CABAIR - General discussion for those involved.
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 238
Likes: 0
From: UK
goldeneaglepilot
Quite right. They are trying to appear to do the right thing - everyone becomes accountable, you split the accountability, nobody is accountable.
This is commonplace in public service these days, a legacy of the 'let's make ourselves cute and cuddly', HR driven platitudinous Tony Blair PC brigade nonsense era.
I can feel my blood pressure rising...
yet it clearly made a huge mistake by issuing a TRTO to a dormant company.
This is commonplace in public service these days, a legacy of the 'let's make ourselves cute and cuddly', HR driven platitudinous Tony Blair PC brigade nonsense era.
I can feel my blood pressure rising...
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 10,804
Likes: 1
Why is it there is no standard training curriculum?
The caa make you have each one different. If you use an already appoved one it will just get thrown back at you.
Its the same with AOC's and it gets to the stupid position that the same bloke writing the part A's and B 's get them knocked back and told to change something which they had been previously been told to put in for another AOC.
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 713
Likes: 0
From: uk
MCDU2
Interesting idea but unnecessarily complicated. The escrow account gets rid of the advantage of the upfront payment, ie the use of the cash by the training provider.
By the time you get to something like this, pay as you go (preferably by credit card) achieves all of this without any added hassle.
The reality is that these training providers need to be properly capitalised where the shareholders are taking their fair share of the risk, not loading the financial risk onto the students and suppliers.
Personally I think its immoral to take advance payments like this. If a builder did this they would be chased all over the place on some consumer programme.
I think it is time that one of these consumer protection shows exposed the commercial flight training racket that was Cabair just to better inform the public.
We might not like it but it is necessary.
Interesting idea but unnecessarily complicated. The escrow account gets rid of the advantage of the upfront payment, ie the use of the cash by the training provider.
By the time you get to something like this, pay as you go (preferably by credit card) achieves all of this without any added hassle.
The reality is that these training providers need to be properly capitalised where the shareholders are taking their fair share of the risk, not loading the financial risk onto the students and suppliers.
Personally I think its immoral to take advance payments like this. If a builder did this they would be chased all over the place on some consumer programme.
I think it is time that one of these consumer protection shows exposed the commercial flight training racket that was Cabair just to better inform the public.
We might not like it but it is necessary.
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 238
Likes: 0
From: UK
Ok - I'll bite...
If that is true, Genghis, a great shame - I respect the CAA immensely for its other commitments.
Will anyone at the CAA explain how that is good practice, a valid use of its proportion of the fees I have paid them over the years? Until such time, I shall treat the approval department with the contempt and derision it seems to have worked so hard to earn.
If that is true, Genghis, a great shame - I respect the CAA immensely for its other commitments.
Will anyone at the CAA explain how that is good practice, a valid use of its proportion of the fees I have paid them over the years? Until such time, I shall treat the approval department with the contempt and derision it seems to have worked so hard to earn.
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 50
Likes: 0
From: Pub
"Cabair was in trouble, everybody knew it, it wasnt a secret. "
... and they still managed to lure victims to pay upfront
I (rightly or wrongly) started my integrated ATPL course by paying Cabair the WHOLE balance of the cost of the course (£64,000).
... with the above knowledge you gave them all that money
"My rationale was "I dont want anything distracting me from my studying/flying"
..... which you had to rationalize from the getgo
"Cabair was badly managed, badly organised and badly delivered, with a deteriorating reputation;"
..... so you and many more "students" clearly took a gamble
"but it was still a CAA Accredited school for an Integrated Course"
...... more rationale to throw money at them
You paid 70k for 90 hours of sightseeing flying because you where told with money you can bypass GA, as it seems you look down upon GA pilots and have no clue what flying is about. Bit ironic.
For years, not months this forum has been trying inform wannabe students that sCabair is running a pyramid like scheme, whether it's been said out loud so frankly or not. It has also been conveyed that once the bubble bursts, the last ones will stand to loose the most.
Go ahead call me an armchair pilot, but let me tell you I have a little blue book on the lamp table, next to the armchair. Never pay upfront. Visit at least ten schools before commencing any training.
... and they still managed to lure victims to pay upfront
I (rightly or wrongly) started my integrated ATPL course by paying Cabair the WHOLE balance of the cost of the course (£64,000).
... with the above knowledge you gave them all that money
"My rationale was "I dont want anything distracting me from my studying/flying"
..... which you had to rationalize from the getgo
"Cabair was badly managed, badly organised and badly delivered, with a deteriorating reputation;"
..... so you and many more "students" clearly took a gamble
"but it was still a CAA Accredited school for an Integrated Course"
...... more rationale to throw money at them
You paid 70k for 90 hours of sightseeing flying because you where told with money you can bypass GA, as it seems you look down upon GA pilots and have no clue what flying is about. Bit ironic.
