Line training: the debate
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Don't pay for line training or a TR. Not without a firm job offer. When you've got low hours (total) you've not much ingrained skill and what skill you have is quickly eroded through lack of practice. Add to that, the skills needed to operate highly complex jet aircraft both safely and efficiently are also rapidly lost without continued practice and basic line training hours are not going to get you anywhere near the level you need where a quick trip in the sim is all you need. You need at least 500hrs on type to be reasonably proficient/consistent. I've got 8000hrs, 6300hrs on commercial jets and very very current, yet when I take even a couple of weeks leave the first day back feels very much like an out of body experience. Imagine you've only 70hrs on type, and you haven't flown that type for a year, maybe more, then you will most likely be right back at the same point you were before you started. You'll probably spend a fortune on getting revalidated each year and you'll still need line training at any other employer anyway. And by the way, it's not easy to fly different SOPs on the same type for a different operator. The majority of my remaining hours were built flying instructing. 13 years. Part time. Just building experience because I couldn't afford to fly any other way and saving money for the commercial. I loved it (but admit I don't particularly desire to do it again) and it gave me a very solid foundation of flying skills. OK, instructing jobs are like hens teeth also, but the rating is nowhere near £30k+ to obtain and is a damn sight easier and cheaper to maintain than a jet rating.
Hope this makes sense. The glass of red wine was quite strong.
Hope this makes sense. The glass of red wine was quite strong.
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Hollingworth I agree with the first paragraph of your first post, it is the only thing available at the moment and so very much unavoidable.
However I am guessing that you went into flying for the same reasons as I and many do, for the flying! Correct?
Yes paying for ur rating is wrong but like you said the flying hours are good with it, and so I would rarther pay and fly and get paid for flying than not pay for your rating and therefore flying but also getting paid not to fly! How many hours have you done this month?? I no times are hard in the vlj sector!! But I suppose flooding that market with low houred cadets whilst others in the same part of industry who have valuable experience are let go is completely fair?? But that's for another topic!
I am not having a dig but you said it your self it's the only thing out there and atleast now the Ryan gig isn't the worse out there!!!
Happy new year everyone!
However I am guessing that you went into flying for the same reasons as I and many do, for the flying! Correct?
Yes paying for ur rating is wrong but like you said the flying hours are good with it, and so I would rarther pay and fly and get paid for flying than not pay for your rating and therefore flying but also getting paid not to fly! How many hours have you done this month?? I no times are hard in the vlj sector!! But I suppose flooding that market with low houred cadets whilst others in the same part of industry who have valuable experience are let go is completely fair?? But that's for another topic!
I am not having a dig but you said it your self it's the only thing out there and atleast now the Ryan gig isn't the worse out there!!!
Happy new year everyone!
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Paying for type ratings plus line training
After reading through countless treads on this topic and others, its hard to find anything positive coming from people.
A lot of people come onto this site to have a moan and a bitch without giving anything constructive. Its actually quite depressing reading through some of the comments.
Ive been trying to find some constructive advice on the pros and cons of self funding a type rating and paying for line experience.
I finished my training towards the end of the year and have been looking for a job since before I finished.
Ive looked into various options available to me.
1. Keep filling in application forms and hoping for a bite
2. Do some structured hour building ie. with a instructor so I learn more, while waiting for a bite
3. Pay for a type rating and line training and hope it may land you a job.
4. Go get a sea plane rating and try find some work in Canada/Alaska
Now before the haters come out let me explain a few things.
. Daddy is not paying for this. Im would fund this myself through bank loans
. I have no current debt
. Im in my late 20's
Nearly ever post I've read about this says DONT DO IT. Its bad for the industry..........your taking jobs from other more qualified people..........u shouldn't have to pay for a job..................
Has anyone actually gone this route and had success/failure?
What do the recruiters think of these schemes?
What are the pros and cons?
Is this the way of the future?
Please no bashing. There are other threads to continue the bashing. I just want some objective views and advice.
Thanks in advance
A lot of people come onto this site to have a moan and a bitch without giving anything constructive. Its actually quite depressing reading through some of the comments.
