An Open Letter to 4 Forces AViation
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Hamrah
I stumbled across this thread by accident, but would like to offer you my support in your endeavours.
Some years ago in my consulting business, a client publicy defamed my business partner.
We took similar action to yours and received a full retraction and apology.
It is not a trivial matter when a professional reputation is called into question and it requires a serious response.
Best of luck
I stumbled across this thread by accident, but would like to offer you my support in your endeavours.
Some years ago in my consulting business, a client publicy defamed my business partner.
We took similar action to yours and received a full retraction and apology.
It is not a trivial matter when a professional reputation is called into question and it requires a serious response.
Best of luck
My dislike of Frode stems 90% from his 1999 BALPA speech. He calmly stood there and told the whole audience - even when cross questioned - that you simply would not get an interview with any airline unless you had an MCC. This was, and remains, a lie. Coming from a man adrently selling MCC courses this was a unpalatable. The bulk of his time was devoted to promoting his own commercial organisation and waxing lyrical about his somewhat limited new KingAir sim.
I have noted with some interest - as have others in the aviation training industry - the staff he has recruited to his company. I am glad you found them experienced and capable instructors.
This latest action of so crassly, ridicuously and cowboyishly attacking a highly respected pilots professional conduct in a *classroom* no less (I can bearly believe it still) only served to heighten my towering low regard for all things 4 Fources.
Perhaps you feel it was pompous of me to state that these days PPRuNe is around to speak the truth.
I make no apology at all for that sentiment. Perhaps you do not remember what things were like back in say 1996/7? You had some glossy brochures to read, an out of touch old chap down at the flying club and perhaps the Clive Hughes book to read about how to become an airline pilot. You really were a babe in the wood and many people got shafted as a result. Things like NVQ tax relief were withdrawn and thousands didn't even know it was going to happen and missed registration... People heard people like Frode at seminars and believed every word - they had to.
As least now you get a counterpoint here and if thats incorrect someone soon jumps in to say so - if its me or anyone else talking rubbish.
I'm glad lots of you had a good training experience at 4 Fources - I know plenty of people who have trained there and emailed me about the experience.
That fact I understand will breed loyalty to the organisation - it always does - but that does not stop me thinking the 1999 speech and abusing Hamrah were both crass abominations indicating something negative about the organisation in question.
Cheers,
WWW
I have noted with some interest - as have others in the aviation training industry - the staff he has recruited to his company. I am glad you found them experienced and capable instructors.
This latest action of so crassly, ridicuously and cowboyishly attacking a highly respected pilots professional conduct in a *classroom* no less (I can bearly believe it still) only served to heighten my towering low regard for all things 4 Fources.
Perhaps you feel it was pompous of me to state that these days PPRuNe is around to speak the truth.
I make no apology at all for that sentiment. Perhaps you do not remember what things were like back in say 1996/7? You had some glossy brochures to read, an out of touch old chap down at the flying club and perhaps the Clive Hughes book to read about how to become an airline pilot. You really were a babe in the wood and many people got shafted as a result. Things like NVQ tax relief were withdrawn and thousands didn't even know it was going to happen and missed registration... People heard people like Frode at seminars and believed every word - they had to.
As least now you get a counterpoint here and if thats incorrect someone soon jumps in to say so - if its me or anyone else talking rubbish.
I'm glad lots of you had a good training experience at 4 Fources - I know plenty of people who have trained there and emailed me about the experience.
That fact I understand will breed loyalty to the organisation - it always does - but that does not stop me thinking the 1999 speech and abusing Hamrah were both crass abominations indicating something negative about the organisation in question.
Cheers,
WWW
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Hamrahs decision to respond with a public letter does at least allow 4 Forces the opportunity to defend/explain their actions/position.
4 Forces reported negative portrayal of Hamrah in a classroom environment did not allow him that courtesy.
The lack of a response from 4 Forces is puzzling. To allow this thread to continue without a response would suggest that either they have no defence, or that they do not stay abreast of their reputation on PPrune.
As I’d imagine that a large proportion of its potential clients would read Pprune, neither of these stances would suggest a high level of business acumen.
regards
4 Forces reported negative portrayal of Hamrah in a classroom environment did not allow him that courtesy.
The lack of a response from 4 Forces is puzzling. To allow this thread to continue without a response would suggest that either they have no defence, or that they do not stay abreast of their reputation on PPrune.
As I’d imagine that a large proportion of its potential clients would read Pprune, neither of these stances would suggest a high level of business acumen.
regards
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Polar. One finds oneself with too much time on one's hands. Any port in a storm don't you know. In any event, I am going to do my ATPL exams over the next 2 years or so and shall then become the world's leading test pilot. I look forward to much interesting intercourse with you chaps.
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Obviously a raw nerve there WWW. Hope it doesn't spiral dive into a slanging match - I'm sure it won't. Anyway, no-one from Four Forces has seen fit to post a reply, so I guess we'll all just sit back and watch results. 