For years, not months this forum has been trying inform wannabe students that sCabair is running a pyramid like scheme, whether it's been said out loud so frankly or not. It has also been conveyed that once the bubble bursts, the last ones will stand to loose the most.
Go ahead call me an armchair pilot, but let me tell you I have a little blue book on the lamp table, next to the armchair. Never pay upfront. Visit at least ten schools before commencing any training.
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 2,885
Likes: 0
From: Texas and UK
The advantadge to a company having in place an escrow payment against a student is that provided they provide the service the student has paid in front for to the escrow scheme then they WILL get paid - no chance of an issue with credit limits on a card. Due to this a BANK will release funding to a company, providing its credit worthy.
It replaces the tried and failed way of using students as the companies bank. Much safer than a company wondering if the funds are availible against xyz credit card. It is a two way method of protection
It replaces the tried and failed way of using students as the companies bank. Much safer than a company wondering if the funds are availible against xyz credit card. It is a two way method of protection
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 238
Likes: 0
From: UK
Interesting idea but unnecessarily complicated. The escrow account gets rid of the advantage of the upfront payment, ie the use of the cash by the training provider.
Personally I think its immoral to take advance payments like this. If a builder did this they would be chased all over the place on some consumer programme.
I think it is time that one of these consumer protection shows exposed the commercial flight training racket that was Cabair just to better inform the public.
There seems to be a distinctly nasty reaction to the OP; I, for one, can only think 'there but for the grace of God...'. Can you honestly say that you haven't laid, say, £1500, in your 'account' up front when buying a car, for example? If you haven't, you are a canny super genius and flying has robbed the banking sector of the next George Soros...
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 4
Likes: 0
From: London
I know I said I wouldn't...but.....
Okay....
I know I said I wouldnt bother looking at this, but suprisingly (or unsuprisingly), I have managed to have a few beers (hitting the bottle!) and have looked at the replies and discussed them with a few of my peers......
Well this thread has obviously caused a stir; touched a few nerves and, provoked a reaction from people involved Commericial Flight Training and 'almost' involved alike.............and, inevitably..... wound-up the GA 'Jeremy-Clarkson-alikes' Community..(!)
First of all, I've seen a few posts from lads/girls who were 'about' to join Cabair.....I'm glad you haven't lost any (serious) money. However, I also wonder what would have happened if y'all had not have been put off joining.......
I completely understand the hostility from the GA guys.....bore off part-timers: this thread is about us youngsters; nobody wants/needs to hear your embittered opinion on OUR situation that you have NO basis for commenting on....I would suggest, unless you are an ATPL FI, CFI or an ATPL or CPL Grad or a current student....dont bother continue reading. There's nothing here that concerns you, and nothing that you have any basis on commenting on. Although, I'm sure that wont stop you.........
I can understand the criticism from the "if you'd had done some research, you'd have known" and the "I have no sympathy 4 u because you were stupid enough to pay up front" guys...so I'd like to address these head on.
For a start...when I wrote the initial post I was/am ANGRY at the world and ANGRY and want/ed ANYONE to listen. I have lost £70,000 of my family's money.....we are not a family that can cover this and move on quickly.
Secondly, mine is not an isolated case...a great many of Cabair students paid up front. And why wouldnt we????.......(wait 'til the end of the post to tell us how stooopid we were)
So....with regards to research....okay......lets take this one on first.....
I went to the Flyer trade fair at T5; sat through the seminars by FlyBe who COMPLETELY AND UNRESERVEDLY endorsed Cabair. The Chief of Air Crew who stood and said they were sending their Cadets to Cranfield because of "Cabair's stellar reputation for training 'excellent' Pilots" (DIRECT QUOTE). This was in 2010. I was duly impressed by this. I then did my pre-selection with GAPAN - something that was NOT necessary, and something that I did not want to do but something to keep my dad happy (an ex-RAF pilot and my main 'sponsor', whose confidence in GAPAN was unshakable, because it was "just the same as OASC @ RAF CRANWELL") after paying a few hundred pounds.
So...like most of my peers...I embarked upon the 'selection' for the only four 'blue ribband' training providers of Integrated ATPL(A) courses. Some were 'harder' than others; atleast one was EXACTLY the same as the RAF's Officer and Aircrew Selection Centre at Cranwell. I threw myself into all of it. In six weeks I had EASILY passed three of the UK based selection centres, the RAF OASC and the further AIB. I did not complete the process for the 'Spanish based one...'... because it was taking too long...I hope you'll respect me for not naming names of FTO's.
"......Ive got no sympathy.....you should have known that a financial outlay of that magnitude would have come with inheritant risks......"