Ive been trying to find some constructive advice on the pros and cons of self funding a type rating and paying for line experience.
I finished my training towards the end of the year and have been looking for a job since before I finished.
Ive looked into various options available to me.
1. Keep filling in application forms and hoping for a bite
2. Do some structured hour building ie. with a instructor so I learn more, while waiting for a bite
3. Pay for a type rating and line training and hope it may land you a job.
4. Go get a sea plane rating and try find some work in Canada/Alaska
Now before the haters come out let me explain a few things.
. Daddy is not paying for this. Im would fund this myself through bank loans
. I have no current debt
. Im in my late 20's
Nearly ever post I've read about this says DONT DO IT. Its bad for the industry..........your taking jobs from other more qualified people..........u shouldn't have to pay for a job..................
Has anyone actually gone this route and had success/failure?
What do the recruiters think of these schemes?
What are the pros and cons?
Is this the way of the future?
Please no bashing. There are other threads to continue the bashing. I just want some objective views and advice.
Thanks in advance
Last edited by aslan1982; 3rd Jan 2010 at 11:29.
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Please no bashing. There are other threads to continue the bashing. I just want some objective views and advice.
My 2p's worth on your situation and your ideas:
- You honestly need to keep actively and creatively looking for ANY type of associated flying work / work connected to aviation. Looking since the end of the year is no time at all and clearly (without sounding patronising and not intending to be so) in the current climate its going to take some considerable time.
- Yes, keep on filling in any applications you can make. If you have time, put on a suit and go and introduce yourself to a few smaller operators at your local / regional airport. Also, do anything you can to keep current and in touch with the industry - your idea of doing some structured hour building is a good one. Like that you will be well positioned when things do start back up.
- Do not buy a type rating and hope for anything!!!! Quite simply put, you're throwing money down the drain in a vain attempt to jump the queue. The only time you would surely ever consider doing this is if you had a guaranteed job offer at the end - or if a company wanted to bond you. Don't be fooled by some of these cowboy TR + Line training companies. Its a lose-lose for everyone and the entire industry in the long run. Once the line training is over there's a gazillion guys out there with way more hours on type than you will have. Your end position will be no better than your start position.
- Forget going to Canada or Alaska unless a) you have 500 plus hours of float experience and b) have the right to work or live out there. Unfortunately there's a ton of guys also looking who have all of the above.
Sorry to sound negative, but it really is a case of doing whatever you can to keep in touch with the industry, keeping current and remaining as positive as possible. Save your hard earned cash, don't just buy a TR. When things do turn around, you will be pleased you did.
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I'm not sure that this is in the right forum but I do have something to say in response so I'll reply anyway.
The options you are considering?
1. Keep filling in application forms and hoping for a bite? - yes, can't see how that can be a bad idea
2. Do some structured hour building ie. with a instructor so I learn more, while waiting for a bite? - if you can afford it, staying current is never a bad idea
3. Pay for a type rating and line training and hope it may land you a job. ?... see the responses below....
4. Go get a sea plane rating and try find some work in Canada/Alaska - that's the way many current airline pilots started out (I believe), a good idea for a lot of reasons.
You mention regarding type rating -
. Daddy is not paying for this. Im funding this myself through bank loans
OK, firstly it does appear that you have already made the decision - and I fully understand your desire to be in the right-hand seat or something, but whoever's paying for it actually doesn't change what's happening.
. I have no current debt
That is an excellent thing if you are fully qualified. Well done on making the right choices (lots of assumptions I'm making there!) to get this far with the minimum of debt. Do you really want to ruin all that hard work just because everybody else you know has a lot more debt than you would end up with? Debt is still debt, regardless of whether it's more of less than the next person in line.
. Im in my late 20's
So you feel pressured into getting an airliner job immediately? Think long-term, Aslan. I'm only a year younger than you. We have our whole career ahead of us. If you have the option to do something as exciting as floatplane flying in Canada or Alaska, this would be the perfect time in your life to do it. You get one shot at life. Not just at airline flying (which, by the way, doesn't seem to be presenting much in the way of shots to take right now), but everything that life has to offer. OK, so again with the assumptions, I am ignoring the possibility of family, mortgage and so on.
