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Modular V Integrated (Merged) - Look here before starting a new thread!

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Modular V Integrated (Merged) - Look here before starting a new thread!

Old 9th Sep 2018, 12:41
  #881 (permalink)  
 
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All,

I am in my early thirties, in full time employment but looking for a career change. I am based in the UK. I have spent a bit of time interpreting and understanding the costs for my own benefit and thought Iíd share my work. In the PDF attachement below is a summary document that details the different training routes and associated costs.

These costings and comparisons are my judgement only and should not be used to actually inform any decisions! Go and talk to a financial adviser!

My costings are specific to my situation and particularly note that:

∑ I have a mortgage therefore any accommodation costs will be in addition to this.

∑ My job currently pays ~£45,000pa. Doing a full time training course would obviously stop me earning.

There are three flavours of training that I have considered:
  • Integrated ATPL that is not part of a cadet programme
  • Integrated MPL as part of generation easyJet cadet programme
  • Modular ATPL
The integrated ATPL is the course at Oxford. The Integrated MPL with generation easyJet cadet programme is the L3 course. I have based the modular costs on various posted costings and Flying Time Aviation.

On the easyJet MPL course there is a training bond of £69,000 that MAY get paid back to you over the course of 7 to 9 years (if you are based in the UK). I have very little further information on this but I have included as a consideration at face value.

Itís worth noting as well that I think in a lot of the proposed costings put forward on this thread for a modular ATPL they omit the cost of MCC and type rating, although many allude to the fact they have a lot of money left over (compared to an integrated course) to complete it.

For both the integrated routes without cadet programme and the modular ATPL a lot of the posts seem to forget to consider the ďdownĒ time between finishing the training and getting a pilot job. This is obviously mitigated somewhat if you stay in current employment while training (on a modular course) as you arenít necessarily ďlosingĒ anything (still getting paid £45,000pa) but if you enter in to training without a job you have the uncertainty at the end of training and potentially a significant period where you arenít earning. A year out of employment would quickly make the costs significantly higher when looked at as a whole.

The big thing that I havenít accounted for is loan repayment costs, particularly interest. This is obviously a major flaw in the ďtotal costĒ value. I have assumed that the costs are based on self funding up front. Again, talk to a financial adviser.


In summary:

Actually comparing the costs in my calculations you can see that for me the modular route is much cheaper (£84,000 compared to £180,000+). However, this assumes that I can complete the modular course all while working full time. I think itís doable but would be challenging! I think for anyone already in employment, particularly with a significant salary, it doesnít make any sense to go down the integrated route. Instead if you keep your current job while going down the modular route is by far the most sensible option. What I think is interesting is that by my calculations the total cost of training for a modular course at £84,000 isnít as significant a difference to the integrated MPL course training cost at £100,000 as many would have you believe.

For a young person with no other financial commitments and no significant income yet I could see how a cadet based integrated MPL course could actually be the most attractive option. Especially given that there is a semi-guaranteed job at the end (with associated guaranteed salary), there is no double accounting for accommodation (you have to live somewhere) and the possibility of some of the training costs being repaid to you via the training bond (maybe?!). Obviously this raises the issue of a young person with no significant income being able to raise the funds!

I see absolutely no benefit in undertaking an integrated course that ISNíT a cadet course, either ATPL or MPL. You have all of the negative costs without any of the guaranteed employment at the end (even noting the links that the training centres have to place students in to airline jobs at the end). In addition, a review of the available jobs shows a significant reduction in the number of airlines that employ newly qualified pilots, for example easyJet requires a minimum of 500 hours, therefore employment as a new pilot is really only available via the cadet programme.

The final thing to mention is of course non-financial considerations. For me, with a house, wife and commitments in the UK, swanning off for a few months to go flying in NZ/Europe and training in London/Oxford isnít actually that appealing. This is a further draw to the modular approach where I can choose my training locations.
Attached Files
File Type: pdf
Pilot_Training_Costings.pdf (426.4 KB, 98 views)
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Old 9th Sep 2018, 18:08
  #882 (permalink)  
 
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Hi Negan,

My costings do assume a fATPL costs about £54k based on training in the UK (which is a little bit more than training in Europe). I've assumed £30k for a A320 type rating to get to the £84k total for a modular course. The idea is that gives equivalent qualifications to the easyJet MPL cadet scheme where you are type rated ready for line flying. Unfortunatley, it's very difficult to find an accurate value for the type rating so that's a bit of an approximate value.
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Old 10th Sep 2018, 09:25
  #883 (permalink)  
 
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Hi, clearly you're doing your homework and youryo at the 'figuring out of this is a good idea' stage - so allow me to pay devils advocate.

1 - don't even think about any of it until you have a class one medical in your hand and a trial lesson or two under your belt.

