CABAIR - General discussion for those involved.

[goldeneaglepilot]

The words of the village idiot

So lets get this right - you paid all of your money up front? You did not mind loaning Cabair your money and became a "bank" for them. You took the risk of lending them the money and when it all goes wrong you lash out at others.

You expected others to take the same risk to protect your money. You expected people to follow you like sheep.

At least what was posted on here allowed people to make their minds up from an informed decision.

Frankly I'm glad you did not get a licence, with your clear selfish streak I would not want to fly in an aeroplane with you. You only think of yourself.

I wish you well in your future, perhaps washing cars is better suited to you. At least you wont put others at risk.

[mcgoo]

^ What he Said + 1!

[ShyTorque]

G-STRX won't be reading this but it's a huge shame that he didn't join the forum before parting with his money "up front".

One piece of advice very often repeated here is that one should never put a stash of money up front for flight training, for precisely the reason he has sadly discovered.

[rmcb]

Please be gentle on this guy - he has just lost a shedload of cash and is, I feel, entitled to be a little pissed off.

Despite what he feels, contributors here didn't cause this company's demise - alleged dishonesty, slack management and amorality did that months back. PPRuNe has shown some backbone that was distinctly lacking some years back.

I lay the blame squarely at the feet of the CAA; they put these jokers on their approved list - there must be criteria that are just too loose to let this happen. Do we hear anything from the Gatwick Aquarium? Nothing obvious that I can see...

[goldeneaglepilot]

Cabair was badly managed, badly organised and badly delivered, with a deteriorating reputation

My thoughts are in this case tough sh!t that the poster lost £70k. He should not have paid his money up front and then expected others to follow like sheep to protect his money

[Shaft109]

Homework, due diligence.......it pays off

I recently attended a selection / assessment day with the 'new' Cabair.

Quite impressed with the presentation and zero bull**** style.

'Passed' the selection.

Whilst waiting for quote I found out as much as possible about the school from yes, pprune, but also contacts, aquaintances, and by driving down to Cranfield on a day off and having a nosey without telling the school mystery shopper style.

I couldn't get on site but did see 3 DA42's parked although none moved anywhere.

Alarm bell 1. All the aircraft were leased. Don't know why but it struck me as just a little odd.

2. Quote didn't allow for paying in installments (£3000) at a time.

3. Massive thread on here about Cabair having difficulties as little as 2 months ago.

4. The quote was for the bare minimum hours, app fees and as much sim time as possible.

5. The sage advice NEVER PAY UP FRONT - for anything.

6. A gut instinct that I can't put my finger on from the above.

The result is I saved all of my cash - I'd like to point out that I'm not gloating at the thread starter who lost all his money - but I question why he or she simply didn't keep the money in their bank account if they had that much sitting there earning yourself interest and transfer it as and when required.

I just can't understand the logic; moreover I was in the actual process to give Cabair my money so I'm not a keyboard warrior on this one. Actually I did give them £179 last month but I'll put that down to experience.

Looks like I made the right decision then.

[zondaracer]

I cannot imagine what it would feel like to lose that kind of money. So understandably he is upset, but this is 2012, the Internet has become extremely powerful and that is reality. The wealth of information has to ability to just proliferate on here and there is not much you can do about that.

OP is not the first to lose his money, and won't be the last. Hopefully, the message "don't pay up front" will reach out to more folks that wouldn't have heard it if it were not for the Internet.

[rmcb]

Cabair was badly managed, badly organised and badly delivered, with a deteriorating reputation; but it was still a CAA Accredited school for an Integrated Course trying to make the best of a bad situation.

So why does the CAA feel that this company should be allowed to take massive, huge, life changing 100% deposits up front? Their fiduciary nous was distinctly lacking in the recent past. What about a CAA funded escrow? Sure, it will put up the cost of flying but it's the only way I can work on for delivering peace of mind.

I am sure there will be lots of 'that's all we're required to do' responses (Nuremburg defence?). If that's the case it's inadequate, pathetic and disgraceful from a monopoly doing the bidding of our legislature. Who, incidentally take a lot of our gelt throughout the process of training.

[gpn01]

Originally Posted by keith williams

Although lots of companies will express their sympathy and offer to "take on" the victims of the CABAIR disaster, it is probably the case that most of these offers are driven by the self-interest of the companies rather than anything more altruistic.

All of the FTO’s are likely to be struggling to find business at the moment and some will be struggling to remain afloat. CABAIR will not be the last one to fail. Students looking for a new FTO should take great care not to get bitten again.

It is also worth remembering that EPTA was owned and managed by WAC when it went down.

Don't think the latter point is correct. EPTA was owned by World Aviation Holdings Ltd, a holding company set up from Cabair International Aviation Ltd. WAC was also owned by World Aviation Holdings Ltd. EPTA wasn't therefore owned by WAC.

When Cabair went into Administration, EPTA went into liquidation and WAC went into administration. Worldwide Aviation Ltd, another company within the WAHL holding also went into administration and was sold through a pre-pack deal to DS Aviation. WAC was sold as a pre-pack deal Booker Aircraft Operations Ltd. Booker Aircraft Operations Ltd is owned by Booker UK Investments Ltd.