Your other questions:
Has anyone actually gone this route and had success/failure? - Many people have had both. Ryanair in this country, for example, employs many people who have self-funded, but there are also many people who self-fund and do not get a job all over the world.
What do the recruiters think of these schemes? - I can't answer that as I'm not a recruiter. If I was, though, I would lock on to the fact that you were willing to pay for your training and then, later in your career, offer you the chance to pay for your LPC/OPC, Command Upgrade, Away-from-base Accommodation - all because I know you did it once before at a time when you had no guarantee of employment - which would make my offer a relatively sweet one surely?!
What are the pros and cons? - Pro: You learn something new
Con: As you have said yourself, no guarantee of a job for a very high cost. i.e. high risk to reward - it's basically a gamble. Should pilots gamble with risks? Sorry, I'm sidetracking... but you get my point... I hope. Con: Somebody will probably get you to work for free as part of your type-rating "cost". Once that's done, there is a high chance that instead of paying you to stay on board, the next person exactly like yourself will be ushered into your still-warm seat to take your place... for free. See what I mean about risk to reward? Not much reward when you end up without a job.
And to link into your last question..
CON:
Is this the way of the future? - It will become that way if we keep signing these deals. Forget about the possibility of being one of the "lucky" ones who gets in before it all goes to pot. You will be in the pot when we all boil. Scary? I hope so.
Don't try to kid yourself that just because you have no debt you can afford to pay for an outsourced type rating up front with no job guarantee. The ramifications on your terms and conditions in the future will add up to much more than the cost of the rating itself. That may not be what you want to hear, but there is a reason why everybody keeps saying it.
Sorry I couldn't be more positive.
AD
The options you are considering?
1. Keep filling in application forms and hoping for a bite? - yes, can't see how that can be a bad idea
2. Do some structured hour building ie. with a instructor so I learn more, while waiting for a bite? - if you can afford it, staying current is never a bad idea
3. Pay for a type rating and line training and hope it may land you a job. ?... see the responses below....
4. Go get a sea plane rating and try find some work in Canada/Alaska - that's the way many current airline pilots started out (I believe), a good idea for a lot of reasons.
You mention regarding type rating -
. Daddy is not paying for this. Im funding this myself through bank loans
OK, firstly it does appear that you have already made the decision - and I fully understand your desire to be in the right-hand seat or something, but whoever's paying for it actually doesn't change what's happening.
. I have no current debt
That is an excellent thing if you are fully qualified. Well done on making the right choices (lots of assumptions I'm making there!) to get this far with the minimum of debt. Do you really want to ruin all that hard work just because everybody else you know has a lot more debt than you would end up with? Debt is still debt, regardless of whether it's more of less than the next person in line.
. Im in my late 20's
So you feel pressured into getting an airliner job immediately? Think long-term, Aslan. I'm only a year younger than you. We have our whole career ahead of us. If you have the option to do something as exciting as floatplane flying in Canada or Alaska, this would be the perfect time in your life to do it. You get one shot at life. Not just at airline flying (which, by the way, doesn't seem to be presenting much in the way of shots to take right now), but everything that life has to offer. OK, so again with the assumptions, I am ignoring the possibility of family, mortgage and so on.
Your other questions:
Has anyone actually gone this route and had success/failure? - Many people have had both. Ryanair in this country, for example, employs many people who have self-funded, but there are also many people who self-fund and do not get a job all over the world.
What do the recruiters think of these schemes? - I can't answer that as I'm not a recruiter. If I was, though, I would lock on to the fact that you were willing to pay for your training and then, later in your career, offer you the chance to pay for your LPC/OPC, Command Upgrade, Away-from-base Accommodation - all because I know you did it once before at a time when you had no guarantee of employment - which would make my offer a relatively sweet one surely?!
