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Sector entries

Old 28th Jul 2011, 04:28
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Sector entries

Hi guys /gals

Any quick tips/ rules of thumb for allowing for wind during sector 1 and sector 2 entries to the holding pattern?

Thanks in advance!
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Old 28th Jul 2011, 06:19
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For parallel and offset entry just apply normal WCA to fly the track (parallel or 30° offset) and when inbound the fix, again apply WCA so you don't end up chasing the needle. Once established in the hold, apply 3x WCA in the outbound track, so you compensate for both turns and outbound track.
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Old 28th Jul 2011, 17:54
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What we use: WCA inbound less than 10°: double it on the outbound.
WCA inbound greater than 10°: add 10.
Works pretty well.

But I´m sure there´s a million rules that will all get you there.
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Old 28th Jul 2011, 20:20
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Personally, I don't see anything in particular to be worried about with regards to sector 1 or 2 entry. No matter what kind of corrections (heading/time) you may apply, the examiner wants to see you doing the following at the end:

1) Nominating the type of entry from the direction you are approaching the hold, and obviously doing the entry correctly!

2) Foreseeing the overshoot/undershoot while turning to Gate 2 (60 degrees to go) and making sensible adjustments to end up on the Inbound Track of the hold when you roll out.

3) If it doesn't really look so pretty after the step above (2), TRACK YOUR HEART OUT until you get established on the inbound track (+/-5 degrees) for a sufficient amount of time before you hit the beacon or the the holding fix. Don't give up tracking until you get really close to the fix (about 0.5nm).

In general, try to stick to the sequence (Time, Twist, Turn, Talk) while you are in the hold. A common mistake that people often do is turning while fiddling around with little knobs or buttons at the same time! Try to avoid that if you are already doing it. Ideally, the only thing you are allowed to do in the turn is just talking!!

That's what it's all about really! Anything else you do during the hold, as long as it's a sensible thing to do, the examiner will not be terribly interested or bothered.


All the best.
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Old 29th Jul 2011, 04:45
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For a sector 2, teardrop entry, fly a wider gate if you have a wind coming from the holding side, and a smaller gate if you have a wind coming from the non-holding side (to aid in rolling out on the inbound track).
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Old 29th Jul 2011, 15:25
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For a sector 2, teardrop entry, fly a wider gate if you have a wind coming from the holding side, and a smaller gate if you have a wind coming from the non-holding side (to aid in rolling out on the inbound track).
Not quite what PANSOPS says.

There is no requirement in PANS OPS to establish on the inbound track of the holding during teardrop/offset entry
Not sure this is right either.

From PANSOPS (my bold type):

Sector 2 procedure (offset entry):

a) at the fix, the aircraft is turned onto a heading to make good a track making an angle of 30° from the reciprocal of the inbound track on the holding side; then

b) the aircraft will fly outbound:

1) for the appropriate period of time (see 1.4.9, “Time/distance outbound”), where timing is specified; or

2) until the appropriate limiting DME distance is reached, where distance is specified. If a limiting radial is also specified, then the outbound distance is determined either by the limiting DME distance or the limiting radial, whichever comes first;

c) the aircraft is turned right to intercept the inbound holding track; and

d) on second arrival over the holding fix, the aircraft is turned right to follow the holding pattern.
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Old 29th Jul 2011, 17:49
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If I can call the outbound track of the teardrop entry the "gate", since the gate is also 30 degrees, unless varied by wind.

Now this is interesting, that it says to make good a track 30 degrees from the inbound axis.

We know that we vary the outbound track, go wide etc. to roll out on the inbound track when flying the hold. This means the holding area etc. accommodates a varying outbound track. With this in mind, it makes sense to fly the approximate gate for teardrop entry...

The logic to why we dont want to overshoot the inbound in a hold, should still hold true for turning inbound from a teardrop entry.
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Old 29th Jul 2011, 21:22
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With this in mind, it makes sense to fly the approximate gate for teardrop entry...
I hope you were not doing the offset entry in any other method!!

