Multi Crew Pilot License(MPL) thoughts.....?
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Multi Crew Pilot License(MPL) thoughts.....?
Im interested in peoples thoughts on the MPL. I understand that it allows pilots to have less overall flight experience and PIC hours.
But at the same time from the get go you are taught to fly the way you will fly as an airline pilot which in my opinion is much more uselfull and relevant than VFR and dead reckoning nav which no one uses once they hit the airlines anyway.
This may be an insult or even seem unfair for those guys and gals who had to get their 3000 hrs in the far reaches of the outback flying charter and mail runs but it is the way the industry is moving.
Im only a student and i may be blinded by the prospects of it being a faster track to the airlines but for mine it makes perfect and logical sense to conduct training in this manor, what is the point in learning to fly one way then abandoning it only to learn to fly another. Why not just begin with the later.....?
I would love to hear peoples thoughts on this....
Especially, if there are any out there, some airline hr and recruitment persons.
But at the same time from the get go you are taught to fly the way you will fly as an airline pilot which in my opinion is much more uselfull and relevant than VFR and dead reckoning nav which no one uses once they hit the airlines anyway.
This may be an insult or even seem unfair for those guys and gals who had to get their 3000 hrs in the far reaches of the outback flying charter and mail runs but it is the way the industry is moving.
Im only a student and i may be blinded by the prospects of it being a faster track to the airlines but for mine it makes perfect and logical sense to conduct training in this manor, what is the point in learning to fly one way then abandoning it only to learn to fly another. Why not just begin with the later.....?
I would love to hear peoples thoughts on this....
Especially, if there are any out there, some airline hr and recruitment persons.
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MPL will further reduce piloting skills, airmanship and decision-making skills. The whole point of PIC hours throughout PPL and hour-building towards CPL is that you gain decision-making skills and that you get some experience flying in less-than CAVOK weather, flying into short strips, abroad, etc.
It's called experience. I bet that Captain Pearson (Gimli Glider) wasn't taught how to sideslip a 767 on his type-rating course, yet he knew how to do it and did it properly. Saying that VFR flying is a waste of time can come only from someone without any flying experience - what else is visual or circling approach than pure VFR? Sure there are pilots today that insist on typing even the most basic visual approaches into FMS and then blindly follow the calculated VNAV profile.
I think you should get some real VFR flying from RHS first before considering applying for MPL course. And not to forget, MPL course teaches you how to push buttons on a modern airliner, it doesn't learn you to fly the aircraft. You also won't be subjected to overloading single-pilot IFR, since most of hours during MPL are done multi-crew.
Besides, Oxford's description of MPL course sounds like this is the best training course ever: they claim you will gain the skills of a commercial pilot in only 90 hours, of which half would be in multi-crew environment. So actually in 45 hours single-pilot flying you will have CPL skills while the rest of us, who by that point (completing PPL) only knew enough so not to kill ourselves during hour-buiding, are bunch of loosers?
Remember, you can ONLY get experience by flight time, not by reading books and playing in a flight simulator....
what is the point in learning to fly one way then abandoning it only to learn to fly another
I think you should get some real VFR flying from RHS first before considering applying for MPL course. And not to forget, MPL course teaches you how to push buttons on a modern airliner, it doesn't learn you to fly the aircraft. You also won't be subjected to overloading single-pilot IFR, since most of hours during MPL are done multi-crew.
Besides, Oxford's description of MPL course sounds like this is the best training course ever: they claim you will gain the skills of a commercial pilot in only 90 hours, of which half would be in multi-crew environment. So actually in 45 hours single-pilot flying you will have CPL skills while the rest of us, who by that point (completing PPL) only knew enough so not to kill ourselves during hour-buiding, are bunch of loosers?
Remember, you can ONLY get experience by flight time, not by reading books and playing in a flight simulator....
Call me old fashioned, call me anything you like but to me the MPL is not a real license.
And I don't think too many people in the airline industry think so either.
Try finding a job with it.Not going too happen.
Too many pilots available that have a real license.
And I don't think too many people in the airline industry think so either.
Try finding a job with it.Not going too happen.