What are the pros and cons? - Pro: You learn something new
Con: As you have said yourself, no guarantee of a job for a very high cost. i.e. high risk to reward - it's basically a gamble. Should pilots gamble with risks? Sorry, I'm sidetracking... but you get my point... I hope. Con: Somebody will probably get you to work for free as part of your type-rating "cost". Once that's done, there is a high chance that instead of paying you to stay on board, the next person exactly like yourself will be ushered into your still-warm seat to take your place... for free. See what I mean about risk to reward? Not much reward when you end up without a job.
And to link into your last question..
CON:
Is this the way of the future? - It will become that way if we keep signing these deals. Forget about the possibility of being one of the "lucky" ones who gets in before it all goes to pot. You will be in the pot when we all boil. Scary? I hope so.
Don't try to kid yourself that just because you have no debt you can afford to pay for an outsourced type rating up front with no job guarantee. The ramifications on your terms and conditions in the future will add up to much more than the cost of the rating itself. That may not be what you want to hear, but there is a reason why everybody keeps saying it.
Sorry I couldn't be more positive.
AD
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Has anyone actually gone this route and had success/failure?
-Undoubtedly yes to both. Ryanair pilots for the time being are experiencing success. Some of the people that first did these schemes have experienced success. The future is a completely different one and I very much hope that everyone who embarks on one of these PTF schemes experiences cataclysmic failure.
What do the recruiters think of these schemes?
- The 'recruiters' using them to achieve revenue love them. Past that a pilot interviewing you is going to dislike you - intensely in the most part.
What are the pros and cons?
- PROs:
- You can tell girls you are a pilot.
- You can wear the uniform to the supermarket.
- Your parents, at dinner parties, can tell their friends you are a pilot.
- It keeps airfares low and load factors higher.
- For the period you can keep current.
- CONs ( A rather apt choice of word):
- You will have wasted £30K+ which is difficult to earn and incredibly easy to spend. (Unless it's your parents money, which you say it isn't so this will be an EXTREME factor for you - I too could buy some TR with line hours but I know how hard I have to work to get the money, so I shaln't be giving it away so that some 'alwight mate' with bleach blond hair and an earing can go on holiday with his girlfriend Beyonce for less - because that's all you are doing, lowering the cost base for the airline so they can lower their prices and remain competitive).
- You'll be hated by anyone who is a commercial pilot and has the 'balls' / brain to tell you so.
- You are delaying the ineviatble, you wont be kept on and you will go uncurrent.
- You are showing your net worth to future employers, you'll have no room to bargain for anything.
- You'll probably kill yourself - leave it to the people who have the knowledge, skills, IPs and patience to make it.
Is this the way of the future?
- For the short term future yes. It CAN NOT be the way for the long term future, nature doesn't work that way. Short term future is possibly 5 years.
If you are smart enough to have done all your training and be in the financial position to buy a TR with no help and no debt you should have been able to work this out for yourself.
DON'T BUY A TR AND LINE HOURS. YOU WILL REGRET IT IF YOU DO.
-Undoubtedly yes to both. Ryanair pilots for the time being are experiencing success. Some of the people that first did these schemes have experienced success. The future is a completely different one and I very much hope that everyone who embarks on one of these PTF schemes experiences cataclysmic failure.
What do the recruiters think of these schemes?
- The 'recruiters' using them to achieve revenue love them. Past that a pilot interviewing you is going to dislike you - intensely in the most part.
What are the pros and cons?
- PROs:
- You can tell girls you are a pilot.
- You can wear the uniform to the supermarket.
- Your parents, at dinner parties, can tell their friends you are a pilot.
- It keeps airfares low and load factors higher.
- For the period you can keep current.
- CONs ( A rather apt choice of word):
- You will have wasted £30K+ which is difficult to earn and incredibly easy to spend. (Unless it's your parents money, which you say it isn't so this will be an EXTREME factor for you - I too could buy some TR with line hours but I know how hard I have to work to get the money, so I shaln't be giving it away so that some 'alwight mate' with bleach blond hair and an earing can go on holiday with his girlfriend Beyonce for less - because that's all you are doing, lowering the cost base for the airline so they can lower their prices and remain competitive).
- You'll be hated by anyone who is a commercial pilot and has the 'balls' / brain to tell you so.
