Poker player aiming for the skies!
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Poker player aiming for the skies!
Hi everyone.
I'll start with a brief introduction of myself as it might help potential posters give advice as to what my best options are.
I am a 22 year old norwegian, currently living in Daytona Beach, FL, attending one of Florida's many flightschools. I just finished my FAA PPL yesterday, after 2 months and 58 hours (Would have been 1,5 month and a couple of hours less, but I managed to catch a cold and had to do refresher flights etc etc). The course I'm currently on includes PPL, PPL-IR, Multi-private, CPL, CFI and CFII. I've been "working" as a professional pokerplayer online for the past two years, and it is my way of funding the education. I knew little to nothing about flying prior to coming here, but now that I have gotten the taste, safe to say I'm hooked and loving it. I should point out that my goal with aviation is to sometime in the future become a professional pilot flying whatever necessary to build hours and keep current, be it airliners or air taxi in southern africa.
However, having spoken to other people who are nearing their CPL's, CFI's and so on and so forth, I've concluded that I might not be at the right school. Additionally, if I were to move to a UK-based FTO, I would benefit from the fact that they don't tax poker players at all. This means I might actually make some money whilst getting my licenses. Thus maybe have sufficient funds saved up when the day comes that I receive my
CPL and everything is "set" (in terms of the paperwork and licenses, I'm well aware that I will still probably be in a ****ty market with few to none available jobs), I might actually have some money saved up for a TR or just a general safety net to fall back on.
So, having that in mind, I've concluded that I'm probably best off continuing my training in the UK. Now comes the question on what school to go with, how I can convert my american PPL to meet european standards, and whether to go for integrated or modular training. Initially, having browsed through these forums and having my father go through his endless pile of aviation magazines plus speak to some of his friends who are airline pilots or in other ways involved with aviation, I've laid my eyes on Cabair and OAA. I would love some insight regarding UK based FTO's, these two in particular, and if someone could clarify the converting process when I only have the american PPL that too would be greatly appreciated.
I basically have two options the way I see it;
A) Move to UK, continue my pilot training there, play poker part-time while doing so, and come out of it with all the licenses and ratings required to start building hours and/or get a TR, and likely have some money to my name when the day is over.
B) Continue with my training here in Florida, become CFII, and go home with anywhere ranging from 4-800 hours and basically no money to my name, nor any debts.
I'll start with a brief introduction of myself as it might help potential posters give advice as to what my best options are.
I am a 22 year old norwegian, currently living in Daytona Beach, FL, attending one of Florida's many flightschools. I just finished my FAA PPL yesterday, after 2 months and 58 hours (Would have been 1,5 month and a couple of hours less, but I managed to catch a cold and had to do refresher flights etc etc). The course I'm currently on includes PPL, PPL-IR, Multi-private, CPL, CFI and CFII. I've been "working" as a professional pokerplayer online for the past two years, and it is my way of funding the education. I knew little to nothing about flying prior to coming here, but now that I have gotten the taste, safe to say I'm hooked and loving it. I should point out that my goal with aviation is to sometime in the future become a professional pilot flying whatever necessary to build hours and keep current, be it airliners or air taxi in southern africa.
However, having spoken to other people who are nearing their CPL's, CFI's and so on and so forth, I've concluded that I might not be at the right school. Additionally, if I were to move to a UK-based FTO, I would benefit from the fact that they don't tax poker players at all. This means I might actually make some money whilst getting my licenses. Thus maybe have sufficient funds saved up when the day comes that I receive my
CPL and everything is "set" (in terms of the paperwork and licenses, I'm well aware that I will still probably be in a ****ty market with few to none available jobs), I might actually have some money saved up for a TR or just a general safety net to fall back on.
So, having that in mind, I've concluded that I'm probably best off continuing my training in the UK. Now comes the question on what school to go with, how I can convert my american PPL to meet european standards, and whether to go for integrated or modular training. Initially, having browsed through these forums and having my father go through his endless pile of aviation magazines plus speak to some of his friends who are airline pilots or in other ways involved with aviation, I've laid my eyes on Cabair and OAA. I would love some insight regarding UK based FTO's, these two in particular, and if someone could clarify the converting process when I only have the american PPL that too would be greatly appreciated.