Yep, fair enough....all I can say in response of that is this.....I am not Business/Financial minded. I am a Maths Graduate. Cabair had been training Airline Pilots for over thirty years. Why would I be suspicious? Cabair seemed just as good as the rest...albeit for their shoddy Ground School premises (but was run by one of the finest gentleman I have ever had the pleasure to have met, PAUL HARDIE).
It would seem that the "solid research" you are all referring to....... is to this site's 'comments' and 'forums', which amounts to little more than gossip...??
I was approached at the T5 fair by J**_****** of Greece who offered a complete Ab-Initio ATPL(A) with a Type Rating for £50,000. I obviously did my research on this and made the conclusion that anything that sounded "too good to be true" probably is..... (Incidentally, this school is still operating....how..??..in Greece....?...Surely the Govt. cant cover the extra thousands and thousands of pounds its students will face?????). Cabair, in comparison to this fly-by-night operation, and others like it... EagleJet et al, seemed like a decent BRITISH, reliable and stable set-up.
So, if you or your son/daughter were in my position, at the time..... FlyBe announcing they were sending ALL of their cadets to Cranfield etc....BA's Chief Pilot announcing there was to be a "Pilot shortage by 2025" (whilst dotting the I's and crossing the T's on BA's first 'sponsorship scheme in almost 15 years).......a completely reputable Integrated Training Provider explaining that if "you paid everything, you could just burn through it quickly and have no stress or distractions, or fuel surcharges"....would you not have been taken in?......
....I'm sure GA """"pilots"""", who stoke rumours and who can work with hindsight because they obviously have an ability everyone else doesn't could have predicted this....."
........but I think, as a 22 year old, dealing with a 40 year old reputable, CAA accredited, integrated FTO, who has trained Pilots for EVERY decent airline in the world could not have seen this coming.
You all can slate me, take the pi$$, or hammer me, my peers, and our parents for "paying up front". Perspective and Hindsight are wonderful things when, and if, you have them....
I make NO, and I repeat NO, NO, NO, NO, NO apologies for any 'hurt' feelings or pride from my first post. If you are not "in the know", in the industry, a student, an instructor, someone who can help.....why bother chipping in?
My message to any of you 'keyboard warriors and arm-chair pilots' is this.........
......over 40 Cabair Students are over 50K down. Cabair WAS a respectable, if cheaper, brand. Maybe we were naive to pay all up front. I'm not the only one who paid in advance, and I doubt any of my peers who have lost life-changing amounts of money will be posting here. BUT, we are committed, bright, young lads/girls and we WILL make the best of this. I'm sure in two years you bitter, twisted people people will still be reading this and still be thinking of a 'witty retort'.
GOOD LUCK GUYS. KEEP THE DREAM GOING AND DONT LET THE BASTARDS GET YOU DOWN.......
I know I said I wouldnt bother looking at this, but suprisingly (or unsuprisingly), I have managed to have a few beers (hitting the bottle!) and have looked at the replies and discussed them with a few of my peers......
Well this thread has obviously caused a stir; touched a few nerves and, provoked a reaction from people involved Commericial Flight Training and 'almost' involved alike.............and, inevitably..... wound-up the GA 'Jeremy-Clarkson-alikes' Community..(!)
First of all, I've seen a few posts from lads/girls who were 'about' to join Cabair.....I'm glad you haven't lost any (serious) money. However, I also wonder what would have happened if y'all had not have been put off joining.......
I completely understand the hostility from the GA guys.....bore off part-timers: this thread is about us youngsters; nobody wants/needs to hear your embittered opinion on OUR situation that you have NO basis for commenting on....I would suggest, unless you are an ATPL FI, CFI or an ATPL or CPL Grad or a current student....dont bother continue reading. There's nothing here that concerns you, and nothing that you have any basis on commenting on. Although, I'm sure that wont stop you.........
I can understand the criticism from the "if you'd had done some research, you'd have known" and the "I have no sympathy 4 u because you were stupid enough to pay up front" guys...so I'd like to address these head on.
For a start...when I wrote the initial post I was/am ANGRY at the world and ANGRY and want/ed ANYONE to listen. I have lost £70,000 of my family's money.....we are not a family that can cover this and move on quickly.
Secondly, mine is not an isolated case...a great many of Cabair students paid up front. And why wouldnt we????.......(wait 'til the end of the post to tell us how stooopid we were)
So....with regards to research....okay......lets take this one on first.....
I went to the Flyer trade fair at T5; sat through the seminars by FlyBe who COMPLETELY AND UNRESERVEDLY endorsed Cabair. The Chief of Air Crew who stood and said they were sending their Cadets to Cranfield because of "Cabair's stellar reputation for training 'excellent' Pilots" (DIRECT QUOTE). This was in 2010. I was duly impressed by this. I then did my pre-selection with GAPAN - something that was NOT necessary, and something that I did not want to do but something to keep my dad happy (an ex-RAF pilot and my main 'sponsor', whose confidence in GAPAN was unshakable, because it was "just the same as OASC @ RAF CRANWELL") after paying a few hundred pounds.