2 - this career does favour the young and adventurous. If you don't like the idea of 'swanning off' - is this the career for you? The golden rule is you apply for every job and take the first one offered, where ever that happens to be. And if that happens to be Flybe then you'll be looking at a £10k pay cut for a while.

3 - Doing it all part time is a great idea, if you can work, study, sleep, repeat. As soon as you throw in any kind of a life and family, it all goes to rat-**** so one of those is going to suffer. You want to be a pilot - which means you'll be getting a divorce soon anyway.

4 - The current job climate is the best there has been for decades - paying for a type rating should be consigned to the dustbin of history by the time you get through.
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Old 17th Sep 2018, 16:47
  #884 (permalink)  
 
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FTE Jerez...Worth?

** DELETED **

Last edited by therodri2; 5th Dec 2022 at 17:36.
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Old 18th Sep 2018, 07:51
  #885 (permalink)  
 
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To Potential Pilot,
Take on board what "rudestuff" has said below.
If you can make your "Modular" plan work - and it will be tough going - there will be a lot of domestic upheaval involved when you do eventually get your first job as it will be more than likely that you will have to move to be near your job or fund local accommodation on a smaller salary than you are currently on. Does your wife also have a career? Will she be prepared to move and also to live on much less money? Is it worth all of this just to fly a plane? Look hard at the last part of item 3. You sound as if you are doing just fine on £45K and you could just do a PPL with add on ratings then get a group share in a plane close to your home and fly when you want to - not when you are told to. Airline rosters play havoc with a personal life and you will be flying (its just a job at the end of the day) at all sorts of times of the day and maybe not be at home for special occasions.
This career is really only suitable for young and single people.
Take heed![

QUOTE=rudestuff;10245518]Hi, clearly you're doing your homework and your at the 'figuring out of this is a good idea' stage - so allow me to pay devils advocate.

1 - don't even think about any of it until you have a class one medical in your hand and a trial lesson or two under your belt.

2 - this career does favour the young and adventurous. If you don't like the idea of 'swanning off' - is this the career for you? The golden rule is you apply for every job and take the first one offered, where ever that happens to be. And if that happens to be Flybe then you'll be looking at a £10k pay cut for a while.

3 - Doing it all part time is a great idea, if you can work, study, sleep, repeat. As soon as you throw in any kind of a life and family, it all goes to rat-**** so one of those is going to suffer. You want to be a pilot - which means you'll be getting a divorce soon anyway.

4 - The current job climate is the best there has been for decades - paying for a type rating should be consigned to the dustbin of history by the time you get through.[/QUOTE]
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Old 18th Sep 2018, 12:00
  #886 (permalink)  
 
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I'm in my mid-twenties and I'm tempted to start modular over the next six months or so, there are however a few practicalities that I'm thinking about.

Piloting is the only career that I would rather do than my current job (train driving), that means I'm going to want a way back in to my current career if the airline world doesn't work out or if I can't find a job. It might be difficult to get back into a train driving career if I've been out of the driving cab for more than 12-18 months.

I have a three-month notice period, this is standard in my job regardless of employer. Would this be a problem for airlines looking to recruit? I certainly know of one or two cadet programmes it could potentially rule me out of.

It would be difficult to get six weeks off straight to do a JOC-MCC (particularly an APS one), there's a possibility that I would need to resign to start one of these (though it is a very long way off to be honest). A lot of the leave at my work (about 4/7ths of it) is pre-allocated by the employer, including a two weeks block.

I am tempted by the idea of pursuing the PPL, then doing CPL theory and an FI rating and instructing part-time around my current job for a couple of years, then if/when I did the MCC-JOC, I'd potentially have something to go full-time to providing an income of sorts (albeit perhaps limited). A lot of cadet programmes (I'm thinking any loan guaranteed/fully funded ones only if I'd reached this point) say that a candidate must not have started ATPL theory, would a CPL theory/FI rating be a bit much for them? I did happen to meet a microlight instructor at a cadet programme assessment but that's a wholly different licencing scenario.

Alternatively, I could look to save for the next five years or so and look to do one of the self-funded mentored cadet programmes up-front cash, albeit with a very limited powered flying background. No mortgage or spouse/kids at the moment.
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Old 18th Sep 2018, 12:07
  #887 (permalink)  
 
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Hello All,

I’m trying to gather various information on schools to start my PPL with with the vision of going on to do the other modules. I already have a class 1 and am stuck between a few schools.

Does anyone have any information on flyteam.hu? They are a small outfit operating out of Hungary who seem to have the time to devote to me wanting to do the module in one bash and offer distance learning that is imperative for my job.

Also worth mentioning that the price is decent as well.

Cheers.
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Old 18th Sep 2018, 12:17
  #888 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Chris the Robot
I'm in my mid-twenties and I'm tempted to start modular over the next six months or so, there are however a few practicalities that I'm thinking about.