[gpn01]

Originally Posted by G-STRX

Well.....

Cabair was badly managed, badly organised and badly delivered, with a deteriorating reputation; but it was still a CAA Accredited school for an Integrated Course trying to make the best of a bad situation.

What Cabair didnt need at this point was 'armchair pilots' chipping in after hearing half of a conversation through their mates and then regurgitating it on this very website and, in turn, making any potential students look elsewhere.

It carried on from there. The damage to the brand to the brand was done. No matter what Cabair's instructors, management, marketing, operations did, they were at the mercy of 'armchair pilots'.

Do you not think that the brand was in any way damaged by the characteristics you described as "badly managed, badly organised and badly delivered, with a deteriorating reputation" ? Do you really believe that more harm was caused by posts on PPRUNE?

H'mmm.

When a company like this, which operates a financial model that sees much of its income come in well before the expediture (pretty much nirvana for a company as it shoudn't need to worry about cashflow!), goes bust it's only to be expected that remarks will be made on websites to forewarn others. Even if nothing had appeared on PPRUNE I would expect that if it had an untenable business model that it would fail anyway.

[lap1104]

I recently attended a selection / assessment day with the 'new' Cabair.

When I saw this thread, I couldn't help but join the forums. I had just applied to Cabair and was due to go to my assessment day next Thursday. Oh well, there's £179 down the drain, better happen now than it being tonnes more!

It has also been a learning curve, as although I knew Cabair had been in difficulty last year, I was under the impression that this was a 'all new Cabair' - clearly not.

I was kind of hoping that the assessment day would still go ahead, not that I would accept the place if offered (which obviously wouldn't happen), rather just to gain the experience to take to flight schools that I would apply to in future, and to at least get some sort of assessment day experience out of my £179.

[BigGrecian]

. So the next time you think about regurgitating a rumour you may have heard 'down the flying club'....peoples lives, mortgages, and future may be at stake.

They weren't rumours. They were true - and they've had a shoddy reputation for years - morale of the story do your research!

[Flaymy]

The damage to the brand to the brand was done.

The brand had little left to damage. I did my training many years ago, and was irritated by their management (I must emphasise that this was a management problem; I know of no criticism of instructors) even before I learnt that there was often an "S" added to the name of the company.

The irritation I felt is quite relevant here. They tried to sell me an integrated course, despite the fact that I had nearly 200 hours already. They never even mentioned modular courses. They never gave the option of paying in more than two instalments. So I saved my money, and went to a school that allowed me to pay much less up-front and of course much less in total.

The point is G-STRX is blaming people here because they persuaded others not to be as foolish as he was. Had he done sound research before spending an eye-watering amount of money (I was wary of spending half that!) then he would have known that integrated courses are ridiculously costly, are not appropriate for most people unless in some sort of scheme aimed at a particular employer, and that Cabair had a bad reputation on the commercial side.

Very sad that he lost an extra £15k, but by human nature it is almost inevitable to throw good money after bad, to think that without that little extra £15k then the original £64k is wasted.

[jmparis]

CTC in Bournemouth (Spoke to Jane Brookfield who now works over there, they seem to be fully booked until Autumn, but perhaps to get on the list would be a start)

@chrisaviator Would you be able to put me in contact with Jane Brookfield? I know her from when she used to work for EPTA in Bournemouth and I'm currently considering transferring to CTC.

[jmparis]

@jmparis. There is someone at AFT by the name of Ghassan you can reach him on [email protected]. He should be able to help out with any questions you have with regards to transfers.

Hope it goes well for you!

@jjordan Thanks for the email address

[Dan the weegie]

My thoughts are in this case tough sh!t that the poster lost £70k. He should not have paid his money up front and then expected others to follow like sheep to protect his money

Wow man, that's seriously cold. The poor guy is lashing out because he has nowhere to go. You sounds like the kind of chap who would walk up to a guy that lost his legs in Afghanistan dancing around him telling him he shouldn't really be surprised because there's folk that get blown up there every day.

People make unwise decisions all the time and what a terrible shame that this guy lost that money on a bad decision.

[jmparis]

if you are referring to the same one i think of, today a dozen of ex-cabair students walked in with logbooks and other relevant documents seeking assistance. Another half-dozen is expected for tomorrow morning as well.

Whilst 'this school' is very busy and has a commensurate fleet of a/c to cope with its current students, i'm pretty sure everything possible will be done to assist any Cabair students, from CAA transfer paperwork to possibly some free time in the sim to help. Even temporary leasing extra a/c to supply more (unexpected) training is considered.

@windforce Would you be able to give me the name of the flight school? I'm also an ex-Cabair student in need of assistance.

[FOUR REDS]

Cabair.net:

quote -

This domain has just been registered for one of our customers!
Domain registration and webhosting at best prices.
OneandOne

Unquote

So quickly after the event, who would want THAT name?

[Lightning Mate]

The man said it!

[Flaymy]

Someone who wants to redirect searches to their own website /cynic