- You are delaying the ineviatble, you wont be kept on and you will go uncurrent.
- You are showing your net worth to future employers, you'll have no room to bargain for anything.
- You'll probably kill yourself - leave it to the people who have the knowledge, skills, IPs and patience to make it.
Is this the way of the future?
- For the short term future yes. It CAN NOT be the way for the long term future, nature doesn't work that way. Short term future is possibly 5 years.
If you are smart enough to have done all your training and be in the financial position to buy a TR with no help and no debt you should have been able to work this out for yourself.
DON'T BUY A TR AND LINE HOURS. YOU WILL REGRET IT IF YOU DO.
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Getting a float pane rating because you think you will get a job in Alaska or Canada is probably an even bigger waste of money than paying for line training. Not as morally stupid but wont get you a job. Sorry for being blunt but have been there and dont want you to delude yourself.
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HI aslan, I must say, that I am in a similar position as you are. Frozen ATPL with low hours and no job in seight.
The Situation for us is basically this:
There are no jobs for low hour guys like us at the moment, not even FI jobs.... And the situation is still getting worse. As experienced pilots are still laid off and loads of wannabes are still training to be unemployed.....
A float rating with no hours won't get you anywhere, It might be fun and not even that expensive but it will definately not get you a job for the time being
The deal with T/R and Linetraining is: Anything less than 500 hrs linetraining won't get you anywhere at all. Then even if u get 500hrs on an A320 your chances of finding a job afterwards are still very slim. I would guess arround 5-10%. (And don't even think about doing the cheaper 737 rating, there are tons of jobless people with NG ratings....
Then whey out your chances: Is it wise put 50k on 5-10%? I decided for myself:No
I personally know people who did self sponsored 320 and 737 ratings some of them are starting (waiting to start) Linetraining at the moment. Some of them on 100k debts....
The Situation for us is basically this:
There are no jobs for low hour guys like us at the moment, not even FI jobs.... And the situation is still getting worse. As experienced pilots are still laid off and loads of wannabes are still training to be unemployed.....
A float rating with no hours won't get you anywhere, It might be fun and not even that expensive but it will definately not get you a job for the time being
The deal with T/R and Linetraining is: Anything less than 500 hrs linetraining won't get you anywhere at all. Then even if u get 500hrs on an A320 your chances of finding a job afterwards are still very slim. I would guess arround 5-10%. (And don't even think about doing the cheaper 737 rating, there are tons of jobless people with NG ratings....
Then whey out your chances: Is it wise put 50k on 5-10%? I decided for myself:No
I personally know people who did self sponsored 320 and 737 ratings some of them are starting (waiting to start) Linetraining at the moment. Some of them on 100k debts....
Last edited by Ronand; 3rd Jan 2010 at 13:24.
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A float rating with no hours won't get you anywhere
It might very well get you into the pile for the filing cabinet instead of the direct route to the bucket. It shows you enjoy flying for the sake of flying. Same with alpine ratings and other fun things that pilots do and would love to continue doing after they have got a RHS gig.
It won't help you if a HR deptment filter the CV's but if you CV lands on the desk of a Chief Pilot of say a charter outfit flying Jetstrteams or Kingairs or the like. H'mm a 250 hour intergrated or a modular 250 hour or 250 hour modular + float hey look this guy has done some float flying always wanted to do that myself was going to go up to scotland but never got round to it (as hand reaches across to phone to call for an interview)
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Just bide your time. When the upturn comes (or if it does not) just make sure that your finances are not screwed. By doing a TR you are going to put yourself under financial pressure. Big trouble if you can't (and you won't) get a well paid job. If you remain debt free and concentrate on your current career your options will be wide open in an upturn. If you HAVE to be on a big jet salary because of your finances, then your options are likely to be limited.
The float rating sounds like a good idea, though I doubt you'll get a job with it any time soon. But, as you are debt free, it is not that expensive and any flying and additional training will keep you sharp. I fly for an airline and am going to Jack Brown's Seaplane Base, in Florida to do my Single Engine Sea rating this year; just for the fun of it.