Too many pilots available that have a real license.
Apart from anything else, in a 2-crew aeroplane, if one of the pilots becomes incapacitated: which has happened quite a few times over the years, it becomes a single pilot aeroplane for the duration. I'd rather trust somebody with 300 passengers in a (suddenly) single pilot aeroplane who genuinely has a fair number of hundreds of hours commanding single pilot aeroplanes than the chap who has no real experience of that nature.
One of the arguments for MPL is that in recent years most serious accidents in big aeroplanes were down to poor CRM. Technically this is true, but quite probably because the pilots up to now have had the handling and problem solving skills which meant that CRM was the only thing left for them to screw up on a regular basis. The MPL will re-introduce all the potentials for error that had been eliminated previously by hour-building.
So far, the only airline professional who I've met who really seemed to believe honestly in MPL was a recruiter for BA who had a background in accountancy then HR. I've not met a single professional pilot who thought well of it. I also hang around with quite a few aviation safety researchers, who are all fairly bemused at the idea whilst so far as I know nobody has published any peer-reviewed research into its supposed benefits or demerits, so technically we're all just guessing (but especially those who claim it will work).
G
One of the arguments for MPL is that in recent years most serious accidents in big aeroplanes were down to poor CRM. Technically this is true, but quite probably because the pilots up to now have had the handling and problem solving skills which meant that CRM was the only thing left for them to screw up on a regular basis. The MPL will re-introduce all the potentials for error that had been eliminated previously by hour-building.
So far, the only airline professional who I've met who really seemed to believe honestly in MPL was a recruiter for BA who had a background in accountancy then HR. I've not met a single professional pilot who thought well of it. I also hang around with quite a few aviation safety researchers, who are all fairly bemused at the idea whilst so far as I know nobody has published any peer-reviewed research into its supposed benefits or demerits, so technically we're all just guessing (but especially those who claim it will work).
G
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FYI, I am an MPL cadet & until this moment, with all of what was said...I still believe its the right choice, I am coming from a family of Aviators & ALL of them believe in the MPL. Most of my classmates are sons of pilots & the other guys who joined recently are coming from an Aviation background, not a single one of us has any doubts about the Success of the license. 
There are some MPL graduates who are Flying, while the rest got interviewed by different Airlines...And I am proud to say most (if not All) of them got accepted & are going to start flying the jets soon.
BTW, Single Pilot Ops & Pilot incapacitation are included in our training (From MCC to Level D sim). Getting 50 hrs of VFR in a Cessna 172 & then 20hrs IFR on the Cessna again & then 120 Hrs of IFR on an A320 (Actual Flying time) sounds fair enough to deal with IFR/VFR problem. Having 110 hours of A320 Level D Sim, Would take you to the limits of all kinds of Ops (110 hrs...you'll learn the airplane even if you were observing!)
Lets wait & See, I am going to graduate with an MPL by the end of the year...
There are some MPL graduates who are Flying, while the rest got interviewed by different Airlines...And I am proud to say most (if not All) of them got accepted & are going to start flying the jets soon.
BTW, Single Pilot Ops & Pilot incapacitation are included in our training (From MCC to Level D sim). Getting 50 hrs of VFR in a Cessna 172 & then 20hrs IFR on the Cessna again & then 120 Hrs of IFR on an A320 (Actual Flying time) sounds fair enough to deal with IFR/VFR problem. Having 110 hours of A320 Level D Sim, Would take you to the limits of all kinds of Ops (110 hrs...you'll learn the airplane even if you were observing!)
Lets wait & See, I am going to graduate with an MPL by the end of the year...
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Relax malirm boy, nobody said it's not the right choice. It's just not the right choice NOWADAYS and until only god knows when! That simple. & since you and your mates are the descendants of the "Almighty Aviation Families" in your part of the world, then it's not really a big deal if you have MPL whatsoever, is it?
Good luck.
Good luck.
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Originally Posted by malirm
BTW, Single Pilot Ops & Pilot incapacitation are included in our training (From MCC to Level D sim).
You cannot compare "single pilot ops training" with 100 PIC hours required for issue of real (CPL) licence, sorry.
