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Improving the industry

Old 20th Dec 2010, 14:45
  #21 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: UK
Posts: 13,799
I certainly agree that student loans should be available to people who want to train as pilots, albeit probably subject to similar controls and entry minima.

Train drivers are an interesting exception; I just had a look online and it does seem to be one of only two job in the railways where the employer pays pretty much all of the selection and training costs - the other is apprentice technicians.

Presumably they do this because there's nobody providing this training by any other means - whilst they can employ well educated engineers, accountants, managers and so-on from outside. Historically the same has been true of pilots - originally there was a ready supply of ex-miltary pilots, whilst as that dried up suppliers have grown up to take the place of that military training. As various colleges have sprung up running ground engineers courses, the airlines of-course have also stopped running their own technician apprenticeships - they don't need to.

Given the salary/working hour benefits for a train driver, what's the betting that if Cabair started running train driver training courses, the railways would stop doing their own driver training and content themselves just to employ Cabair drivers off the new integrated train driving course?

G
Genghis the Engineer is offline  
Old 21st Dec 2010, 02:02
  #22 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: somewhere on this planet
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I got my first gig in the industry sector 20 years ago. All my studies have been paid by Mr government (I mean you) ( for 6 years), and I got 2-3 jobs right after I quit my technical college. I never had to work for free.

I never paid back one dim as it was given free money.
first 4 years, I received 5500$/year, the last 2 years 11'500$/year. It paid my flat and food.

on top of that, my college costs to the government 50'000 $ per student/year due to their equipment, heavy machinery, udge electric bill .

We are simply the best in this industry due to proper training and hassles free for students (no loans to pay back, just study and work hard). Where do you see that in aviation?

now what do I see, kids borrowing 10 times more to finish with no job offers?or to finish with plenty of debts to do a lousy job, and being treated like a slave.

you have to be kidding! we go nowhere with this attitude. become a train driver as a back up before it s too late.

work 10 years as a train pilot, yes you "pilot" a train these days, then with the money saved, spend it flying around if you want.
captainsuperstorm is offline  
Old 23rd Dec 2010, 01:07
  #23 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: EGYD
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The other problem is of course is that there are many student pilots who aren't really suited to professional flying who are however "suitably qualified".

People get so far down the line with so much money invested and time and "dreams" that they carry on into professional training.

They struggle through their CPL and IR training the schools keep flying them, although the school knows that they probably wouldn't recommend them for job if push comes to shove other than providing the mandatory airside pass reference.

Although there are many applicants for such jobs, the vast majority are qualified licence wise but are horribly under skilled. The problem is - they refuse to accept this themselves - and these "pilots" accept whatever flying job they can get and accept any related conditions.
BigGrecian is offline  
Old 23rd Dec 2010, 16:11
  #24 (permalink)  
v6g
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Canada
Age: 43
Posts: 253
Originally Posted by 170to5
And v6g, you could allow unlimited PPL issue, but perhaps only allow a certain number of pilots to then go and get a CPL qualification? as many sub-paraghraphs could be written as you want to get the result you want!
But that would exclude a large number of people who want to (and I believe should have the right to) improve their knowledge and abilities for personal gain (yes there really are people out there who do that).

Originally Posted by 170to5
As for your longer post - I assume then that you aren't a pilot (if you are I think I've flown with you!)- I hope that your industry isn't affected by the 'we'll find someone cheaper' nightmare that flying has sustained - at least not to the level we have.
Au contraire, my friend. I have a CPL and an instructor rating and instruct in my spare time. This is the best of both worlds, I have a well-paid stable career (the recession has been difficult since you ask, but experience and hard work is still remunerated accordingly), I choose when I want to fly, and more importantly, I choose when I don't want to fly.

I did my PPL for fun, built hours for fun. Then I thought, "Why not do the CPL training?" - it was fun and I wanted to improve my skills at my hobby. In the early days I didn't think too much about where it was taking me - it was a hobby.

If there was ever a magical moment when I concluded that it was a career for schmucks, then it was when I was doing my CPL at the same airfield as a large integrated school. I noticed that a large percentage of the integrated kids would spend most of their non-flying time in the afternoons standing outside smoking. Now, I've seen some pretty dumb things, but seeing kids who are investing their parents home equity in a career that depends entirely on prolonged good health, standing around smoking (ignoring the fact they were also pretty close to an aircraft) was when I fully appreciated that aviation today is a career for nave numb-nuts. Add into the mix their Rolexes and BMW's (what kind of life skills are these parents instilling in their children??) and I became more and more convinced I'd made the right choice keeping it as a hobby.

The difference between the "cool-dudes" going into aviation today and the "astute professionals" in proper careers is quite profound.
v6g is offline  
Old 23rd Dec 2010, 17:06
  #25 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Milan, Italy
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standing around smoking (ignoring the fact they were also pretty close to an aircraft) was when I fully appreciated that aviation today is a career for nave numb-nuts. Add into the mix their Rolexes and BMW's (what kind of life skills are these parents instilling in their children??) and I became more and more convinced I'd made the right choice keeping it as a hobby.

The difference between the "cool-dudes" going into aviation today and the "astute professionals" in proper careers is quite profound.
Im not an intergrated student but, I don't smoke, my car is a 1000 Mk1 Ford Capri that I saved up for myself and my watch is a 1980s Raketa made in the USSR brought for all of 30 off E-bay.

Im fully aware of the current situation. Since leaving school I have worked in aviation and currently work for an airline. I have served in the British Army, been made redundant from a light aircraft engineering company and now live with crap T&C's as cabin crew for a well know LCC. I am also now in training to be a Police Special Constable (the back up career option). I may be young but I think I have 'life experience'.

Do you not think you are stereotyping just a little?

Could you also define what a 'proper career' is?
CraigyD is offline  
Old 23rd Dec 2010, 18:34
  #26 (permalink)  
v6g
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Canada
Age: 43
Posts: 253
Originally Posted by CraigyD
Do you not think you are stereotyping just a little?
Sure, I'm generalising. But it's a trend, and it's a fairly accurate generalisation in my recent observations.

Originally Posted by CraigyD
Could you also define what a 'proper career' is?
A "proper career" is one where advanced experience and knowledge is recognised and rewarded appropriately, and where a candidate cannot buy themselves into a more senior position by their willingness to stump up large amounts of cash.

Like the police force, or the army.

A "proper career" is also one where movement across the industry doesn't require the participant to stump up large sums of cash to move jobs. As a police office with experience working in, for example, London, you won't have to pay 20k to gain experience on the streets of, for example, Manchester if you should choose to move north for some reason.
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Old 24th Dec 2010, 13:08
  #27 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: UK
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They struggle through their CPL and IR training the schools keep flying them, although the school knows that they probably wouldn't recommend them for job if push comes to shove other than providing the mandatory airside pass reference.
and of course all FTOs tell their students this rather than take the money.
rmcb is offline  
Old 24th Dec 2010, 13:38
  #28 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: retirementland
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The various ALPAs exist to maintain piloting as one of the last two bastions of elitist entitlement (along with bankers) and the profession consequently attracts people with that sort of superior attitude and greed.
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