I basically have two options the way I see it;
A) Move to UK, continue my pilot training there, play poker part-time while doing so, and come out of it with all the licenses and ratings required to start building hours and/or get a TR, and likely have some money to my name when the day is over.
B) Continue with my training here in Florida, become CFII, and go home with anywhere ranging from 4-800 hours and basically no money to my name, nor any debts.
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If you have access to the cash (which by the sounds of things, you may do) stick to modular and do it part time; theres no rush and it will save you £40,000 (plus interest and lost of income).
Don't fall for the shiney magazines it's all a lot of crap.
Don't fall for the shiney magazines it's all a lot of crap.
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If you have access to the cash (which by the sounds of things, you may do) stick to modular and do it part time; theres no rush and it will save you £40,000 (plus interest and lost of income).
Don't fall for the shiney magazines it's all a lot of crap.
Don't fall for the shiney magazines it's all a lot of crap.
I agree on the loss of income part, by sticking to modular and doing it part-time, but I'm uncertain as to how I'd go about doing this. I think that if I move to England to continue my training I want to be able to go somewhere with a structured setup, so that I won't have to worry too much about self-studying and making up a studyplan of my own (I obviously reckon the fact that I'll have to study alot away from school, regardless of what I do, but I hope you get the picture). Anyway, first of all what I need to do is convert my american PPL. I'm hoping to find a school of high quality, not too far away from London (pretty much ruling out the northern UK ones), that will allow me to convert, aswell as getting those oh-so sought after additional licenses once I'm done converting.
You are right with your assumption that I have access to the cash, that being said, I don't have much more than enough to cover school expenses plus a bit of unforeseen expenses.
As for the magazines, yeah, that's the impression I've got now aswell having read through a bunch of threads on here. Beyond awesome forum, by the way.
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Can't you go and work for Statoil, do two weeks on, four weeks off on the rigs and do all your training during your time off? During your spell offshore, use the internet to remain poker current 
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Can't you go and work for Statoil, do two weeks on, four weeks off on the rigs and do all your training during your time off? During your spell offshore, use the internet to remain poker current
Was hoping for a bit more on-topic replies
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Integrated schools are going to cost you between £70-80k, plus interest on any bank loan.
If you go to a modular school, you will probably do it for around £40-55k and be able to train when you want; so if you find nearer the end of your training that the economy is still poor (i.e. no jobs) then you can delay it and allow the economy and recruitment to pick up.
You need to remember, there are HUNDREDS if not thousands of pilots waiting to join the airlines because of the lack of jobs. If you finish your training quickly you'll just end up at the back of the list.
Take your time, enjoy your flying and prevent yourself from taking on any debt and you'll enjoy actually keeping your salary every month rather than paying it all to some bank.
If you go to a modular school, you will probably do it for around £40-55k and be able to train when you want; so if you find nearer the end of your training that the economy is still poor (i.e. no jobs) then you can delay it and allow the economy and recruitment to pick up.
You need to remember, there are HUNDREDS if not thousands of pilots waiting to join the airlines because of the lack of jobs. If you finish your training quickly you'll just end up at the back of the list.
Take your time, enjoy your flying and prevent yourself from taking on any debt and you'll enjoy actually keeping your salary every month rather than paying it all to some bank.
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I agree on ruling out so called integrated courses, after having read numerous posts on here. I actually just got response from OAT that "fortunately" I didn't need to convert my american FAA PPL license, I could just pay the full price, and retake the whole thing with them for the normal full price!
I won't be getting a bank loan, so that's not going to be a factor.
I will definitely be going for a modular type of training, for the reasons you've listed, and the fact that I'll be able to "work" while doing it.
From the looks of things I guess my best bet is to try and shop for schools in UK offering modular training that will also assist me in converting my FAA PPL to a JAA one, and get out of the school I'm currently at ASAP. Wish I had known more before I disembarked overseas!