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There are two sets of numbers which the MPL graduates will generate. The first is the cost. To a great extent, our bean counting friends have virtually eliminated initial licence and type training as a cost - most prospective employees have already paid for this. So there are no savings here for many operators. So the MPL will only really appeal to those airlines who foot the bill for cadet training. And it is amongst these airlines that the secondary cost will be felt. The price of smoking holes. We have already had bent metal generated by a P2F scheme.
May I also suggest that MPL will only work if the the bod in the LHS seat is a 'real' captain and as a crew fly the aircraft under real LOFT conditions. Only the route should be announced beforehand and certainly not the WX or the failures. Flying well documented and pre-rehearsed failures in the sim. should always result in reasonable outcomes. Unfortunately, real life is so unfair. The real poo often arrives in well disguised packets and sorting it out often requires creative uses of checklists, interesting decisions and above all a certain degree of airmanship. To fast track the guy in the RHS requires the victim to absorb a great deal of experience in very little time. The good news is, it is very difficult to hide a large aircraft prang, so we'll all find out how good the MPL system is before long. I just hope nobody gets hurt while the MPL holders learn to fly.
May I also suggest that MPL will only work if the the bod in the LHS seat is a 'real' captain and as a crew fly the aircraft under real LOFT conditions. Only the route should be announced beforehand and certainly not the WX or the failures. Flying well documented and pre-rehearsed failures in the sim. should always result in reasonable outcomes. Unfortunately, real life is so unfair. The real poo often arrives in well disguised packets and sorting it out often requires creative uses of checklists, interesting decisions and above all a certain degree of airmanship. To fast track the guy in the RHS requires the victim to absorb a great deal of experience in very little time. The good news is, it is very difficult to hide a large aircraft prang, so we'll all find out how good the MPL system is before long. I just hope nobody gets hurt while the MPL holders learn to fly.
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A CPL/IR - MPL fusion?
This is an interesting topic. I did some research in to the MPL for my dissertation a couple of years ago. Without going in to detail, I think that there are benefits to it over the current CPL/IR route. However, let me point out that I am an MPL sceptic.
I don't claim to have the answer to flight training, but what I do know is that pilot training has not had any fundamental changes made to it since the Chicago Convention in 1944. I think that it is outdated when you consider that in 1944 the most common airliner was a DC-3, not an A320.
I am of the belief that some sort of fusion between the current CPL/IR system and the MPL needs to occur - I do not have the authority nor the experience to say what the best alternative is (I'm a Flight Data Analyst with a PPL), but does anyone agree that something needs to change in order to provide new low-hour FO's with the best possible training, for both multi-crew and single-crew operations?
I just don't like the idea of going to the likes of CTC/OAA/FTE etc on an 18 month ab initio course and not doing any multi-crew flying until 13/14 months have gone by and I've got a CPL/IR.
I don't claim to have the answer to flight training, but what I do know is that pilot training has not had any fundamental changes made to it since the Chicago Convention in 1944. I think that it is outdated when you consider that in 1944 the most common airliner was a DC-3, not an A320.
I am of the belief that some sort of fusion between the current CPL/IR system and the MPL needs to occur - I do not have the authority nor the experience to say what the best alternative is (I'm a Flight Data Analyst with a PPL), but does anyone agree that something needs to change in order to provide new low-hour FO's with the best possible training, for both multi-crew and single-crew operations?
I just don't like the idea of going to the likes of CTC/OAA/FTE etc on an 18 month ab initio course and not doing any multi-crew flying until 13/14 months have gone by and I've got a CPL/IR.
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It genuinely frightens me to think that a newly qualified MPL pilot could find themselves flying single pilot due to an incapacitation. In the thick of crap weather, on mimumums.....severce icing....at night..into some non precision airfield somewhere with no radar coverage....perhaps low on fuel with an alternate some place far far away. Even with very limited several hundred airline hours operational experience now under my belt(and several hundred PIC general aviation hours behind me)....it genuinely puts the wind right up me that one day soon it might actually happen to me. Sitting playing in a nice comfy sim looking at pretty flashing lights is one thing....but real world is a horrible scary thought when the **** does actually hit the fan. Its like learning to drive a car in a car park and then suddenly being let loose on the M25...at night...in the pissing rain with 5 people squashed in the back. There are many jobs out there that dont require experience....flying is not one of them. I havent met one pilot yet who is in favour of this MPL....harsh but true im afraid. For the chap wo said - "BTW, Single Pilot Ops & Pilot incapacitation are included in our training (From MCC to Level D sim)" - good luck mate
Oh and for those who think incapacitations dont happen....2 in the same week where I work.