Hit the beacon, start the timer, twist the course selector (heading bug) to Gate 1 with wind correction, turn to the nominated heading, fly it for 1 minute with wind correction again (+/-1 second per 1 knot of head/tail wind for a light twin or single engine A/C, or +/-1 second per 2 knots for heavy jet or large turboprop.), then turn to intercept the inbound track, and anticipate the overshoot/undershoot while approaching Gate 2.

As a rule of thumb, G1 for a right hand hold is equal to the outbound heading -30 degrees. For a left hand hold, G1 is the outbound +30 degrees.

Keep in mind that G1 is a TRACK, not a heading! so you have to correct it for winds. The exact rule that we should be using for figuring out G1 is as follows:
G1 moves into the wind by half of the applied max drift but not more than 10 degrees.

Cheers.
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Old 1st Aug 2011, 17:46
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Cheers. So my question is how do we reconcile the PANS-OPS posted by Curtis?

a) at the fix, the aircraft is turned onto a heading to make good a track making an angle of 30° from the reciprocal of the inbound track on the holding side; then
It says "make good a track" and we are saying otherwise.
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Old 1st Aug 2011, 21:08
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It says "make good a track" and we are saying otherwise.
Certainly Not! It's exactly what I tried to explain in my last post.

I'll try to chunk down the procedure given in that awkward sentence to make it looks easier to interpret.

a) at the fix, the aircraft is turned onto a heading --------- i.e Gate 1 Track + corrections for winds = Gate 1 Heading

That's because G1 is a track that you have to fly wind-corrected. You also have to correct the 1 minute time according to the proportion of head/tail wind you are flying at.

.......to make good a track making an angle of 30° from the reciprocal of the inbound track on the holding side --------- if you think about it, this is precisely the definition of Gate 1 !!!Like I said before, G1 for right hand hold is the outbound (reciprocal of the inbound track) minus 30 degrees, and for left hand hold it's the outbound plus 30 degrees.

By experience, you will find out that an undershoot is always easier to deal with compared to the overshoot. So if you want to avoid the overshoot, first you have to carefully visualize where the wind is coming from relative to the aircraft while you enter the hold. Second, try to subtly steer the aircraft more into the holding side while doing the offset entry so that when you turn to the inbound axis you are more likely to be in an undershoot position if not spot on the track! But be sensible about it if you already have the winds blowing from the non-holding side as it will do the job for you and make you fly wide into the holding side and putting you in the favorable undershoot situation.

Cheers.
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Old 3rd Aug 2011, 14:08
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Post Maintaining the Gate on the Alternate Procedure

777-Aviator ...thanks this is really helpful.

I've got a question regarding calculating and maintaining the Gate while doing an "Alternative Procedure" for a procedural approach after doing holds.

Basically, the procedure I'm referring to, demands to extend the outbound leg for, for example (depending on the procedure) 2.5mins, nil winds.
Now, to correct the Gate, for winds do you have to use Single Drift, twice or 3x the SD?

I'm referring to the EGTC procedure.....
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Old 3rd Aug 2011, 21:37
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Hi likair,

For the alternative procedure in EGTC, you should extend the outbound leg for 2'30'' in nil winds condition like you said (if you are Cat. A aircraft as I would imagine).

Once you are cleared for the procedure, you turn to the outbound, start the timer when you have the wings level or at the abeam point whichever comes later. You should be flying the first minute of the 2.5 minutes as a normal hold i.e. 2x drift or 3x drift according to winds. Once you've flown that first minute, you should reduce the correction to only single drift for the rest of the 2.5 minutes. But bear in mind that you will most likely need to adjust the total time according to winds. Let's assume that the proportion of wind you are flying at is 10 knots of tailwind while you are in the outbound leg. This means that you have to fly 10 seconds less for each minute in the extended outbound leg.