Oh, and by the way, *shockingly* enough the norwegian company that sent me here forced me to buy the ATPL conversion books prior to leaving, as it was a part of their package. I have 23kg of ATPL books (I think they're the Jep books) in a box back home, for the nice pricetag of $3500. Any chance I can use these at a later stage when I'm actually getting my ATPL?
For what it's worth, I spent $18.000 on the PPL here, and I was the first one to get it out of the 12 guys I started here with. When we first got here we were told it would be somewhere along the lines of $8000 (Yes, I do know that I have 12 or something hours more than the minimum, but good luck trying to sell 12 additional hours for $10.000).
I won't be getting a bank loan, so that's not going to be a factor.
I will definitely be going for a modular type of training, for the reasons you've listed, and the fact that I'll be able to "work" while doing it.
From the looks of things I guess my best bet is to try and shop for schools in UK offering modular training that will also assist me in converting my FAA PPL to a JAA one, and get out of the school I'm currently at ASAP. Wish I had known more before I disembarked overseas!
Oh, and by the way, *shockingly* enough the norwegian company that sent me here forced me to buy the ATPL conversion books prior to leaving, as it was a part of their package. I have 23kg of ATPL books (I think they're the Jep books) in a box back home, for the nice pricetag of $3500. Any chance I can use these at a later stage when I'm actually getting my ATPL?
For what it's worth, I spent $18.000 on the PPL here, and I was the first one to get it out of the 12 guys I started here with. When we first got here we were told it would be somewhere along the lines of $8000 (Yes, I do know that I have 12 or something hours more than the minimum, but good luck trying to sell 12 additional hours for $10.000).
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It seems everyone who has replied so far has missed the irony of a poker player becoming a pilot wannabe. Gambling with large sums of money qualifies you very well for flight training. I just hope you do a bit more research this time before switching schools. A set of brand new ATPL manuals shouldn't cost you more than about £700, so the $3500 you paid for the Jeps is about 3X over the odds.
I would say bin the FAA training and switch straight to JAA modular. You can stay right there in Florida and do the hour building on your FAA PPL to get to 150 hours. You need not convert it to a JAA PPL, as any ICAO PPL is acceptable to commence JAA ATPL theory. The Jeppeson manuals can be used as a costly doorstop because any school you enroll with will probably have different books or if they use the Jeps, may not give you much price reduction for having your own set even if they are the correct revision. Flog them on eBay and cut your losses since Bristol GS and Oxford DL don't use them (OAA has their own books, not sure about BGS).
Finishing an FAA CPL/IR makes no sense at all when you can do JAA CPL in the US and do a JAA IR and MCC back in Europe. Getting an FAA CPL/ME/IR then a JAA conversion just sets you back an extra £10-15K and takes an extra 9 months.
I would say bin the FAA training and switch straight to JAA modular. You can stay right there in Florida and do the hour building on your FAA PPL to get to 150 hours. You need not convert it to a JAA PPL, as any ICAO PPL is acceptable to commence JAA ATPL theory. The Jeppeson manuals can be used as a costly doorstop because any school you enroll with will probably have different books or if they use the Jeps, may not give you much price reduction for having your own set even if they are the correct revision. Flog them on eBay and cut your losses since Bristol GS and Oxford DL don't use them (OAA has their own books, not sure about BGS).
Finishing an FAA CPL/IR makes no sense at all when you can do JAA CPL in the US and do a JAA IR and MCC back in Europe. Getting an FAA CPL/ME/IR then a JAA conversion just sets you back an extra £10-15K and takes an extra 9 months.
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I would say bin the FAA training and switch straight to JAA modular. You can stay right there in Florida and do the hour building on your FAA PPL to get to 150 hours. You need not convert it to a JAA PPL, as any ICAO PPL is acceptable to commence JAA ATPL theory. The Jeppeson manuals can be used as a costly doorstop because any school you enroll with will probably have different books or if they use the Jeps, may not give you much price reduction for having your own set even if they are the correct revision. Flog them on eBay and cut your losses since Bristol GS and Oxford DL don't use them (OAA has their own books, not sure about BGS).
Finishing an FAA CPL/IR makes no sense at all when you can do JAA CPL in the US and do a JAA IR and MCC back in Europe. Getting an FAA CPL/ME/IR then a JAA conversion just sets you back an extra £10-15K and takes an extra 9 months.