The float rating sounds like a good idea, though I doubt you'll get a job with it any time soon. But, as you are debt free, it is not that expensive and any flying and additional training will keep you sharp. I fly for an airline and am going to Jack Brown's Seaplane Base, in Florida to do my Single Engine Sea rating this year; just for the fun of it.
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Thank you guys for all the advice and opinions. It has made a difference. Yesterday I was all for doing it but I've decided not to go for the type rating + line training option.
What I will do is do some structured hour building to keep my skills in check.
I think just renting a plane on my own would be damaging because I'm not really going to teach myself and my bad habits would become really bad ones.
Flying with an instructor who knows your situation and knows what skills you should be developing would be alot more beneficial.
Maybe throw in a sea plane rating for some fun.
I think patience is the key. It will happen eventually. best of luck to all of you
Thanks again
Just out of interest does anyone know why the 737type rating and line training soooo much cheaper than the a320
What I will do is do some structured hour building to keep my skills in check.
I think just renting a plane on my own would be damaging because I'm not really going to teach myself and my bad habits would become really bad ones.
Flying with an instructor who knows your situation and knows what skills you should be developing would be alot more beneficial.
Maybe throw in a sea plane rating for some fun.
I think patience is the key. It will happen eventually. best of luck to all of you
Thanks again
Just out of interest does anyone know why the 737type rating and line training soooo much cheaper than the a320
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I fly for an airline and am going to Jack Brown's Seaplane Base, in Florida to do my Single Engine Sea rating this year; just for the fun of it.
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Originally Posted by aslan1982
4. Go get a sea plane rating and try find some work in Canada/Alaska
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Just out of interest does anyone know why the 737type rating and line training soooo much cheaper than the a320
And yes v6g, I can imagine it annoys you reading that 'pie-in-the-sky' assumption whilst you are living in Canada probably with a Transport Canada CPL/IR and no flying job.
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Low houred cadets!
The Beak, can I ask you a question without you having a go? I have always been honest, and you know the situation I am in from previous encounters on a different thread.
Its just about the Pros and Cons argument you put forward, well mainly about the Cons as the Pros although quite true, are just a handfull of the actuall Pros.
You say that anyone doing a SSTR will be hated by anyone who is a commercial pilot? What about those that are doing the SSTR? Also the others out there that believe its the best of a raw deal? (although obviously on here thats a minority!) I did alot of digging and asking of questions to fellow commercial pilots who currently fly in the industry and ALL said for me to do it and not throw the option away as it was decent to be offered a place as many are not!
We will eventually become uncurrent?? Any evidence?? No offence but any Ryanair pilot out there that you know of that has been layed off?? I dont??
Your net worth to future employers remark is something that has actually worried me the beak. I do worry sometimes especially with the comments being expressed that maybe in the future a fellow employer may ask why I decided on that route. The answer is I will tell them? The truth, I researched, I had the money, I passed the assessment, I gained valuable experience whilst keeping current.
I will probably kill my self?? Well I am affraid I do not agree with that my friend. What is the difference between me and others now walking into my TR, passing it and base check and walking out onto the line to fly Bob and Brenda to Malaga (in march) and those that were lucky enough to walk straight into a job after the same amount of hours as I have as a low houred pilot just four years ago when times were GOOD, going through the same TR, passing it and base training and flying Nigel and Nigela to Rome?? There isnt really! They have the same experience as me as a low houred pilot, they have done the same course, the only difference is they didn't have to pay for their TR as I have had to..... Aren't they the lucky ones!! How does the fact that I payed for my TR make me a pilot that is prone to kill myself??
I have my own ideas about waiting a few MORE years for the times to change (chears Mr Bob Dylan), and they are, what is stopping airlines in the future making everyone pay for their TR's?? Don't get me wrong, I know what I am doing is just adding to the problem, but I wasn't the first to start this and so maybe the finger should be pointed at the guys who initially started paying for their TR's??
You talk about the option as a SSTR as being a short term thing... 5 years would taking a very average 700 hours at RYR, 3500 hours on type possibly half to a year of that, 350-700 in command, thats not really a bad thing to have now is it??