Oh and for those who think incapacitations dont happen....2 in the same week where I work.
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Cant see it makes any difference. A newly qualified pilot will find it challenging even if he has spent 50 hrs flying round the cabbage patch. Maybe better to have spent some time in a proper sim flying ndb approaches in a large aircraft.
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I've thought more about this issue today and JP_Safety makes a good point. As a fare paying pap, you need to have a flight crew are are frightened/concerned enough not to do anything really stupid. The bright young things, newly graduated from their academies, have not been exposed to enough unpleasantness to make them wary or at least spot the warning signs. An MPL's experience will be even less. Yet our training system does nothing to help bridge the experience gap. The current CPL training system is basically pointless. Spend enough and you can get virtually any plonker through the hoops. So may I suggest that the twin flying, instrument flying, CPL handling and MCC elements of CPL courses are all scrapped and replaced with an initial Multi-crew aircraft type rating. Here you will learn how to fly a twin (or triple etc.), fly multi-crew and a type which you will be paid on. Make it so that only airline company employees can do the course. Then thousands will be saved by all. Airlines will have the employees they want, prospective employees will no longer waste vast amounts of cash on pointless type ratings and the training will be more relevant.
Yes! there are fairies are at the bottom of my garden.
Yes! there are fairies are at the bottom of my garden.
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Ladies and Gents,
I am a career biz jet pilot. I know that my side of the industry is terrified of what might come if training goes almost exclusively to MPL. Let me give you an example of flying single pilot in a multi-crew environment...
The aircraft have almost identical avionic and system capabilities to the airliners. The type I was flying at this time was a short haul (Europe only) 8 seater EFIS jet. We were tasked with positioning the aircraft for about 1 hour to a VFR only airfield. Picking up 3 pax and then flying them to Nice.
We checked all NOTAM's, weather and even phoned the tower at the pick up point to check the weather and make sure we had the required fire cover. This is because that airfield does not normally have the required cover for that type. They confirmed their weather and their fire cover. Off we set.
We left the airway and went to the AG operator at the airport. We were then told that we did not have the required fire cover because one of the fire men was late and they couldn't crew one of their trucks. We were told it was ok to land because we were just positioning empty.
This set up a massive problem because we were flying AOC, even when empty. I had to check the ops manual and get on the sat phone to operations and 'sort something out pretty damn quick'. Either get some more fire cover, get some sort of permission to land or divert to a closeish airport and tell the pax.
Well, my FO had only been flying jets for around 4 or 5 months and had maybe a maximum of 150 hours jet.
Had he been a fresh MPL holder, I would have been very concerned indeed. But since this guy had probably 2000 hours of instructing and MEP charter experience I was confident he could handle my plan.
I tasked him with flying a constant level circuit over the airfield and varying the width of the circuit each time so as to not annoy the neighbors at 9am on that beautiful sunny sunday morning.
He took the aircraft and all comms. Of course the auto-pilot was being used, but since this was all uncontrolled airspace, he and I maintained a keen look-out while he followed through on the yoke in case immediate action was required to avoid the multitude of bug smashers. We also lowered the second stage of flap and safely got our speed back to 140kts. As slow as we could safely fly to match our speed better to the predominant traffic in that area.
He had the flying and decision making skills for me to task him and trust him so I could liaise with our ops on the sat phone and with various ATC agencies on comm 2 to arrange a smooth and unrushed divert when the time came.
Great work by him and a great example of where the single pilot skills came in, even in a multi-crew environment.
He and I had a similar experience while avoiding CB's low level after breaking off an approach into an airfield that then closed to us due to the weather.
