An Open Letter to 4 Forces AViation
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 144
Likes: 0
From: Yorks
Sorry to spoil fun and I do sympathise with JM as I was the victim of something similar- nothing to do with aviation- when I was working for a company under contract.
BTW I have no connection with Fourforces or any other Foreskins. The point is that when you work, supply or, even, shop or eat anywhere, you are often accepting that you have agreed to them filming you and retaining 'intellectual property rights' to your image or behaviour.
The point is, therefore:
How/when were you filmed?
For whom did you work/train at the time?
Had you signed, or given, away your rights?
This story is a BIG warning. Little do most realise that you may be training or working, innocently and with responsibilty (you believe) only to your instructor or boss, but you may then be featured in a video as an example of an incompetent student,instructor, engineer, pilot etc.
The other problem I discovered is that, unless you are a big pop-star, professional, politician or public figure, it is difficult to identify and quantify any damage.
BTW I have no connection with Fourforces or any other Foreskins. The point is that when you work, supply or, even, shop or eat anywhere, you are often accepting that you have agreed to them filming you and retaining 'intellectual property rights' to your image or behaviour.
The point is, therefore:
How/when were you filmed?
For whom did you work/train at the time?
Had you signed, or given, away your rights?
This story is a BIG warning. Little do most realise that you may be training or working, innocently and with responsibilty (you believe) only to your instructor or boss, but you may then be featured in a video as an example of an incompetent student,instructor, engineer, pilot etc.
The other problem I discovered is that, unless you are a big pop-star, professional, politician or public figure, it is difficult to identify and quantify any damage.
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 359
Likes: 10
From: London
How/when were you filmed?
For whom did you work/train at the time?
Had you signed, or given, away your rights?
It is simply not true that this company have a right to use the footage. Any intellectualy property rights or waiver is the property of Hamrah or the company that commissioned the filming. This MCC company has no right to show the footage (for a commercial venture) without first contacting the owners (ie Hamrah or the filming company).
Sagey
For whom did you work/train at the time?
Had you signed, or given, away your rights?
It is simply not true that this company have a right to use the footage. Any intellectualy property rights or waiver is the property of Hamrah or the company that commissioned the filming. This MCC company has no right to show the footage (for a commercial venture) without first contacting the owners (ie Hamrah or the filming company).
Sagey
Joined: Oct 1999
Aviation Qualifications: ATCO
Posts: 1,245
Likes: 141
From: the dark side
Sagey I belive Query is correct, once you have agreed to be filmed/photographed recorded and signed a contract to that effect then there is little redress as I understand it. Disregarding the copyright issue for a moment, if the editing of the film is such that 'poor' performance of an individual may be perceived then that should be adressed through the producer/s. However having already signed something which would probably preclude any editorial influence, H may be in a no win situation there. As for using the film in a compare and contrast exercise, again the editing may be an issue as well as the actual performance of the individuals concerned.
On the copyright issue there may well be a case to answer, it will depend on how much money people want to spend to enforce this, and what return it will bring them both in 'good will' and financial terms. There will still not be any protection from someone saying go and buy/borrow/look at video's A and B, on video A you can see X whereas on video B you can see Y which is much better because blah blah blah... This takes us back to the beginning to be sure of what you are signing up for, and the potential downside as well. And I know it's easy to be wise after the event!
PS
I have no connection with any of the companies or individuals in this thread.
On the copyright issue there may well be a case to answer, it will depend on how much money people want to spend to enforce this, and what return it will bring them both in 'good will' and financial terms. There will still not be any protection from someone saying go and buy/borrow/look at video's A and B, on video A you can see X whereas on video B you can see Y which is much better because blah blah blah... This takes us back to the beginning to be sure of what you are signing up for, and the potential downside as well. And I know it's easy to be wise after the event!
PS
I have no connection with any of the companies or individuals in this thread.
Thread Starter
Joined: Dec 1997
Posts: 950
Likes: 1
From: Penarth South Wales
I think I can answer both of these points. I agreed to participate in a "From the flightdeck" video in co-operation with ITVV, a commercial company who produce these videos for entertainment (anyone who has seen the outtakes, know the entertainment value) The video was edited, with my permission obviously, by ITVV and then sold. My participation was voluntary.
The subsequesnt use of this video for training and commercial purposes by 4F , I believe is in breach of the copyright published on the video. Furthermore, to use the content of the video out of context is, I believe, both unprofessional and possibly defamatory.
Hence my complaint.
The subsequesnt use of this video for training and commercial purposes by 4F , I believe is in breach of the copyright published on the video. Furthermore, to use the content of the video out of context is, I believe, both unprofessional and possibly defamatory.
Hence my complaint.
