Hamrah has overreacted . This begs the question would YOU be so magnanimous if it was YOUR reputation being slurred ? As this is a Wannabe forum I can only assume that these persons MUST be young and naive. .
For any wannabe starting out in this industry, a little piece of advice. As a professional pilot your reputation is EVERYTHING ! You are what your peers believe you to be !! (rightly or wrongly !) If you allow someone, indeed anyone, to question or undermine your reputation then you must deal with it immediately and harshly. If you remain quiet it can, and will, be seen as some form of consent.
Hamrah, IMHO, you are being magnanimous in seeking ONLY a public apology. I am only astounded that one hasn't been forthcoming already.
In cases like this; use a cricket bat to swat a mosquito.
Good Luck Hamrah.
. For any wannabe starting out in this industry, a little piece of advice. As a professional pilot your reputation is EVERYTHING ! You are what your peers believe you to be !! (rightly or wrongly !) If you allow someone, indeed anyone, to question or undermine your reputation then you must deal with it immediately and harshly. If you remain quiet it can, and will, be seen as some form of consent.
Hamrah, IMHO, you are being magnanimous in seeking ONLY a public apology. I am only astounded that one hasn't been forthcoming already.
In cases like this; use a cricket bat to swat a mosquito.
Good Luck Hamrah.