Piloting is the only career that I would rather do than my current job (train driving), that means I'm going to want a way back in to my current career if the airline world doesn't work out or if I can't find a job. It might be difficult to get back into a train driving career if I've been out of the driving cab for more than 12-18 months.

I have a three-month notice period, this is standard in my job regardless of employer. Would this be a problem for airlines looking to recruit? I certainly know of one or two cadet programmes it could potentially rule me out of.

It would be difficult to get six weeks off straight to do a JOC-MCC (particularly an APS one), there's a possibility that I would need to resign to start one of these (though it is a very long way off to be honest). A lot of the leave at my work (about 4/7ths of it) is pre-allocated by the employer, including a two weeks block.

I am tempted by the idea of pursuing the PPL, then doing CPL theory and an FI rating and instructing part-time around my current job for a couple of years, then if/when I did the MCC-JOC, I'd potentially have something to go full-time to providing an income of sorts (albeit perhaps limited). A lot of cadet programmes (I'm thinking any loan guaranteed/fully funded ones only if I'd reached this point) say that a candidate must not have started ATPL theory, would a CPL theory/FI rating be a bit much for them? I did happen to meet a microlight instructor at a cadet programme assessment but that's a wholly different licencing scenario.

Alternatively, I could look to save for the next five years or so and look to do one of the self-funded mentored cadet programmes up-front cash, albeit with a very limited powered flying background. No mortgage or spouse/kids at the moment.
Just take it one step at a time...do your PPL, see how you feel, and how much money you have, and then go from there. The only "job quitting" point is after ATPL theory and hours building. By that point you will have a better idea of the market, and if you're doing all those courses and spending all that money, you'll want a job flying at the end of it any way, and not hal your foot in the door and half out....the ratings expire etc. So I think it is best to plan for not going back to your current job after it. Well that is my plan at the moment any way.

Out of interest how old are you? Mid 25 + waiting 5 years is 30, and OK. Any older, and I would say don't wait 5 years. I am 28, and hope to finish by 30...I feel like I'm on the old side for sure.
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Old 26th Sep 2018, 15:23
  #889 (permalink)  
 
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Thank you for the advice, I've taken a few days to think things through and simply going for a PPL at this point makes good sense. It'll give me an idea of what sort of workload to expect, and will likely function as a good "aptitude test" in it's own way.

I've always wanted to fly recreationally anyway. In five years I'd be nearly 32, scary how quickly time passes by.

Knowing my luck, if I did go down the modular route, the big airlines would probably open up the fully sponsored route again...
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Old 17th Dec 2018, 10:21
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MPL with Alpha Aviation Academy and Air Arabia

Hi all! wanted to ask your advise on the MPL Licence? Pro's and Con's? I'm a newbie entering this field straight after high school...

Seems a catch22 to me in some respects after googling for a week all the routes to becoming a commercial airline pilot...traditional route of PPL and subsequent licences at a flight school means i walk away with frozen licence and I have to find a way to get the 1500 hours or an MPL where i get the flying hours but perhaps MPL is not widely recognised and may be an issue if later on i want to progress to say Emirates?

advise pls in general and specifically this school would be greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance
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Old 3rd Jan 2019, 18:24
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modular courses

Hello,

I've seen one of your post about modular courses.
I have a frozen ATPL, I'm looking for a flight school.
I'm in France but I'd like to go in a foreign country.
If you have any advice I would be very grateful.
As you can see my english is not perfect ahah that's why I'd like to move from France but actually I only know diamond flight academy.
The UK is too expensive.

Thanks for your answer,
Happy new year,
Romain
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Old 30th Jan 2019, 11:47
  #892 (permalink)  
 
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Greeks in Poland

Hello guys, i would like to urge any Greek (and not only ) intend to start aviation training in Poland do not hesitate to contact me for help or informations. I would be happy to help anytime.
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Old 23rd Feb 2019, 19:56
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Integrated vs. Modular? Czech vs. Other?

Hello gentlemen,

I am making a (rather late, I'm 33) career switch into aviation. I am halfway through my PPL and next summer I want to start my route/track to my ATPL. I quit my job so I am gonna spend all my time to the ATPL training. I have two major questions:
1. Is it better to do Integrated ATPL or Modular ATPL? What's the perception of the airlines on this?
2. What is the perception of the airlines on the Czech Schools? And does anybody know a Czech school that offers an Integrated ATPL in less than 3 years? I can only find Czech Aviation Training Centre. The other ones who offer an Integrated ATPL make you take it in a 3 years bachelor degree or try to push towards Modular ATPL for some reason... Does anybody have an opinion on the quality of the aformentioned CATC?

PM me if you please.

Thank you very much for all helpful information, and even for any effort at all!

Best regards.