In my simple and humble opinion, there is never any comparison for experience. A new pilot out of flight school has no experience and now they want to make that even less?
Happy landings
I am a career biz jet pilot. I know that my side of the industry is terrified of what might come if training goes almost exclusively to MPL. Let me give you an example of flying single pilot in a multi-crew environment...
The aircraft have almost identical avionic and system capabilities to the airliners. The type I was flying at this time was a short haul (Europe only) 8 seater EFIS jet. We were tasked with positioning the aircraft for about 1 hour to a VFR only airfield. Picking up 3 pax and then flying them to Nice.
We checked all NOTAM's, weather and even phoned the tower at the pick up point to check the weather and make sure we had the required fire cover. This is because that airfield does not normally have the required cover for that type. They confirmed their weather and their fire cover. Off we set.
We left the airway and went to the AG operator at the airport. We were then told that we did not have the required fire cover because one of the fire men was late and they couldn't crew one of their trucks. We were told it was ok to land because we were just positioning empty.
This set up a massive problem because we were flying AOC, even when empty. I had to check the ops manual and get on the sat phone to operations and 'sort something out pretty damn quick'. Either get some more fire cover, get some sort of permission to land or divert to a closeish airport and tell the pax.
Well, my FO had only been flying jets for around 4 or 5 months and had maybe a maximum of 150 hours jet.
Had he been a fresh MPL holder, I would have been very concerned indeed. But since this guy had probably 2000 hours of instructing and MEP charter experience I was confident he could handle my plan.
I tasked him with flying a constant level circuit over the airfield and varying the width of the circuit each time so as to not annoy the neighbors at 9am on that beautiful sunny sunday morning.
He took the aircraft and all comms. Of course the auto-pilot was being used, but since this was all uncontrolled airspace, he and I maintained a keen look-out while he followed through on the yoke in case immediate action was required to avoid the multitude of bug smashers. We also lowered the second stage of flap and safely got our speed back to 140kts. As slow as we could safely fly to match our speed better to the predominant traffic in that area.
He had the flying and decision making skills for me to task him and trust him so I could liaise with our ops on the sat phone and with various ATC agencies on comm 2 to arrange a smooth and unrushed divert when the time came.
Great work by him and a great example of where the single pilot skills came in, even in a multi-crew environment.
He and I had a similar experience while avoiding CB's low level after breaking off an approach into an airfield that then closed to us due to the weather.
In my simple and humble opinion, there is never any comparison for experience. A new pilot out of flight school has no experience and now they want to make that even less?
Happy landings
PPRuNe Handmaiden
Potatowings, exactly.
(another bizjet pilot)
(another bizjet pilot)
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I can't see how any Bizjet organisation would end up employing a MPL pilot unless the pilot had been sponsored by an airline and had completed their time with them. After that they would have more hours and experience and would be in the same position as any pilot.
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"After that they would have more hours and experience and would be in the same position as any pilot."
Having experience with the MPL and CTC/OAA trainning system I don't believe the MPL pilot will ever have the experience and training that potatowings is talking about. The Cadets are Mothered through the course and given all the answers to the questions so they can pass their exams, they then enter a budget airline that can't afford to train them and they sit in the RHS because the law says they have to be there.
When will they ever have to make decisions and fly like potatowings is talking about?
Having experience with the MPL and CTC/OAA trainning system I don't believe the MPL pilot will ever have the experience and training that potatowings is talking about. The Cadets are Mothered through the course and given all the answers to the questions so they can pass their exams, they then enter a budget airline that can't afford to train them and they sit in the RHS because the law says they have to be there.
When will they ever have to make decisions and fly like potatowings is talking about?
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Reading the comments further, I get the impression that people seem to think the primary role of the right hand seat of a jet is to give low time pilots experience. It is not there for this reason.
The right hand seat of a jet is there because it is required due to the complexity of the job at hand AND when required to provide system redundancy. When one engine fails, there is another engine to keep us flying until we can land safely. When one PFD fails, there is another one to keep us flying until we can land safely. When a pilots single heart fails (poor system design, no redundancy) then there is another pilot there to keep us flying until we can land safely.