So...like most of my peers...I embarked upon the 'selection' for the only four 'blue ribband' training providers of Integrated ATPL(A) courses. Some were 'harder' than others; atleast one was EXACTLY the same as the RAF's Officer and Aircrew Selection Centre at Cranwell. I threw myself into all of it. In six weeks I had EASILY passed three of the UK based selection centres, the RAF OASC and the further AIB. I did not complete the process for the 'Spanish based one...'... because it was taking too long...I hope you'll respect me for not naming names of FTO's.
"......Ive got no sympathy.....you should have known that a financial outlay of that magnitude would have come with inheritant risks......"
Yep, fair enough....all I can say in response of that is this.....I am not Business/Financial minded. I am a Maths Graduate. Cabair had been training Airline Pilots for over thirty years. Why would I be suspicious? Cabair seemed just as good as the rest...albeit for their shoddy Ground School premises (but was run by one of the finest gentleman I have ever had the pleasure to have met, PAUL HARDIE).
It would seem that the "solid research" you are all referring to....... is to this site's 'comments' and 'forums', which amounts to little more than gossip...??
I was approached at the T5 fair by J**_****** of Greece who offered a complete Ab-Initio ATPL(A) with a Type Rating for £50,000. I obviously did my research on this and made the conclusion that anything that sounded "too good to be true" probably is..... (Incidentally, this school is still operating....how..??..in Greece....?...Surely the Govt. cant cover the extra thousands and thousands of pounds its students will face?????). Cabair, in comparison to this fly-by-night operation, and others like it... EagleJet et al, seemed like a decent BRITISH, reliable and stable set-up.
So, if you or your son/daughter were in my position, at the time..... FlyBe announcing they were sending ALL of their cadets to Cranfield etc....BA's Chief Pilot announcing there was to be a "Pilot shortage by 2025" (whilst dotting the I's and crossing the T's on BA's first 'sponsorship scheme in almost 15 years).......a completely reputable Integrated Training Provider explaining that if "you paid everything, you could just burn through it quickly and have no stress or distractions, or fuel surcharges"....would you not have been taken in?......
....I'm sure GA """"pilots"""", who stoke rumours and who can work with hindsight because they obviously have an ability everyone else doesn't could have predicted this....."
........but I think, as a 22 year old, dealing with a 40 year old reputable, CAA accredited, integrated FTO, who has trained Pilots for EVERY decent airline in the world could not have seen this coming.
You all can slate me, take the pi$$, or hammer me, my peers, and our parents for "paying up front". Perspective and Hindsight are wonderful things when, and if, you have them....
I make NO, and I repeat NO, NO, NO, NO, NO apologies for any 'hurt' feelings or pride from my first post. If you are not "in the know", in the industry, a student, an instructor, someone who can help.....why bother chipping in?
My message to any of you 'keyboard warriors and arm-chair pilots' is this.........
......over 40 Cabair Students are over 50K down. Cabair WAS a respectable, if cheaper, brand. Maybe we were naive to pay all up front. I'm not the only one who paid in advance, and I doubt any of my peers who have lost life-changing amounts of money will be posting here. BUT, we are committed, bright, young lads/girls and we WILL make the best of this. I'm sure in two years you bitter, twisted people people will still be reading this and still be thinking of a 'witty retort'.
GOOD LUCK GUYS. KEEP THE DREAM GOING AND DONT LET THE BASTARDS GET YOU DOWN.......
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 1,071
Likes: 0
From: EGYD
Cabair WAS a respectable
You may have brought into their "marketing" but if you had asked around you would have found this simply wasn't true anymore.
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 4
Likes: 0
From: London
I may have "brought" into their marketing?......(dubious face to your dubious grammar)
Kuwaiti Airlines, RBA and our very own FlyBe may have an issue with your argument against Cabair's 'recent' reputation......
Kuwaiti Airlines, RBA and our very own FlyBe may have an issue with your argument against Cabair's 'recent' reputation......
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 381
Likes: 0
From: Scotland
Thing is though, I've known the writing has been on the wall for Cabair for 3 years and it really has - not on the basis of what I've heard here but the same thoughts have been echoed here by people who, as you will come to find, may well be 'keyboard warriors' but are also experienced airline pilots, engineers and instructors. One of the the problems with many pilots is they feel the need to be "right" all the time and it's often very black and white for them. The rightness of anything is always dependent on the situation.
I wouldn't say that your assessment of the training situation was wrong, I wouldn't have been shocked if the quality of training is fine - it usually is at most flying schools in the UK. But your understanding of the financial situation was flawed and your need to be right about how good the training was may well have blinded you to that very fact. What you need to do now is decide whether you want to keep on training, if you do then fine but remember the following.