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 144
Likes: 0
From: Yorks
This video has obviously provided plenty of 'entertainment', but not in the way you had assumed.
There may a breach of conditions/copyright and I am not defending what has been done but you say you gave some sort of permission, so wouldn't compromise be better and less risky than litigation?
There may a breach of conditions/copyright and I am not defending what has been done but you say you gave some sort of permission, so wouldn't compromise be better and less risky than litigation?
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 359
Likes: 10
From: London
Whatever the legal loop holes etc, and I am certainly not a lawyer, you do seem to have a firm ground of complaint and all we can do is wish you luck and hope that the correct outcome and subsequent apology is swift and hassle free.
Best of luck mate.
Sagey
Best of luck mate.
Sagey
Guest
Posts: n/a
Query
I think that you have missed the point here.
Hamrah is not complaining about ITTV's use of the video, but rather a third party's.
As it would appear from Hamrah's comments that the third party has not licensed this material, then its use would appear certainly to be breach of copyright and there is also a question of potential defamation to be answereds by Four Forces.
The point about educational use is likely to prove a red herring in this context; universities and others use this argument in the context of general copyright, but the ITTV video apparently has a specific copyright notice restricting it's use.
John Fletcher Moulton commented on ethical behaviour that "It is the domain of obedience to the unenforceable"
In this instance the matter would appear to be enforceable and if Hamrah believes that there is an absence of ethics then I support his action in doing something about it.
I am not a professional pilot, but I am a professional and believe that we must support each other in maintaining correct standards of behaviour in commercial life.
I think that you have missed the point here.
Hamrah is not complaining about ITTV's use of the video, but rather a third party's.
As it would appear from Hamrah's comments that the third party has not licensed this material, then its use would appear certainly to be breach of copyright and there is also a question of potential defamation to be answereds by Four Forces.
The point about educational use is likely to prove a red herring in this context; universities and others use this argument in the context of general copyright, but the ITTV video apparently has a specific copyright notice restricting it's use.
John Fletcher Moulton commented on ethical behaviour that "It is the domain of obedience to the unenforceable"
In this instance the matter would appear to be enforceable and if Hamrah believes that there is an absence of ethics then I support his action in doing something about it.
I am not a professional pilot, but I am a professional and believe that we must support each other in maintaining correct standards of behaviour in commercial life.
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 683
Likes: 34
From: Over here but sometimes over there.
As the video in question has been edited,I cannot see how 4forces can claim it`s a bad example of CRM.We don`t know what bits have been edited out.Therefore I think it is a bad call on their part.
Hamrah I wish you luck.
Hamrah I wish you luck.
Joined: Sep 1999
Posts: 5,552
Likes: 25
From: ME
Lets just forget about the Hamrah part of this…….
The video explicitly shows Capt JM who was the chief pilot of GO, for anyone to infer that this gentleman was not practicing good CRM is damaging to Capt JM’s reputation and may have had a direct impact on his future job prospects and his present reputation!
Is this considered SLANDER?
Mutt
The video explicitly shows Capt JM who was the chief pilot of GO, for anyone to infer that this gentleman was not practicing good CRM is damaging to Capt JM’s reputation and may have had a direct impact on his future job prospects and his present reputation!
Is this considered SLANDER?
Mutt
Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 36
Likes: 0
From: Over the water
Either way, it is a defamation of Hamrah's professionism and he is quite justified in asking for an apology. I think that 4F are getting off lightly and wonder if it was one of us would we be so gracious about it?
Hamrah, I wish you the best of luck. Let us know if or when you have some news.
VTOL
Hamrah, I wish you the best of luck. Let us know if or when you have some news.
VTOL
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 50
Likes: 0
From: u.k,
hamrah, 1st post to your last reply is 11 days!, with no indication of any apology or indication that they have ceased using the said video. you are indeed a patient and benevolent fellow. i believe that the use of the video was not malicious, as from your magnanimous replies you believe also, but worringly shows a quite unbelievable capacity for naivety, in an industry where mistakes can be far reaching, and at the worst iredeemable. your posting was both just, and worthy.
4 forces need to do something, and quickly, there are lots of potential customers on this site!
hamrah, even edited it seems you still look good!,4 forces unedited.......?
i,m sure you'll get the result you deserve!
4 forces need to do something, and quickly, there are lots of potential customers on this site!
hamrah, even edited it seems you still look good!,4 forces unedited.......?
i,m sure you'll get the result you deserve!
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 1,543
Likes: 10
From: Samsonite Avenue
I heard that there is a fairly large aviation organisation (being very very vague for obvious reasons!) that is currently trying to take legal action against 4 Forces.
Nuff said
Hamrah, looks as if you and ITVV are not the only ones!
MG
Nuff said
Hamrah, looks as if you and ITVV are not the only ones!