Finishing an FAA CPL/IR makes no sense at all when you can do JAA CPL in the US and do a JAA IR and MCC back in Europe. Getting an FAA CPL/ME/IR then a JAA conversion just sets you back an extra £10-15K and takes an extra 9 months.
I will talk to the school manager first thing tomorrow and ask if I can spend the $4500 I have left in my school account to build hours on my own. Don't think they'll like it much at all, but worst case scenario I could always just have it done at another school here. Hopefully I can accumulate the 90 more hours I need before christmas, so I won't have to come back here after spending christmas and NYE in norway. Shouldn't be much of a problem getting it done in 2 months (my ticket back home is 18. december) if they are willing to co-operate, after all there is definitely no shortage of C172 nav II's here.
I'll probably go on some long ass X-countries with my roommate for the hourbuilding if it turns out I'm not banned to ever set foot at school premises tomorrow!
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I did my Canadian PPL this spring, and im gonna convert to JAA PPL now. I have been in contact with Luftfartstilsynet, so I can send you the details they sent me. Its all in the JAR FCL. But you need the written exams, 100 hours, medical and then do the skilltest. You can fly here for 1 year on your FAA PPL.
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I did my Canadian PPL this spring, and im gonna convert to JAA PPL now. I have been in contact with Luftfartstilsynet, so I can send you the details they sent me. Its all in the JAR FCL. But you need the written exams, 100 hours, medical and then do the skilltest. You can fly here for 1 year on your FAA PPL.
I'm very curious as to whether the 100 hours are required to be PIC or if dual-time received also counts towards it...
I spoke to the school manager today, and he seemed quite a bit reluctant to give me block hours for the remaining money. If I quit training at the school I lose my J1 visa, so I guess my previous statement about doing the hour building at another school here in FL won't work either. I'll find out more tomorrow as the flight dept. officer is out of town for the day. He's the one with final say as to whether I can buy hours for the remaining money in my school account.
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Pastis,
JAA Modular route requires these bits:
1. ICAO PPL - So no need to convert FAA to JAA
2. JAA Class 1 Medical
3. 150 hours total time, 70 hours PIC (but get 100 for reasons I'll explain later) and pass 14 JAA ATPL Theory Exams. Hours and Exams can be done in any order.
4. JAA CPL can be done outside Europe - Test flight can be in a single or a twin, different schools offer it different ways.
5. ME if you didn't get it with CPL and can also be done outside Europe.
6. IR - 55 hour course required and must be done in Europe.
7. MCC course - Minimum 15 hours in a multi crew turboprop sim.
It is best to do all of the above at FTOs that are all approved by the same aviation authority. There are quite a few in Florida approved by the UK CAA. If you do bits with oversight from different countries' aviation authorities, you need approval to hodge podge them together and you'll often find the authorities don't like to grant approval or they make you do a lot of it over, especially the French.
JAA CPL issue requires 100 hours PIC, so get it during the hour building because you won't get much PIC during CPL/ME/IR training.
JAA Modular route requires these bits:
1. ICAO PPL - So no need to convert FAA to JAA
2. JAA Class 1 Medical
3. 150 hours total time, 70 hours PIC (but get 100 for reasons I'll explain later) and pass 14 JAA ATPL Theory Exams. Hours and Exams can be done in any order.
4. JAA CPL can be done outside Europe - Test flight can be in a single or a twin, different schools offer it different ways.
5. ME if you didn't get it with CPL and can also be done outside Europe.
6. IR - 55 hour course required and must be done in Europe.
7. MCC course - Minimum 15 hours in a multi crew turboprop sim.
It is best to do all of the above at FTOs that are all approved by the same aviation authority. There are quite a few in Florida approved by the UK CAA. If you do bits with oversight from different countries' aviation authorities, you need approval to hodge podge them together and you'll often find the authorities don't like to grant approval or they make you do a lot of it over, especially the French.
JAA CPL issue requires 100 hours PIC, so get it during the hour building because you won't get much PIC during CPL/ME/IR training.