I hope that in the future its not like this, and I also hope that you The Beak get flying again and regain the passion you no doubt once had.
All the best in the new year, and safe flying!
Its just about the Pros and Cons argument you put forward, well mainly about the Cons as the Pros although quite true, are just a handfull of the actuall Pros.
You say that anyone doing a SSTR will be hated by anyone who is a commercial pilot? What about those that are doing the SSTR? Also the others out there that believe its the best of a raw deal? (although obviously on here thats a minority!) I did alot of digging and asking of questions to fellow commercial pilots who currently fly in the industry and ALL said for me to do it and not throw the option away as it was decent to be offered a place as many are not!
We will eventually become uncurrent?? Any evidence?? No offence but any Ryanair pilot out there that you know of that has been layed off?? I dont??
Your net worth to future employers remark is something that has actually worried me the beak. I do worry sometimes especially with the comments being expressed that maybe in the future a fellow employer may ask why I decided on that route. The answer is I will tell them? The truth, I researched, I had the money, I passed the assessment, I gained valuable experience whilst keeping current.
I will probably kill my self?? Well I am affraid I do not agree with that my friend. What is the difference between me and others now walking into my TR, passing it and base check and walking out onto the line to fly Bob and Brenda to Malaga (in march) and those that were lucky enough to walk straight into a job after the same amount of hours as I have as a low houred pilot just four years ago when times were GOOD, going through the same TR, passing it and base training and flying Nigel and Nigela to Rome?? There isnt really! They have the same experience as me as a low houred pilot, they have done the same course, the only difference is they didn't have to pay for their TR as I have had to..... Aren't they the lucky ones!! How does the fact that I payed for my TR make me a pilot that is prone to kill myself??
I have my own ideas about waiting a few MORE years for the times to change (chears Mr Bob Dylan), and they are, what is stopping airlines in the future making everyone pay for their TR's?? Don't get me wrong, I know what I am doing is just adding to the problem, but I wasn't the first to start this and so maybe the finger should be pointed at the guys who initially started paying for their TR's??
You talk about the option as a SSTR as being a short term thing... 5 years would taking a very average 700 hours at RYR, 3500 hours on type possibly half to a year of that, 350-700 in command, thats not really a bad thing to have now is it??
I hope that in the future its not like this, and I also hope that you The Beak get flying again and regain the passion you no doubt once had.
All the best in the new year, and safe flying!
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Chaps you need to remember that after all is said and done its just a job, you will have bad and good days at the office in much the same way you do now.
If we were recruiting (which were not) I would probably get to screen the CV's and I'd be looking for something to jump out at me and to be honest I'd rather slam my dick in the door than hire an inexperienced pilot whos been out of work for 4 months or more with a 320/737 type rating. What if I was recruiting onto a turboprop?
Heres a plan.
Dont train
Heres another.
If you have trained already, put any thoughts of a flying career onto a back burner for 2 years, ask anybody in the industry just how cyclical it is, we have normal times, boom tiimes and crap times - right now its crap in two or three years it'll be normal and in 5 years if you've got a pulse and an IR you'll get hired. I can remember some operators ringing Oxford to find out who had passed their IR that day and arranging interviews for them their and then.
However.....
We find ourselves at the opposite end of the sine wave, get a job outside aviation, formally rent a plane for 40mins a week and go shoot an ILS with a mate, put enough to one side for a trip in a twin every 6 months and dont even try to keep your IR current save your cash. Put even more enough money to one side for an IR renewal and 5 hours in the oldest sim you can find with the crustiest cheapest ex airline pilot you can find.
At the interview with the DFO or CP that will inevitably happen as long as you have an IR and a pulse (just a case of when) chat with pride that you did the right thing and showed excellent judgement and stuck to your "currency plan" as you knew that it would get you to be sat in the chair that you are presently residing in.
You have more chance of getting a job today than yesterday and the night is always darkest just before dawn.
