Affording training /lower class.
Hovering AND talking
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yet have less options when I leave the course because I'm modular
What is showing here is that you believe the integrated system to be better than modular and you are feeling bitter that you couldn't afford to it. That is where you need to adjust your thinking. And, believe me, chips have a way of appearing in a cockpit even if you think you've hidden them away.
we are meant to embrace equal opportunities
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Whirls
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I don't believe that one is better than the other I simply believe that its a licence and that the test standards are the same regardless of weather you go integrated or modular. The problem is that its a fact that a graduate of Oxford or CTC etc etc will have more chances.
Even now the CTC cadets who have graduated into nothing, have there CV on file with CTC and when the upturn comes they will walk straight into jobs with the airlines, which have partnered with CTC. Its the same with Oxford and British Airways. An individual as a holder of a fATPL from any other establishment cannot apply for these jobs, they have been exclusivley reserved for the individuals who have paid top dollar for flight training which most of us ordinary chaps cannot afford. How is that fair? You don't even get a chance to apply for a job with many of CTC's partner airlines because they have taken up all the slots!
Thats wrong and thats why its not equal, I don't see universities promising employment with XYZ companies on there advertisements, so why are flight schools able to do this? If the likes of EZY, British Airways etc want people trained to a specific standard then they should open an academy or bring back full scaled sponsorship, they should not be operating some half baked tagging scheme via a flight school where only those that are financially capable are able to attend. No one for a second cannot deny that this practice is excluding some very capable individuals
Even now the CTC cadets who have graduated into nothing, have there CV on file with CTC and when the upturn comes they will walk straight into jobs with the airlines, which have partnered with CTC. Its the same with Oxford and British Airways. An individual as a holder of a fATPL from any other establishment cannot apply for these jobs, they have been exclusivley reserved for the individuals who have paid top dollar for flight training which most of us ordinary chaps cannot afford. How is that fair? You don't even get a chance to apply for a job with many of CTC's partner airlines because they have taken up all the slots!
Thats wrong and thats why its not equal, I don't see universities promising employment with XYZ companies on there advertisements, so why are flight schools able to do this? If the likes of EZY, British Airways etc want people trained to a specific standard then they should open an academy or bring back full scaled sponsorship, they should not be operating some half baked tagging scheme via a flight school where only those that are financially capable are able to attend. No one for a second cannot deny that this practice is excluding some very capable individuals
Hovering AND talking
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Life's not fair; no, really it isn't. Was it fair that I was born too early to become a pilot in the RAF?
No they won't. They won't have the chance to be an instructor or ferry pilot or .... There are a lot of small operators who wouldn't want to employ an integrated student and would prefer modular.
There are some people who may say that it's not fair that Flyboy1818 can afford a modular course - what say you? There are some people who can't afford a roof over their head. So, on the scale of things, you are quite privileged? Make the most of it.
Cheers
Whirls
The problem is that its a fact that a graduate of Oxford or CTC etc etc will have more chances.
There are some people who may say that it's not fair that Flyboy1818 can afford a modular course - what say you? There are some people who can't afford a roof over their head. So, on the scale of things, you are quite privileged? Make the most of it.
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Whirls
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flyboy
A couple of points. First off, is it really too much trouble to use correct punctuation and roughly correct spelling? It would make your posts easier to read, which is polite to those you are addressing, and poor language is far more likely to restrict your choices than the training course you were on. People have found jobs through PPRuNe, so this might be the first impression you make.
Secondly a large proportion of pilots don't go into the business for the money. Quite the reverse, the money is good because the job is dull. Some of the most challenging jobs in aviation command rather modest salaries because they are varied and interesting, so the adventurous people who learn to fly actually want those jobs. Money is not a rational motive for going into aviation. The rewards are not high enough for the uncertainty. There are far better careers for anyone who wants to earn a lot.
How much involvement you have had in the industry that you seem to know all about recruitment policy in the diverse sectors? You also seem to know the recruitment policies that would be better for those airlines. On what research do you base that? Assuming of course that you don't think airline recruitment should be set up for the benefit of the pilot; that would be ridiculous.