MG
Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 16
Likes: 0
From: Scarborough, North Yorkshire, UK
Sorry for the late posting here – holidays etc.
I can confirm that Four Forces Aviation DO NOT have our permission to show any ITVV videos. Our copyright is very clear at the beginning of each video.
I have today sent a fax to the MD at Four Forces asking for his comments on this serious situation – I will keep you posted.
I take a very serious view on this matter and will back Hamrah all the way. If Four Forces make a public apology to Hamrah then I am happy – if not we will take whatever action is necessary.
Regards
VHS
aka Nick Grindley
Managing Director
Intelligent Television and Video Limited
I can confirm that Four Forces Aviation DO NOT have our permission to show any ITVV videos. Our copyright is very clear at the beginning of each video.
I have today sent a fax to the MD at Four Forces asking for his comments on this serious situation – I will keep you posted.
I take a very serious view on this matter and will back Hamrah all the way. If Four Forces make a public apology to Hamrah then I am happy – if not we will take whatever action is necessary.
Regards
VHS
aka Nick Grindley
Managing Director
Intelligent Television and Video Limited
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 68
Likes: 0
From: San Diego - now Paris
You guys are sure hard on a tiny company that has provided great service at low cost to a very large number of wannabees. (I am not associated in any way with 4F.) As someone said earlier, I would like to visit a flight school now that in some way or other isn't violating copyrights, etc.
As for bruising a pilot's ego ---- don't you think we are judged much more critically by 100's of people every time a "firm" landing is made.
Finally, as for someone's career being damaged by some lose comments at an MCC course --- start drinking decaf. I can think of no other profession where one's career is as protected as that of a pilot. You get your certificate and a seniority number --- and then you can only be threatened by 3 things: 1) economic crash 2) medical act of God, 3) GROSS misconduct. I find it hard to believe that anyone's career/reputation could be damaged by this incident. Indeed, the comments on this thread show (rightly so) almost universal support of the crew involved --- and 4F are suffering from a self-inflicted wound. I think we should lighten up a bit and not take ourselves so seriously.
As for bruising a pilot's ego ---- don't you think we are judged much more critically by 100's of people every time a "firm" landing is made.
Finally, as for someone's career being damaged by some lose comments at an MCC course --- start drinking decaf. I can think of no other profession where one's career is as protected as that of a pilot. You get your certificate and a seniority number --- and then you can only be threatened by 3 things: 1) economic crash 2) medical act of God, 3) GROSS misconduct. I find it hard to believe that anyone's career/reputation could be damaged by this incident. Indeed, the comments on this thread show (rightly so) almost universal support of the crew involved --- and 4F are suffering from a self-inflicted wound. I think we should lighten up a bit and not take ourselves so seriously.
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 1,016
Likes: 0
From: London,Bucharest...wherever...
'Hard' !?
As a professional organisation 4 Forces should be well aware of the UK legislation and position on copyright and the using of media for commercial use and public viewing...not the 'private viewing' licence with which no doubt the video is sold (noted on the packaging and lead in to the video probably)...
...And as for the question of professional conduct with regard to the misrepresentation of a well known and respected member of the uk aviation community then this shows a lack of intelligence and personal respect!
As a professional organisation 4 Forces should be well aware of the UK legislation and position on copyright and the using of media for commercial use and public viewing...not the 'private viewing' licence with which no doubt the video is sold (noted on the packaging and lead in to the video probably)...
...And as for the question of professional conduct with regard to the misrepresentation of a well known and respected member of the uk aviation community then this shows a lack of intelligence and personal respect!
Jet Blast Rat
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 2,081
Likes: 0
From: Sarfend-on-Sea
Static
Size of company is irrelevant. An individual can be taken to court over copyright or defamation matters.
You are also completely wrong, I believe, about the protection of a pilot's career. I can think of no other career, where career progression is more dependent upon image. If a pilot is seen to be unprofessional, he will not get the jobs he wants. Airlines cannot be criticised for this, as they live or die by image. In an industry delivering a service that is as widely feared as flying, and where accidents have such an impact that they are publicised so widely the image of safety and professionalism must be maintained at all cost. Hence the bans on drinking in uniform, for example.
Size of company is irrelevant. An individual can be taken to court over copyright or defamation matters.
You are also completely wrong, I believe, about the protection of a pilot's career. I can think of no other career, where career progression is more dependent upon image. If a pilot is seen to be unprofessional, he will not get the jobs he wants. Airlines cannot be criticised for this, as they live or die by image. In an industry delivering a service that is as widely feared as flying, and where accidents have such an impact that they are publicised so widely the image of safety and professionalism must be maintained at all cost. Hence the bans on drinking in uniform, for example.