The Internet is indelible and it's most definitely not anonymous. The flying industry is extremely small. You would not believe the number of "important" pilots that read and post on this very forum so before you post anything, have the good sense to temper it with a little humility. You may get found out and at the moment you're not coming across well at all.
I wouldn't say that your assessment of the training situation was wrong, I wouldn't have been shocked if the quality of training is fine - it usually is at most flying schools in the UK. But your understanding of the financial situation was flawed and your need to be right about how good the training was may well have blinded you to that very fact. What you need to do now is decide whether you want to keep on training, if you do then fine but remember the following.
The Internet is indelible and it's most definitely not anonymous. The flying industry is extremely small. You would not believe the number of "important" pilots that read and post on this very forum so before you post anything, have the good sense to temper it with a little humility. You may get found out and at the moment you're not coming across well at all.
Avoid imitations
Joined: Nov 2000
Aviation Qualifications: ATPL
Posts: 15,110
Likes: 1,083
From: Wandering the FIR and cyberspace often at highly unsociable times
It would seem that the "solid research" you are all referring to....... is to this site's 'comments' and 'forums', which amounts to little more than gossip...??
Your anger and dismay is understandable (I would be very angry, too) but you are directing your anger at the wrong people. The more experienced folk here would have given you the truth, but you didn't, and still don't, seem to want to accept it.
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 2,885
Likes: 0
From: Texas and UK
Frankly my thoughts are angry young guy, poor attitude, inability to accept his own failings. Knows what he wants to hear, but ignores everything else.
My thoughts after his last two posts remain the same, I would not want to be flying with him due to his attitude.
My thoughts after his last two posts remain the same, I would not want to be flying with him due to his attitude.
Joined: Sep 1999
Posts: 96
Likes: 0
From: UK
G-STRX,
By no stretch of the imagination can you call me a GA / Armchair pilot.
I am an ex-airline jet training captain and formerly (until beginning of 2010)
an instructor on the Cabair CCAT sims. As it so happens I also hold FI, IRI, Night and of course STI ratings.
Four of us were laid-off due to the anticipated reduction in student numbers and lost money in that process. Life in aviation is not necessarily rosy, as you will find out when you eventually join an airline. Especially as a FO you may find it hard going!
One suggestion though: lose the attitude....... It is you who ******-up and you cannot blame Ppruners for that. Take it on the chin. Marketing is sometimes a dirty word! Your anger, although understandable, clouds your reasoning. You got suckered in. !!!! happens!
Nevertheless you do have my sympathies, as have your peers. Best wishes for the future and may you quickly earn back the monies somehow.
An old codger!
By no stretch of the imagination can you call me a GA / Armchair pilot.
I am an ex-airline jet training captain and formerly (until beginning of 2010)
an instructor on the Cabair CCAT sims. As it so happens I also hold FI, IRI, Night and of course STI ratings.
Four of us were laid-off due to the anticipated reduction in student numbers and lost money in that process. Life in aviation is not necessarily rosy, as you will find out when you eventually join an airline. Especially as a FO you may find it hard going!
One suggestion though: lose the attitude....... It is you who ******-up and you cannot blame Ppruners for that. Take it on the chin. Marketing is sometimes a dirty word! Your anger, although understandable, clouds your reasoning. You got suckered in. !!!! happens!
Nevertheless you do have my sympathies, as have your peers. Best wishes for the future and may you quickly earn back the monies somehow.
An old codger!
Moderator
Joined: Feb 2000
Aviation Qualifications: CPL
Posts: 14,480
Likes: 178
From: UK
ATPL FI, CFI or an ATPL or CPL Grad or a current student
Standard advice that has been the mainstream for years:
(1) Don't pay up front.
(2) Go modular not integrated; the integrated product is vastly more expensive for marginal, if any, real benefits.
(3) Always look at the real motives of anybody trying to advise any approach to training.
(4) The coming pilot shortage is fictional and almost entirely hype generated by training providers and their supporters.
You could have missed the specifics about Cabair, and clearly many did, but nobody should really have missed the majority of that mainstream opinion.
I have a lot of sympathy for where the students and now unemployed staff at Cabair have found themselves (rather less for those who stayed on with the new, reborn, and very shortlived new version, who really had every reason to believe that this was a crock), but it really wasn't for lack of fair warning.
My brother feels much the same about his ex-wife! We all told him she was going to f*** his life up, 10 years of unhappy marriage and a hellishly messy divorce later, he apologised to all of us for not listening before.
G
Joined: Nov 1999
Posts: 2,308
Likes: 1
Okay....
I know I said I wouldnt bother looking at this, but suprisingly (or unsuprisingly), I have managed to have a few beers (hitting the bottle!) and have looked at the replies and discussed them with a few of my peers......