A couple of points. First off, is it really too much trouble to use correct punctuation and roughly correct spelling? It would make your posts easier to read, which is polite to those you are addressing, and poor language is far more likely to restrict your choices than the training course you were on. People have found jobs through PPRuNe, so this might be the first impression you make.
Secondly a large proportion of pilots don't go into the business for the money. Quite the reverse, the money is good because the job is dull. Some of the most challenging jobs in aviation command rather modest salaries because they are varied and interesting, so the adventurous people who learn to fly actually want those jobs. Money is not a rational motive for going into aviation. The rewards are not high enough for the uncertainty. There are far better careers for anyone who wants to earn a lot.
How much involvement you have had in the industry that you seem to know all about recruitment policy in the diverse sectors? You also seem to know the recruitment policies that would be better for those airlines. On what research do you base that? Assuming of course that you don't think airline recruitment should be set up for the benefit of the pilot; that would be ridiculous.
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I think your overlooking the main point here, which is that its alot of money for a young person from a normal background with no financial support from there parents. The cheque book really does rule here!
7.5 years working in Aviation, 5 years in the Airline sector, 2.5 in Business Aviation. Ferry and Business Jet jobs are practically impossible for newly licenced pilots due to the hours requirements! My job involves dealing with a number of senior pilots on a daily basis.
If you have a problem with me affording a modular course then please come and join me on a nightshift, I might even buy you a cookie!
7.5 years working in Aviation, 5 years in the Airline sector, 2.5 in Business Aviation. Ferry and Business Jet jobs are practically impossible for newly licenced pilots due to the hours requirements! My job involves dealing with a number of senior pilots on a daily basis.
If you have a problem with me affording a modular course then please come and join me on a nightshift, I might even buy you a cookie!
Hovering AND talking
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Originally Posted by Flyboy1818
If you have a problem with me affording a modular course
I am not overlooking the main point.
which is that its alot of money for a young person from a normal background with no financial support from there parents
However, determination and effort cost nothing and no cheque book can ever buy the right attitude. And attitude is no respecter of money or class.
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Whirls
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Sorry I think you really have got the wrong end of the stick here, I'm on a modular course! What I'm trying to point out here is that it is very difficult if you are not from a well off background. You cannot deny that my choices after training are limited by financial wealth. I would love to be able to afford to have all the options open to me, but I won't be able to apply for jobs where you have to pay for a type which is most. The person asking the question may work hard for years like me to get a licence and then find that they are back to square one because they do not have the capital to get into certain operators. I know that someone will come on here now and say that they had there type rating paid for, but I bet that was a few years ago!
Instructing would be nice but again it’s more money, it’s all money, money, money and if you’re paying for it off your own back it’s really hard!
I believe I do have the right attitude as I would not have got so far in this industry without a good attitude, what I do not like is the fact that someone who walked into an integrated school 18 months ago because they can afford it is ahead of someone who has spent nearly a decade in the industry because of corrupt recruitment policy. This would not happen in any other industry and needs to be addressed!
Instructing would be nice but again it’s more money, it’s all money, money, money and if you’re paying for it off your own back it’s really hard!
I believe I do have the right attitude as I would not have got so far in this industry without a good attitude, what I do not like is the fact that someone who walked into an integrated school 18 months ago because they can afford it is ahead of someone who has spent nearly a decade in the industry because of corrupt recruitment policy. This would not happen in any other industry and needs to be addressed!
Hovering AND talking
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No, I haven't got the wrong end of the stick at all - I knew you were on a modular course.
However, I CAN deny your choices are limited; I don't think they are. If your only desire is to fly for British Airways, then that option may well be harder. However, as a modular student you have MORE options available. Really, you do if you have the right attitude.
That is just pure envy and bitterness; not desirable character traits so maybe try readjusting your ire into something more positive.
Yes, it does - try researching into how barristers are trained. They have to work for NO income whilst training.
Why does it need to be addressed? Basic supply and demand theory dictates the job market and remuneration therein. We live in a capitalist society; not a communist one.
If you believe that it is only your talent as an aviator that should matter, then you should have joined the Armed Forces, your talent would have shone through and we would have all paid for your training out of our taxes.