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Allright, 12.5 of my 58 hours are PIC.
What I'm looking to do then is to acquire 87.5 more hours PIC and 92 more hours total.
First thing I did when I started seriously considering flight training was to obtain a JAA class 1, so that's out of the way.
This part seems really important. I'm not sure if the school I'm at now is even CAA approved, doesn't say anything about it on the website. I won't be able to continue flight training here in FL unless the school agrees to let me fly block hours, I think (I'll have more info regarding this tomorrow, as mentioned in my previous post). I heard something about transferring the J1 visa to a different school, a guy representing this FL based FTO offering JAA training PM'ed me here today, but I doubt I'll be eligible for that seeing as I'm not going to do a course of any kind, just build some 90 hours.
If even possible I wouldn't care if I had to spew out $3-4000 more to get the hours done in the UK as the 0% poker tax would make up for that money-wise easily.
I must thank you for your help so far, it's really much appreciated!
What I'm looking to do then is to acquire 87.5 more hours PIC and 92 more hours total.
First thing I did when I started seriously considering flight training was to obtain a JAA class 1, so that's out of the way.
It is best to do all of the above at FTOs that are all approved by the same aviation authority. There are quite a few in Florida approved by the UK CAA. If you do bits with oversight from different countries' aviation authorities, you need approval to hodge podge them together and you'll often find the authorities don't like to grant approval or they make you do a lot of it over, especially the French.
If even possible I wouldn't care if I had to spew out $3-4000 more to get the hours done in the UK as the 0% poker tax would make up for that money-wise easily.
I must thank you for your help so far, it's really much appreciated!
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There is an alternative which nobody mentioned. If you cannot get out of the course without it costing you money or losing your J1. You should consider finishing the FAA course and end up with an FAA CPL/Multi IR. Ignore the CFI, CFII. Get as much multi time as possible.
Meanwhile start studying for the JAA ATPL writtens. Get them done and passed, then turn up over here and undergo a conversion course. The CPL is straightforward. The flight school trains you until you're ready and you take the CPL test. The test is done on a complex aircraft but is generally considered easier than the FAA Commmercial flight test. The IR requires a minimum of 15 hours training, much of it on a sim. It's important to emphasise 15 hours is the minimum and helps familarise you with the differences. It could take 20 or 30 hours before you're ready for the multi IR test.
On the other hand. I would advise forgetting about being a pilot and stick to poker. It's better paid, more secure, higher status, safer, more glamourous and has better long term prospects.
I'm only half joking.
On the point making a living on poker in Britain. I'm not too familiar with the scene in the UK but are you sure there is enough of it about for you to keep up the standard of living? Don't come here to Ireland by the way. We're pretty good at gambling and poker.
Meanwhile start studying for the JAA ATPL writtens. Get them done and passed, then turn up over here and undergo a conversion course. The CPL is straightforward. The flight school trains you until you're ready and you take the CPL test. The test is done on a complex aircraft but is generally considered easier than the FAA Commmercial flight test. The IR requires a minimum of 15 hours training, much of it on a sim. It's important to emphasise 15 hours is the minimum and helps familarise you with the differences. It could take 20 or 30 hours before you're ready for the multi IR test.
On the other hand. I would advise forgetting about being a pilot and stick to poker. It's better paid, more secure, higher status, safer, more glamourous and has better long term prospects.
I'm only half joking. On the point making a living on poker in Britain. I'm not too familiar with the scene in the UK but are you sure there is enough of it about for you to keep up the standard of living? Don't come here to Ireland by the way. We're pretty good at gambling and poker.
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My advice
My advice (as an airline pilot) - if you can make enough to fund an ATPL by playing poker then my advice is stick with it! The hours are probably better than those of most airline jobs and the money is evidently waaay better.
Seriously, keep playing poker and buy your own a/c fly when and where you want! Use the PPL you've already got!
Desk-pilot
Seriously, keep playing poker and buy your own a/c fly when and where you want! Use the PPL you've already got!