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WWW - let me touch the hem of your garment next time you are passing 
I did Four Forces MCC course and saw said video, but hardly any comment was passed upon it by the instructor of the ground school. Mind you the "instructor" was so appalling the whole class asked for a portion of their money back. Frode squirmed out of that and wrote us letters offering us some "retraining" which, surprisingly, never materialised. Very much got the immpression that money rules at FF.
I did Four Forces MCC course and saw said video, but hardly any comment was passed upon it by the instructor of the ground school. Mind you the "instructor" was so appalling the whole class asked for a portion of their money back. Frode squirmed out of that and wrote us letters offering us some "retraining" which, surprisingly, never materialised. Very much got the immpression that money rules at FF.
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One hesitates to ask this question, as it is undoubtedly terribly bad form, but can someone who has seen the video confirm that Hamrahs CRM is indeed crap (or not).
The public has right to know...
The public has right to know...
You can carry my bags as well if you like
Yes Lord Archer I am indeed blessed.
WWW
Yes Lord Archer I am indeed blessed.
WWW
I'm with WWW. I too saw Frode's thinly veiled advertisement for 4 Forces' MCC course.
He used a combination of speculation & very questionable assumptions to pressure those listening into doing the MCC at his company.
He used a combination of speculation & very questionable assumptions to pressure those listening into doing the MCC at his company.
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MOR,
If you want to come and fly with me, you can decide yourself.
But if someone wants to base an opinion on an edited video, I might have an objection.
And if someone wants to make money on it, I have very serious objection.
Cheers
H
If you want to come and fly with me, you can decide yourself.
But if someone wants to base an opinion on an edited video, I might have an objection.
And if someone wants to make money on it, I have very serious objection.
Cheers
H
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I can confirm that the video featuring john mahon has been used repeatedly and with some glee,as an example of "shoddy " crm. by certain individuals at 4 Forces.
Most of our course discussed the comments in private and found them distasteful and somewhat eccentric. I have no idea of any personal agendas at work in the background, but judging by the glee with which the comments were made in the classroom, it would not surprise me if some were evident.
Lest you imagine that my course was a solitary example, it is not. This could therefore have been going on for several months, with hundreds of Professional Pilots going away with a potentially negative impression of a fellow pilot.
No course is perfect, no system is perfect, and there were many positive aspects to the 4 forces course and they did a very good job
in the Sim.
All the more reason to cease the sniping.
Very silly.
Most of our course discussed the comments in private and found them distasteful and somewhat eccentric. I have no idea of any personal agendas at work in the background, but judging by the glee with which the comments were made in the classroom, it would not surprise me if some were evident.
Lest you imagine that my course was a solitary example, it is not. This could therefore have been going on for several months, with hundreds of Professional Pilots going away with a potentially negative impression of a fellow pilot.
No course is perfect, no system is perfect, and there were many positive aspects to the 4 forces course and they did a very good job
in the Sim.
All the more reason to cease the sniping.
Very silly.
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Calm down H, it was a gentle wind-up. I agree using edited footage to make a point is bogus. I'm sure everybody is guilty of bad CRM from time to time, even you! Oh OK then maybe not you... BTW can I have a job please...
BTW can I have a job please...
Dancing with the devil, going with the flow... it's all a game to me.
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Hamrah,
For those of us who don't really know you personally, would you be so kind as to let us know what response you get from 4F - if any?
I too wish you the best in getting an apology from them (very gentlemanly to only ask that of them!). Disgracefull that they should use that bloody good video in a negative way against your professional reputation.
Go for it H,
VFE.
For those of us who don't really know you personally, would you be so kind as to let us know what response you get from 4F - if any?
I too wish you the best in getting an apology from them (very gentlemanly to only ask that of them!). Disgracefull that they should use that bloody good video in a negative way against your professional reputation.
Go for it H,
VFE.
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As I remember it copyright is not an issue when the document in issue is being used for education purposes. This stems from otherwise copyright requests from schools would be huge, but is relevant in this case.
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I still think that Hamrah was right in putting the letter on PPRuNe to inform people of the situation in hand.
As usual there will be a few people with differing opinions as to the correct way of going about it. But if Hamrah did keep it out of the public eye and just deal direct with 4 Forces then maybe the situation might have been resolved between them. However, Hamrah posted this because he wanted to let people know that 4 Forces were using a video without permission and highlighting bad CRM.
This therefore shows Hamrah in a bad light, and I doubt very much that 4 Forces would have sent a letter out to all those who have attended their MCC course and made them aware that they should have not slated him in thier course. Therefore I 100% agree with Hamrah in the way he went about this. Until 4 Forces apologise publicly the matter should not close.
Best of luck Hamrah
Homer
As usual there will be a few people with differing opinions as to the correct way of going about it. But if Hamrah did keep it out of the public eye and just deal direct with 4 Forces then maybe the situation might have been resolved between them. However, Hamrah posted this because he wanted to let people know that 4 Forces were using a video without permission and highlighting bad CRM.
This therefore shows Hamrah in a bad light, and I doubt very much that 4 Forces would have sent a letter out to all those who have attended their MCC course and made them aware that they should have not slated him in thier course. Therefore I 100% agree with Hamrah in the way he went about this. Until 4 Forces apologise publicly the matter should not close.
Best of luck Hamrah
Homer