I'm not going to reiterate myself any more - life's not fair and it's up to you to make of it what you want; negative attitudes will not help.
Cheers
Whirls
However, I CAN deny your choices are limited; I don't think they are. If your only desire is to fly for British Airways, then that option may well be harder. However, as a modular student you have MORE options available. Really, you do if you have the right attitude.
what I do not like is the fact that someone who walked into an integrated school 18 months ago because they can afford it
This would not happen in any other industry and needs to be addressed!
Why does it need to be addressed? Basic supply and demand theory dictates the job market and remuneration therein. We live in a capitalist society; not a communist one.
If you believe that it is only your talent as an aviator that should matter, then you should have joined the Armed Forces, your talent would have shone through and we would have all paid for your training out of our taxes.
I'm not going to reiterate myself any more - life's not fair and it's up to you to make of it what you want; negative attitudes will not help.
Cheers
Whirls
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I was actually on a University Air Sqaudron for two years and I had a great time, but I always wanted to be a Civilian Pilot and I decided that I should follow my first preference. I think you have made a poor comparision here because the Military is completley different to the Civilan flying world and for many reasons a Military career does not suit everyone. Being a Military Pilot is about alot more than just the flying, it would be insufficient to say that everyone who wants to be a Pilot and cannot afford to train should join the Military.
Its not a negative comment, I am being a realist and stating fact. Most students who graduate an integrated course have no other experience of the Aviation world, yet they get first preference for many jobs. If we are to compare this to your example about the legal profession, imagine working for a legal company for 7.5 years and being told that you cannot work for them as a barrister after qualification because you did not go to there partner law school or were not tagged by them! This does not happen in the legal world. You can go out and do your training at your choice of law school and apply for any of the jobs available. In Aviation however we are limited in choice because of the way in which many of the larger schools have partnered with the airlines.
I have a few friends in the legal profession and I asked them today about the cost of training. For a graduate in another discipline like myself I would have to undertake a graduate diploma in law costing between £2000 and £8000 followed by a Bar Vocational Course costing between £8000-£15000. I would then be qualified to apply for a job. My friend indicates that a newly qualified Barrister at his firm earns around £42K pa, no further training costs are involved. The difference with Aviation is that even when you take the modular route the total costs will be at least twice this amount from zero to fATPL. When we finish training it now seems to be the norm to pay for more training, this could be an instructors ticket at £7K or a type rating at £25K. I know that you have mentioned other jobs such as being a Ferry Pilot, however this type of employment is unlikely to be a first job and is often one for someone who has lets say 1000 hours single enigne time from instructing.
All these factors mixed in do make a career in Aviation extremley prohibitive to an individual trying to pay there own way such as myself or the individual asking the question. Lets not forget that the Goverment do hand out loans for those law courses which means that anyone from any background can training to be a legal professional. You do not require an 80K loan secured on your parents house or parents who will pay to train to go to law school. In addition to this you don't have to go to the highest priced law school to apply for a job with the best law firms. All this is different from the world of Aviation. An integrated student could indeed if they wanted to be end up being a ferry pilot if they wanted to be there are no companies which ferry aircraft specifying that you must come from XYZ modular school to work for them, anyone can apply. All I want is a more level playing field so that students from any flying background can apply for jobs. Flybe is a really good example of the model that all airlines should follow, they pay for you type rating and you can apply if you are integrated or modular. They do have a few schemes but this does not make employment with flybe exclusive.
I really hope you can understand my view point here and that it really is a case of how big your cheque book is, the smaller the cheque book the narrower the opportunities.
That is just pure envy and bitterness; not desirable character traits so maybe try readjusting your ire into something more positive.
I have a few friends in the legal profession and I asked them today about the cost of training. For a graduate in another discipline like myself I would have to undertake a graduate diploma in law costing between £2000 and £8000 followed by a Bar Vocational Course costing between £8000-£15000. I would then be qualified to apply for a job. My friend indicates that a newly qualified Barrister at his firm earns around £42K pa, no further training costs are involved. The difference with Aviation is that even when you take the modular route the total costs will be at least twice this amount from zero to fATPL. When we finish training it now seems to be the norm to pay for more training, this could be an instructors ticket at £7K or a type rating at £25K. I know that you have mentioned other jobs such as being a Ferry Pilot, however this type of employment is unlikely to be a first job and is often one for someone who has lets say 1000 hours single enigne time from instructing.