The right hand seat of a jet is there to provide a system cross check between the two crews and to provide redundancy in the event of incapacitation. Incidentally, incapacitation is not just caused by a serious medical complaint. I have seen it where one crew member develops diarrhea after a night stop. They are ineffective as a crew member and thus the flight is more or less single pilot. I have seen 1 case and heard of several where a crew member becomes overloaded during the later stages of a flight. This takes the other pilot to help unload them and take some of the work.
A pilot with experienced operating in the pre-defined simulator training that is becoming more and more popular with these new licences will be hard pressed to behave the same way as a pilot that has been required to gain at least some experience in single pilot flying where a workload overload is not an option.
The other benefit of flying in the right hand seat is to provide experience to work a pilot up to command. Learning to make decisions and experiencing several scenarios at the hand of experienced Captains is fantastic.
It concerns me greatly that the right hand seat is being viewed as a learning environment in normal operations rather than a professional environment with a fully competent and capable experienced pilot. The 'right seat pilot' should be a Captain in waiting, not a co-pilot in training.
Just my 2p's worth.
The right hand seat of a jet is there because it is required due to the complexity of the job at hand AND when required to provide system redundancy. When one engine fails, there is another engine to keep us flying until we can land safely. When one PFD fails, there is another one to keep us flying until we can land safely. When a pilots single heart fails (poor system design, no redundancy) then there is another pilot there to keep us flying until we can land safely.
The right hand seat of a jet is there to provide a system cross check between the two crews and to provide redundancy in the event of incapacitation. Incidentally, incapacitation is not just caused by a serious medical complaint. I have seen it where one crew member develops diarrhea after a night stop. They are ineffective as a crew member and thus the flight is more or less single pilot. I have seen 1 case and heard of several where a crew member becomes overloaded during the later stages of a flight. This takes the other pilot to help unload them and take some of the work.
A pilot with experienced operating in the pre-defined simulator training that is becoming more and more popular with these new licences will be hard pressed to behave the same way as a pilot that has been required to gain at least some experience in single pilot flying where a workload overload is not an option.
The other benefit of flying in the right hand seat is to provide experience to work a pilot up to command. Learning to make decisions and experiencing several scenarios at the hand of experienced Captains is fantastic.
It concerns me greatly that the right hand seat is being viewed as a learning environment in normal operations rather than a professional environment with a fully competent and capable experienced pilot. The 'right seat pilot' should be a Captain in waiting, not a co-pilot in training.
Just my 2p's worth.
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Right on potatowings. If you don't mind; I'd like to use your line, "The 'right seat pilot' should be a Captain in waiting, not a co-pilot in training" to further inspire and motivate my students. Thanks.
Potatowings says that if the F/O had been a new MPL holder he would have been very concerned in the situation he found himself in, and then goes on to suggest that it was the fact that the F/O he was flying with had 2000 hours of MEP/instructing etc that everything went OK.
How would it have gone if he had been a new CPL/IR holder with no experience other than an integrated course. You cannot say that the MPL is no good because a graduate from the course is not as good as a CPL/IR holder with several hundred hours on jets and 2000 hours of other flying since gaining a CPL.
If you want to compare the two licenses then you have to compare the standards when the course is completed ie about 200 hrs ish of light aircraft flying then a type rating for the traditional route or about 200 hrs ish of mixed sim and light aircraft but mainly sim then a type rating for the MPL. I would suggest that the only people qualified to make that comparison would be the line captains or training captains at airlines such as flybe who will be flying with graduates from both schemes.
How would it have gone if he had been a new CPL/IR holder with no experience other than an integrated course. You cannot say that the MPL is no good because a graduate from the course is not as good as a CPL/IR holder with several hundred hours on jets and 2000 hours of other flying since gaining a CPL.
If you want to compare the two licenses then you have to compare the standards when the course is completed ie about 200 hrs ish of light aircraft flying then a type rating for the traditional route or about 200 hrs ish of mixed sim and light aircraft but mainly sim then a type rating for the MPL. I would suggest that the only people qualified to make that comparison would be the line captains or training captains at airlines such as flybe who will be flying with graduates from both schemes.