==========================
You canít use the Private Messaging system, add url links or images until you have an established posting history.
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Old 24th Feb 2019, 13:11
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Hi everyone

I am 20 years old and I am going to start pursuing my dream when I get my class 1 medical issued. I have decided to go modular, the aviation business seems to be good and stable (if brexit doesn't affect anything in EASA). I have the funds to do integrated, but after all I decided to go modular mostly because of the price, the flexibility and opportunity to start with flying than theory.

I'll start PPL in Southern Spain, after that hour building (110ish PIC) and ATPL theory full time. After this, I've planned to do the CPL ME/IR in Sweden, Diamond Flight Academy and after getting these licenses, APS MCC probably in SKY4U in Berlin. My dream would be RYR/SunExpress or even Norwegian if they have low hour pilot jobs available at that time. Modular can also be done in a quicker pace than in some integrated ones and in every integrated program I've seen, they start with the theory. In my opinion, it is better to start with flying and during the theory it is also important to fly to "maintain" the motivation.

I hope to hear some opinions about my "route" to the flight deck and also some other schools which are as good as (or better than) DFA in Sweden and APS MCC.

FuturePilot6
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Old 24th Feb 2019, 16:51
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Originally Posted by FuturePilot6
the aviation business seems to be good and stable (if brexit doesn't affect anything in EASA).
Monarch, Air Berlin, Alitalia, Primera, FlyBMI, Flybe, Germania, Cobalt, Small Planet... and that's not even all of them.

Wow and Norwegian are in very big trouble too.


So I would be careful about saying the aviation business seems to be good and stable.
We're on the edge of another recession and airlines are the canary in the coalmine...
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Old 4th Mar 2019, 18:12
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ATPLís RECENT EXPERIENCE of completing them in 6-8 months via Dist Learning.


Posted this yesterday: was moved to the backend one of the stickies page 46!! Much of the information is about 9 years old or further back. As atpls have undergone changes I Wanted it as a stand alone question anyway I digress. So distant learners are YOU THERE??


Hi fellow Ppruners; I have a few questions regarding atpls directed at the distance learners amongst the community.

those of you that are doing it distant learning; is there anybody who is comleteing the course within 6-8 months? (in the UK) I would like to hear from you!!
As the main atpl providers are quoting 10 to 18 months. ( that is average 15 hours a week for 3 months minimum )I understand that most people will have commitments outside aviation and try to fit it around work etc.

Also the new style of questions are now a completely different animal to previous years and thus questions are not so predictable; thus students now have to think more and rely on their own knowledge; which must be up to scratch come exam time.

Is anybody studying the distance learning but full time from home i.e. putting in about 30 hours a week of self study?? does your school allow for this or is their course structured so it is all metered out and they can control how long a student has to study before a revision week.

it seem to me that unless you can do a residential course for 6 months you are stuck with the long and protracted distance learning time frame anyone with recent experience contrary to this?

I would be a mature student and would like to get through them as quickly as possible but also understand that they are not to be underestimated in effort and volume of information.

I look forward to you replies

many thanks

Last edited by Pilot.21; 5th Mar 2019 at 10:18. Reason: Clearer title
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Old 7th Mar 2019, 14:14
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Weather dependant, but my instructors weren't keen to go above 2 hours of lessons a day when learning new things. Then once building hours you could probably do 3-5 hours a day.
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Old 12th Mar 2019, 13:14
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I didnít want to start a new thread but hoping somebody can offer some advice -

I have started my PPL and will build hours at my local flying school (Stapleford) and wish to eventually complete an ATPL.

If I complete the rest of my modules (Theory through MCC) with a flight school such as CAE/L3/FTA, will I be able to take advantage of their relationships with airlines?

Is it better to do all modules at the same school? Or all flying at one school and theory elsewhere?

thanks!

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Old 13th Mar 2019, 09:35
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Originally Posted by FlyingGreek
The big schools may find you a job, but their priority is to their airline tagged cadets and integrated students so you would be behind them both in the pecking order throughout your training.

Stapleford have a good reputation among airlines and have one of the best CPL ME IR courses in the country with a very very high 1st series pass rate.

They won't sugarcoat anything and will be honest with you all the time without the sales pitch you will see from the big schools.

I would speak to the students there who are doing the advanced courses and see what their opinion is.
Great, thank you.

So after 24 months, with my shiny license in hand. It is then a case of waiting for a newly qualified DEP role to become available (like BAís current one) or do you send CVs around?
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Old 13th Mar 2019, 13:14
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Originally Posted by FlyingGreek
Normally yes, I would advise doing something like Wings Alliance who would monitor your progress all the way and then when you do the MCC they will assist you in your CV, interviews and finding you a job. Kura Aviation do something similar but only once you do their MCC course.
I am actually considering going through WA. Presumably they add quite a substantial margin above and beyond the schools standard costs for this service?
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