All these factors mixed in do make a career in Aviation extremley prohibitive to an individual trying to pay there own way such as myself or the individual asking the question. Lets not forget that the Goverment do hand out loans for those law courses which means that anyone from any background can training to be a legal professional. You do not require an 80K loan secured on your parents house or parents who will pay to train to go to law school. In addition to this you don't have to go to the highest priced law school to apply for a job with the best law firms. All this is different from the world of Aviation. An integrated student could indeed if they wanted to be end up being a ferry pilot if they wanted to be there are no companies which ferry aircraft specifying that you must come from XYZ modular school to work for them, anyone can apply. All I want is a more level playing field so that students from any flying background can apply for jobs. Flybe is a really good example of the model that all airlines should follow, they pay for you type rating and you can apply if you are integrated or modular. They do have a few schemes but this does not make employment with flybe exclusive.
I really hope you can understand my view point here and that it really is a case of how big your cheque book is, the smaller the cheque book the narrower the opportunities.
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Why ask for advice from experienced pilots who have been in your situation if you are too busy being part of the 'me now' generation to heed said advice anyway. 
Debt is a terrible curse. With your background you should understand this. Do your A levels - maths is very important in aviation. Get a job, save up, earn your way, and stop being a jerk. But hey, if your shallow enough to think a good car is important in life, then I guess there is little hope for you. You are aware of the current job situation I take it?
Debt is a terrible curse. With your background you should understand this. Do your A levels - maths is very important in aviation. Get a job, save up, earn your way, and stop being a jerk. But hey, if your shallow enough to think a good car is important in life, then I guess there is little hope for you. You are aware of the current job situation I take it?
What i am saying is, i want to know the quickest route, so i can get an idea of what people are doing and maybe deciding if i should do it. No doubt everybody wants it now and hell i do too. In all respect, i was not being a jerk, i may have came across as one but you clearly misinterpreted my meaning. I just find it somewhat of an annoyance when i am breaking my back trying to get into this industry when some little cambridge graduate who has never even been inside the doors of a factory suddenly gets his integrated 50K course costs paid in full and 2 years later is flying for British Airways.
Hovering AND talking
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The human rights act also plays its part for me because legally i cannot be held to liberty so if all goes wrong, declare bankruptcy and start fresh afterwards.
Any idea what bankruptcy ACTUALLY means afterwards? Or are you believing the glossy ads shown on daytime television?
I've said it before; I'll say it again - Life may not be fair but it's what you make of it. Grumbling about how other people have it easy does not help you. Nobody actually has it easy - try walking a mile in someone else's shoes before you start whinging about your lot. Life's tough and we can't always have what we want.
Cheers
Whirls
It surely isn't a co-incidence that those complaining most about how unfair life is to them, are those least capable of constructing clear high quality written English.
G
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Hear, hear, Genghis the Engineer!
And as for Whirlygig - your patience is laudable - Bishop Bonner would brook no such nonsense!
Don't worry, Flyboy1818; Gordon Brown has obviously read your missives, agrees that down this route humanity will prosper and is basing his electoral triumph on this basis.
There is hope! you will soon be out of your teens and will be released from the hormonal nightmare that is obviously gripping your sphincter... his turmoil will be slow to end - wet faggots for him!
Don't worry, Flyboy1818; Gordon Brown has obviously read your missives, agrees that down this route humanity will prosper and is basing his electoral triumph on this basis.
There is hope! you will soon be out of your teens and will be released from the hormonal nightmare that is obviously gripping your sphincter... his turmoil will be slow to end - wet faggots for him!
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Rights vs. Responsibilities
'The human rights act also plays its part for me because legally i cannot be held to liberty so if all goes wrong, declare bankruptcy and start fresh afterwards.'