Desk-pilot
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Be VERY careful about not paying taxes on your poker winnings if you are Norwegian. There are quite a few things that need to be in place if you are to be excepted from Norwegian taxes, simply living abroad for a period of time, or taking out your winnings in another country, does NOT cut it. Contrary to popular belief, although the country the payment is issued in may not tax it, the Norwegian government, will, in most cases, and they are entitled to do so.
OTOH, the Norwegian government may probably never know and as such you may get away with it, because it will usually be your responsibility to report your earnings. But beware -- the N tax laws allow the system to come after you for up to ten years, whereas if you have a complaint, you can only go 3 years back. But I guess in practice, this kind of tax fraud is a calculated risk.
Edit: you might want to read this (norsk
Skatteetaten - Beskatning av pokergevinster
Skatteetaten - Informasjon til deg som har inntekt eller formue i utlandet
OTOH, the Norwegian government may probably never know and as such you may get away with it, because it will usually be your responsibility to report your earnings. But beware -- the N tax laws allow the system to come after you for up to ten years, whereas if you have a complaint, you can only go 3 years back. But I guess in practice, this kind of tax fraud is a calculated risk.
Edit: you might want to read this (norsk
Skatteetaten - Beskatning av pokergevinster
Skatteetaten - Informasjon til deg som har inntekt eller formue i utlandet
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quote: cut your losses since Bristol GS and Oxford DL don't use them
Bad advice methinks
If you use the CATS online groundschool without getting printed study guides then you can keep an alternative set of books for reference which you possess and not have to pay again
The Jeppessens are as good as any and this is the same situation as me when I did my course
Bad advice methinks
If you use the CATS online groundschool without getting printed study guides then you can keep an alternative set of books for reference which you possess and not have to pay again
The Jeppessens are as good as any and this is the same situation as me when I did my course
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I think answer to this question depends on how good you are (at poker).
If you are in $100p/h+ sort of territory I think you should probably be putting in as much time in at the tables/online as you can because we all know it's not going to be around forever. Flying, on the other hand, is. And there are no jobs about at the minute anyway. Make hay while the sun shines i think is the term!!
If you are in $100p/h+ sort of territory I think you should probably be putting in as much time in at the tables/online as you can because we all know it's not going to be around forever. Flying, on the other hand, is. And there are no jobs about at the minute anyway. Make hay while the sun shines i think is the term!!
I'm well aware that I'm making more now than I'll probably ever do.
This is why I want to get out of the US (Taxes for online poker pro's here are ridiculous, as are norwegian rules), and preferably to the UK. I will be playing when I'm not flying or studying, so I won't lose out on much profit, if any.
Be VERY careful about not paying taxes on your poker winnings if you are Norwegian. There are quite a few things that need to be in place if you are to be excepted from Norwegian taxes, simply living abroad for a period of time, or taking out your winnings in another country, does NOT cut it. Contrary to popular belief, although the country the payment is issued in may not tax it, the Norwegian government, will, in most cases, and they are entitled to do so.
PS. Just found out a close friend of my mom who happens to be an airline pilot just so happened to buy himself a brand new plane back home. She then told him I had just gotten my PPL, and so he said I could borrow his plane if I wanted to! I'm going to call him tomorrow and find out what plane it is and everything. I'm guessing I could have a few hours done in his plane if it comes down to that.
The chief of flight dept. wasn't sure whether I could buy block hours or not, but he told me to get back to him first thing tomorrow and he'd have an answer ready for me. He seemed way more positive than the school manager atleast.
Again, thank you guys so much for your help in this very confusing situation!
Last edited by pastis; 22nd Oct 2009 at 18:17.
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Allright! Today I got the good news I was hoping for, the school agreed to let me buy blockhours and stay on the J1 until I've acquired 150 hours.
So, my plan is now to get the 150 hours I need before 18. of december, go home for christmas, and then enroll on an ATPL course in UK come 2010. BTW school blockhour rate is $148 incl. fuel surcharge, so I'll be spending somewhere around $13.000 getting the hours done here.
So, my plan is now to get the 150 hours I need before 18. of december, go home for christmas, and then enroll on an ATPL course in UK come 2010. BTW school blockhour rate is $148 incl. fuel surcharge, so I'll be spending somewhere around $13.000 getting the hours done here.