Well this thread has obviously caused a stir; touched a few nerves and, provoked a reaction from people involved Commericial Flight Training and 'almost' involved alike.............and, inevitably..... wound-up the GA 'Jeremy-Clarkson-alikes' Community..(!)
First of all, I've seen a few posts from lads/girls who were 'about' to join Cabair.....I'm glad you haven't lost any (serious) money. However, I also wonder what would have happened if y'all had not have been put off joining.......
I completely understand the hostility from the GA guys.....bore off part-timers: this thread is about us youngsters; nobody wants/needs to hear your embittered opinion on OUR situation that you have NO basis for commenting on....I would suggest, unless you are an ATPL FI, CFI or an ATPL or CPL Grad or a current student....dont bother continue reading. There's nothing here that concerns you, and nothing that you have any basis on commenting on. Although, I'm sure that wont stop you.........
I can understand the criticism from the "if you'd had done some research, you'd have known" and the "I have no sympathy 4 u because you were stupid enough to pay up front" guys...so I'd like to address these head on.
For a start...when I wrote the initial post I was/am ANGRY at the world and ANGRY and want/ed ANYONE to listen. I have lost £70,000 of my family's money.....we are not a family that can cover this and move on quickly.
Secondly, mine is not an isolated case...a great many of Cabair students paid up front. And why wouldnt we????.......(wait 'til the end of the post to tell us how stooopid we were)
So....with regards to research....okay......lets take this one on first.....
I went to the Flyer trade fair at T5; sat through the seminars by FlyBe who COMPLETELY AND UNRESERVEDLY endorsed Cabair. The Chief of Air Crew who stood and said they were sending their Cadets to Cranfield because of "Cabair's stellar reputation for training 'excellent' Pilots" (DIRECT QUOTE). This was in 2010. I was duly impressed by this. I then did my pre-selection with GAPAN - something that was NOT necessary, and something that I did not want to do but something to keep my dad happy (an ex-RAF pilot and my main 'sponsor', whose confidence in GAPAN was unshakable, because it was "just the same as OASC @ RAF CRANWELL") after paying a few hundred pounds.
So...like most of my peers...I embarked upon the 'selection' for the only four 'blue ribband' training providers of Integrated ATPL(A) courses. Some were 'harder' than others; atleast one was EXACTLY the same as the RAF's Officer and Aircrew Selection Centre at Cranwell. I threw myself into all of it. In six weeks I had EASILY passed three of the UK based selection centres, the RAF OASC and the further AIB. I did not complete the process for the 'Spanish based one...'... because it was taking too long...I hope you'll respect me for not naming names of FTO's.
"......Ive got no sympathy.....you should have known that a financial outlay of that magnitude would have come with inheritant risks......"
Yep, fair enough....all I can say in response of that is this.....I am not Business/Financial minded. I am a Maths Graduate. Cabair had been training Airline Pilots for over thirty years. Why would I be suspicious? Cabair seemed just as good as the rest...albeit for their shoddy Ground School premises (but was run by one of the finest gentleman I have ever had the pleasure to have met, PAUL HARDIE).
It would seem that the "solid research" you are all referring to....... is to this site's 'comments' and 'forums', which amounts to little more than gossip...??
I was approached at the T5 fair by J**_****** of Greece who offered a complete Ab-Initio ATPL(A) with a Type Rating for £50,000. I obviously did my research on this and made the conclusion that anything that sounded "too good to be true" probably is..... (Incidentally, this school is still operating....how..??..in Greece....?...Surely the Govt. cant cover the extra thousands and thousands of pounds its students will face?????). Cabair, in comparison to this fly-by-night operation, and others like it... EagleJet et al, seemed like a decent BRITISH, reliable and stable set-up.
So, if you or your son/daughter were in my position, at the time..... FlyBe announcing they were sending ALL of their cadets to Cranfield etc....BA's Chief Pilot announcing there was to be a "Pilot shortage by 2025" (whilst dotting the I's and crossing the T's on BA's first 'sponsorship scheme in almost 15 years).......a completely reputable Integrated Training Provider explaining that if "you paid everything, you could just burn through it quickly and have no stress or distractions, or fuel surcharges"....would you not have been taken in?......
....I'm sure GA """"pilots"""", who stoke rumours and who can work with hindsight because they obviously have an ability everyone else doesn't could have predicted this....."
........but I think, as a 22 year old, dealing with a 40 year old reputable, CAA accredited, integrated FTO, who has trained Pilots for EVERY decent airline in the world could not have seen this coming.
You all can slate me, take the pi$$, or hammer me, my peers, and our parents for "paying up front". Perspective and Hindsight are wonderful things when, and if, you have them....