Crescentpirate - along with my last, apparently Aung San Suu Kyi is also an avid reader of this forum. She applauds your grip of the ramifications of an ill considered vote winning stunt from an ex prime minister, some say war criminal (heaven forfend that anyone on PPRuNe should even consider subscribing to that heresy!), of the UK.
The pH of my contempt for you was matching that of my bile - but my better half went to church once and counsels pity as the more appropriate route.
Your attitude to human rights is so dangerous. I urge you to reconsider your responsibilities.
Crescentpirate - along with my last, apparently Aung San Suu Kyi is also an avid reader of this forum. She applauds your grip of the ramifications of an ill considered vote winning stunt from an ex prime minister, some say war criminal (heaven forfend that anyone on PPRuNe should even consider subscribing to that heresy!), of the UK.
The pH of my contempt for you was matching that of my bile - but my better half went to church once and counsels pity as the more appropriate route.
Your attitude to human rights is so dangerous. I urge you to reconsider your responsibilities.
Hovering AND talking
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Wheelbrace - you owe me a keyboard (and some wetwipes for the monitor!) 
and I might owe you a beer 
Cheers
Whirls
and I might owe you a beer Cheers
Whirls
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I'm from a single parent family and my mother is on benefits. its virtully impossible for me to acquire the 50,000+ to do my integrated frozen ATPL.
I really really want to get my first officer position as quick as possible while i am still young and good looking
I really don't want to be that 'old guy' driving around in his new spangley Lotus Elise trying to relive the youthful bachalor life he never had.
Modular sounds great it does, cheap, at my own pace..but i might try integrated.
I'm not persuing my career for the money or indeed the hotel accomodation with the lonely air hostesses, but i really would love to become a pilot preferably before i am married.
Any pilots got any opinions on undertaking integrated?
Am I reading the same posts as others here?
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Ale uplift
Whirlygig - I would love to take you up on the offer of a beer, but Holt to Derehamshire is a good day's hack. Maybe when the infernal combustion engine is invented and inserted into my horseygig I shall venture that way.
Wheelbrace.
PS - what is a keyboard and monitor? Do you hover like a Bishy Barny Bee in your flying machine? I have heard of such things south of Thetford...
Wheelbrace.
PS - what is a keyboard and monitor? Do you hover like a Bishy Barny Bee in your flying machine? I have heard of such things south of Thetford...
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I just find it somewhat of an annoyance when i am breaking my back trying to get into this industry when some little cambridge graduate who has never even been inside the doors of a factory suddenly gets his integrated 50K course costs paid in full and 2 years later is flying for British Airways.
Hovering AND talking
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Wheelbrace, would sure beat some of the squit here
Indeed I do but my staple diet is no longer greenfly.
Cheers
Whirls
Do you hover like a Bishy Barny Bee in your flying machine?
Cheers
Whirls
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Same here flyboy1818
I'd fly for free if i could, work part-time at a job to allow me food and things necessasary to survive.
Sure the pilots life is glamerous and things and being human it is only natural for me to want that life. It would be great driving a nice car while still being young and so on but if something terrible happened and suddenly alternative ways of transport were found and as a result pilots were being paid minimum wage, i'd still do it. It just means i'd have to date an older and wealthy woman...hahaha i'm joking. No but seriously, i'd fly for free.
Yeah i hope you guys didn't think i wanted this for the money. I wanted to fly before i even knew what money was. When i was a kid i used to get toy cars for christmas and unlike most kids, i'd pretended they could fly.
I'd fly for free if i could, work part-time at a job to allow me food and things necessasary to survive.
Sure the pilots life is glamerous and things and being human it is only natural for me to want that life. It would be great driving a nice car while still being young and so on but if something terrible happened and suddenly alternative ways of transport were found and as a result pilots were being paid minimum wage, i'd still do it. It just means i'd have to date an older and wealthy woman...hahaha i'm joking. No but seriously, i'd fly for free.
Yeah i hope you guys didn't think i wanted this for the money. I wanted to fly before i even knew what money was. When i was a kid i used to get toy cars for christmas and unlike most kids, i'd pretended they could fly.