Go get some fornication done in a kibbutz or be a ticket tout outside a bar in Spain for two years, if you have commitments dig holes in the road. Accept that aviation is unavailable to you right now unless you wish to rent an airliner which lets face it is just plain stupid
If we were recruiting (which were not) I would probably get to screen the CV's and I'd be looking for something to jump out at me and to be honest I'd rather slam my dick in the door than hire an inexperienced pilot whos been out of work for 4 months or more with a 320/737 type rating. What if I was recruiting onto a turboprop?
Heres a plan.
Dont train
Heres another.
If you have trained already, put any thoughts of a flying career onto a back burner for 2 years, ask anybody in the industry just how cyclical it is, we have normal times, boom tiimes and crap times - right now its crap in two or three years it'll be normal and in 5 years if you've got a pulse and an IR you'll get hired. I can remember some operators ringing Oxford to find out who had passed their IR that day and arranging interviews for them their and then.
However.....
We find ourselves at the opposite end of the sine wave, get a job outside aviation, formally rent a plane for 40mins a week and go shoot an ILS with a mate, put enough to one side for a trip in a twin every 6 months and dont even try to keep your IR current save your cash. Put even more enough money to one side for an IR renewal and 5 hours in the oldest sim you can find with the crustiest cheapest ex airline pilot you can find.
At the interview with the DFO or CP that will inevitably happen as long as you have an IR and a pulse (just a case of when) chat with pride that you did the right thing and showed excellent judgement and stuck to your "currency plan" as you knew that it would get you to be sat in the chair that you are presently residing in.
You have more chance of getting a job today than yesterday and the night is always darkest just before dawn.
Go get some fornication done in a kibbutz or be a ticket tout outside a bar in Spain for two years, if you have commitments dig holes in the road. Accept that aviation is unavailable to you right now unless you wish to rent an airliner which lets face it is just plain stupid
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Tommyg737...
What a shocking lack of moral fortitude. Sorry mate, but its exactly this kind of mentality that is making the whole industry so horrible and polarised.
G-SPOTs Lost...
Hear hear! Sound advice and indeed the type of long termist, wholistic approach many more people should adopt.
Don't get me wrong, I know what I am doing is just adding to the problem, but I wasn't the first to start this and so maybe the finger should be pointed at the guys who initially started paying for their TR's??
G-SPOTs Lost...
Hear hear! Sound advice and indeed the type of long termist, wholistic approach many more people should adopt.
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Sorry
Finals19
Sorry bout that statement, your very right to flag me up on it. I am not a
C&@k honest. What I am trying to get across is that from our point of view right now from the time I qualified back in april is that SSTR is the only way to go if you want a job. Unfortunatly we know no different and that's awful to admit, but it is true, it's ok to say wait but the way we have entered into the industry and the time we have entered into it we see no point as there may never be the old times back.
The industry is obviously changing, as a Yorkshire man, change is not good!! But as a human we must learn to adapt to change.
Happy landings everyone!
Sorry bout that statement, your very right to flag me up on it. I am not a
C&@k honest. What I am trying to get across is that from our point of view right now from the time I qualified back in april is that SSTR is the only way to go if you want a job. Unfortunatly we know no different and that's awful to admit, but it is true, it's ok to say wait but the way we have entered into the industry and the time we have entered into it we see no point as there may never be the old times back.
The industry is obviously changing, as a Yorkshire man, change is not good!! But as a human we must learn to adapt to change.
Happy landings everyone!
Join Date: Nov 2002
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The industry is in a mess, we all know that a few hundred guys waiting for line training isn't going to make a difference either way, having said that, the cash they inject into the airlines, the salaries they don't take may just keep a few wheels on some wagons, but not many, maybe a few North African outfits, small Greek outfits and swell the coffers of the Hungarians. This forum keeps bashing the SSTR and Pay to Fly guys, what about the companies selling the Line Flying in the full knowledge the delay will be months and months. Apart from BMI in the UK I know of no Airline that delivers these product on time.. I hoped to be proved wrong? On the wider issue, the industry is now looking after itself.. GSM guys possible Qatar contracts, Monarch guys at Olympic, Sky Europe guys with TUI, even Ryanair doing their bit. What this does mean, of course, is the openings for the newbies are very very few and far between. Mind you, the Line training sellers won't tell you this!