I make NO, and I repeat NO, NO, NO, NO, NO apologies for any 'hurt' feelings or pride from my first post. If you are not "in the know", in the industry, a student, an instructor, someone who can help.....why bother chipping in?
My message to any of you 'keyboard warriors and arm-chair pilots' is this.........
......over 40 Cabair Students are over 50K down. Cabair WAS a respectable, if cheaper, brand. Maybe we were naive to pay all up front. I'm not the only one who paid in advance, and I doubt any of my peers who have lost life-changing amounts of money will be posting here. BUT, we are committed, bright, young lads/girls and we WILL make the best of this. I'm sure in two years you bitter, twisted people people will still be reading this and still be thinking of a 'witty retort'.
GOOD LUCK GUYS. KEEP THE DREAM GOING AND DONT LET THE BASTARDS GET YOU DOWN.......
I know I said I wouldnt bother looking at this, but suprisingly (or unsuprisingly), I have managed to have a few beers (hitting the bottle!) and have looked at the replies and discussed them with a few of my peers......
Well this thread has obviously caused a stir; touched a few nerves and, provoked a reaction from people involved Commericial Flight Training and 'almost' involved alike.............and, inevitably..... wound-up the GA 'Jeremy-Clarkson-alikes' Community..(!)
First of all, I've seen a few posts from lads/girls who were 'about' to join Cabair.....I'm glad you haven't lost any (serious) money. However, I also wonder what would have happened if y'all had not have been put off joining.......
I completely understand the hostility from the GA guys.....bore off part-timers: this thread is about us youngsters; nobody wants/needs to hear your embittered opinion on OUR situation that you have NO basis for commenting on....I would suggest, unless you are an ATPL FI, CFI or an ATPL or CPL Grad or a current student....dont bother continue reading. There's nothing here that concerns you, and nothing that you have any basis on commenting on. Although, I'm sure that wont stop you.........
I can understand the criticism from the "if you'd had done some research, you'd have known" and the "I have no sympathy 4 u because you were stupid enough to pay up front" guys...so I'd like to address these head on.
For a start...when I wrote the initial post I was/am ANGRY at the world and ANGRY and want/ed ANYONE to listen. I have lost £70,000 of my family's money.....we are not a family that can cover this and move on quickly.
Secondly, mine is not an isolated case...a great many of Cabair students paid up front. And why wouldnt we????.......(wait 'til the end of the post to tell us how stooopid we were)
So....with regards to research....okay......lets take this one on first.....
I went to the Flyer trade fair at T5; sat through the seminars by FlyBe who COMPLETELY AND UNRESERVEDLY endorsed Cabair. The Chief of Air Crew who stood and said they were sending their Cadets to Cranfield because of "Cabair's stellar reputation for training 'excellent' Pilots" (DIRECT QUOTE). This was in 2010. I was duly impressed by this. I then did my pre-selection with GAPAN - something that was NOT necessary, and something that I did not want to do but something to keep my dad happy (an ex-RAF pilot and my main 'sponsor', whose confidence in GAPAN was unshakable, because it was "just the same as OASC @ RAF CRANWELL") after paying a few hundred pounds.
So...like most of my peers...I embarked upon the 'selection' for the only four 'blue ribband' training providers of Integrated ATPL(A) courses. Some were 'harder' than others; atleast one was EXACTLY the same as the RAF's Officer and Aircrew Selection Centre at Cranwell. I threw myself into all of it. In six weeks I had EASILY passed three of the UK based selection centres, the RAF OASC and the further AIB. I did not complete the process for the 'Spanish based one...'... because it was taking too long...I hope you'll respect me for not naming names of FTO's.
"......Ive got no sympathy.....you should have known that a financial outlay of that magnitude would have come with inheritant risks......"
Yep, fair enough....all I can say in response of that is this.....I am not Business/Financial minded. I am a Maths Graduate. Cabair had been training Airline Pilots for over thirty years. Why would I be suspicious? Cabair seemed just as good as the rest...albeit for their shoddy Ground School premises (but was run by one of the finest gentleman I have ever had the pleasure to have met, PAUL HARDIE).
It would seem that the "solid research" you are all referring to....... is to this site's 'comments' and 'forums', which amounts to little more than gossip...??
I was approached at the T5 fair by J**_****** of Greece who offered a complete Ab-Initio ATPL(A) with a Type Rating for £50,000. I obviously did my research on this and made the conclusion that anything that sounded "too good to be true" probably is..... (Incidentally, this school is still operating....how..??..in Greece....?...Surely the Govt. cant cover the extra thousands and thousands of pounds its students will face?????). Cabair, in comparison to this fly-by-night operation, and others like it... EagleJet et al, seemed like a decent BRITISH, reliable and stable set-up.