So out of the 2'30'':
1st minute would be adjusted to 50 seconds. (with 2x or 3x the drift)
2nd minute would be adjusted to 50 seconds as well. (back to single drift)
the final 30 seconds would be adjusted to 25 seconds. (Single drift)

Now as you do this, you should be already descending from the hold level to the platform altitude.

This would give you a total flying time of 2'05'', and then you commence the base turn.

I hope this answers your question.

Cheers mate.
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Old 4th Aug 2011, 12:10
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Thumbs up

Heyyy 777-Aviator

Thanks for your reply!!!
That sounds fantastic .... and it makes sense.

However I was told to maintain 2x the Drift for ALL the "Alternative Procedure" ( from the abeam point or once you've got wings level, whichever comes later, as you correctly said) and not dividing it into parts and adjust accordingly with the drift angle.

I keep in mind the following:
Hold Out bound = 3x Drift
Hold In bound = Singe Drift
Alternative Proc. = 2x Drift and for the
No Delay Procedure ( which basically is the missed approach procedure that leads you back to the beacon for another approach!!) = Single Drift.

To tell you the truth I don't imagine myself changing the track for every minute while doing the Alternative Procedure. My point is that I prefer sticking with a calculated track while PreFlight Planning and maintain it all the way to Base turn point, rather then changing it.....
Those it really make sense?

Regarding the Timing I agree 100% with you!!

Thanks a lot for your INPUT!!
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Old 4th Aug 2011, 20:53
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To tell you the truth I don't imagine myself changing the track for every minute while doing the Alternative Procedure. My point is that I prefer sticking with a calculated track while PreFlight Planning and maintain it all the way to Base turn point, rather then changing it.....
Does it really make sense?
Well.. Back in the days during my IR training, one of my friends had an endless argument with his examiner about this issue in particular! He flew the extended outbound leg in a similar procedure like that one of EGTC without reducing the drift to single drift right after the first minute wind-corrected! Obviously, it wasn't a fail point, but you never know what could happen with a different examiner on a different day with the same procedure! My main argument, however, would be flying the thing as accurately as possible. Plus that for the purpose of planning, it won't hurt so much if you stick to 3x drift for the first minute and then back to single drift thereafter. From the practical side of it, it won't make a significant difference in light winds if you change the drift or not. But on a tough windy day, 3x drift for 2 minutes or more, this would seriously put you wider or tighter compared to the path you had to fly and this would mean you are working against yourself by inducing an under/overshoot that you could have avoided somehow from the start.

I'm not saying you are wrong about your method, but that was the way I've been taught to do fly it and I'm happy to do it that way. If your instructor is happy about your method, then fair enough! Just fly it right

Last edited by 777-Aviator; 4th Aug 2011 at 21:07.
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Old 1st Oct 2011, 06:42
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Is there a leeway with the pilot to choose what entry he has to use if he is close to to the boundary of two entry radials? Is such a practice 'official'?
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Old 1st Oct 2011, 06:49
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5 degrees either side of the boundaries.

Last edited by disco87; 1st Oct 2011 at 07:21.
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Old 1st Oct 2011, 06:57
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D87,
Thanks, but is there a manual which you're quoting or is this just a practical tip?
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Old 2nd Oct 2011, 23:11
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is there a manual which you're quoting or is this just a practical tip?
It must be mentioned somewhere in JAR OPS. I have to say that there are a handful of topics of which people often struggle to find the sufficient technical details about them in manuals but you only get to know these by practice! Unfortunately, holding procedures is one of such topics.

Agreed anyway... Within +/- 5 degrees, it's your choice.
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Old 3rd Oct 2011, 08:22
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From PANSOPS Part 1 Section 6 Chapter 1

1.4 ENTRY

Note.— Variations of the basic procedure for local conditions may be authorized by States after appropriate consultation with the operators concerned.

1.4.1 The entry into the holding pattern shall be according to heading in relation to the three entry sectors shown in Figure I-6-1-2, recognizing a zone of flexibility of 5° on either side of the sector boundaries.
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Old 14th Oct 2011, 15:06
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Thanks Curtis.
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