So, if you or your son/daughter were in my position, at the time..... FlyBe announcing they were sending ALL of their cadets to Cranfield etc....BA's Chief Pilot announcing there was to be a "Pilot shortage by 2025" (whilst dotting the I's and crossing the T's on BA's first 'sponsorship scheme in almost 15 years).......a completely reputable Integrated Training Provider explaining that if "you paid everything, you could just burn through it quickly and have no stress or distractions, or fuel surcharges"....would you not have been taken in?......
....I'm sure GA """"pilots"""", who stoke rumours and who can work with hindsight because they obviously have an ability everyone else doesn't could have predicted this....."
........but I think, as a 22 year old, dealing with a 40 year old reputable, CAA accredited, integrated FTO, who has trained Pilots for EVERY decent airline in the world could not have seen this coming.
You all can slate me, take the pi$$, or hammer me, my peers, and our parents for "paying up front". Perspective and Hindsight are wonderful things when, and if, you have them....
I make NO, and I repeat NO, NO, NO, NO, NO apologies for any 'hurt' feelings or pride from my first post. If you are not "in the know", in the industry, a student, an instructor, someone who can help.....why bother chipping in?
My message to any of you 'keyboard warriors and arm-chair pilots' is this.........
......over 40 Cabair Students are over 50K down. Cabair WAS a respectable, if cheaper, brand. Maybe we were naive to pay all up front. I'm not the only one who paid in advance, and I doubt any of my peers who have lost life-changing amounts of money will be posting here. BUT, we are committed, bright, young lads/girls and we WILL make the best of this. I'm sure in two years you bitter, twisted people people will still be reading this and still be thinking of a 'witty retort'.
GOOD LUCK GUYS. KEEP THE DREAM GOING AND DONT LET THE BASTARDS GET YOU DOWN.......
I am a bit surprised that you blame this website and its contributors for that companies woes. A company goes bust for one very simple reason. It runs out of operating cash. If I remember correctly (and I can't find the post,) you joined this forum last summer with a post about the problems you had experienced trying to obtain a US visa with a DD conviction. Since then it seems you only returned to post a complaint about contributors to this site being in some way responsible for the demise of this company.
There are many people on this site who do try and offer help, advice, warning and criticism to wannabes based on their own experience and in some cases expertise. In my own 13 years of doing so, it seems that many people don't want to "listen" to anything that doesn't mesh with their own preconceptions or what they want to hear. However that doesn't matter. If it helps anybody at all, then the effort is worthwhile.
When it comes to integrated training providers, I have made my views known for some time. I have always referred to the "big 3" and anyone else is simply a runner up in these stakes. If you are going to invest big money in this type of training, then I really believe it is important to go the whole hog.
From what you have said, you are about halfway through the course? Obviously the later stages (multi engine, IR) are the expensive stages, and clearly that has a very adverse impact on your situation. Obviously it is repairable, but it isn't going to be cheap. I know that some ex-students have approached other integrated providers with a view to completion, and some are now completing their courses.
My advice (take it or leave it) is to look at where the airlines are currently taking cadets from, and direct yourself that way. That would have also been my advice in the Summer of 2010 and 2011, but it is never too late!
To rephrase the moderators advice given above:
1) never pay upfront more than a sum that keeps the training provider moderately ahead of the service they are contracted to provide. The good providers won't expect you to.
2) If you want to be a cadet airline pilot you will nearly always need to go integrated. If you research where the airlines with cadet programmes source and train their cadets, you will soon realise they are heavily swayed to the "big 3" and even within that group it is not an equal balance.
3) The motives are often coloured by the contributors own training background. Often, but not always. Take all advice with a pinch of salt, and always be sceptical. Nevertheless, there are people in the heart of the industry that can tell you what is really happening if you really want to know. Sometimes that advice may be unpalatable, but that doesn't mean the observations are either wrong or misleading. Usually it doesn't take much research of your own to seperate the fact from the fiction.
4) Pilot shortages are almost never across the board. Pilots come in a whole spectrum of occupations and experience levels. Within these forums, the concentration is naturally what happens at the entry level. This is and always has been a fiercely competitive market that is well supplied and subject to very patchy demand. Schools selling a product (rather like anybody selling a product) will always talk up the market. That is natural and essential to their survival. Forums such as this provide a platform for individuals to redress that balance with less etherial discussion and a better spectrum of advice, comment and opinion and warning! Which rather neatly brings us back to the subject of your complaint.
I wish you well and hope that you are able to bite the bullet and recover from this enormous setback. That goes for anybody else in a similar position to yourself. It won't be easy. In six months time I really hope you will be able to post a tale of recovery, and I look forward to reading it. I understand your anger and frustration, but as you will realise eventually, it is currently directed at the wrong target.
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 30
Likes: 0
From: United Kingdom
Cabair seemed just as good as the rest...albeit for their shoddy Ground School premises (but was run by one of the finest gentleman I have ever had the pleasure to have met).